Leaf moves manufacture to China according to this official message in Hebrew
http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3273565,00.html
http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3273565,00.html
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Leaf moves manufacture to China?
- Thread starter evgeny
- Start date
Wages are not relevant, efficiency is. Without skilled, trained and motivated employees your company doesn't survive, there will be always somebody making it a little bit cheaper...
Over the last decades, shortsighted "shareholder-value"-thinking and the banks ruled many companies (even if you're not directly affected, as soon as you're a supplier or rely on dealers you are - see consumer electronics), investments into more sophisticated production technologies weren't made instead more and more production sites all over the world whereever labour is cheap, environmental laws are low and subventions are high made them slow, inefficient and inflexible - the exact opposite of what they claimed...
I know the myth of the powerful, modern Republic of China of millions engineers and ideal conditions for business-people, a dream for every banker and shareholder-value-oriented manager. The truth is: it comes at a high price: China is not a constitutional state, they do whatever they want and the social/political situation for the people who do the work in all the facilities is miserable and it's partly our fault that it stays that way: it's easy, it's so far away - we don't have to care, we have problems on our own...
Peking 2008 is Berlin 1936 (a big spectacle to convince/calm the world while a big regime in the background slowly collapses by the bubble it created) and I don't want to explain my Grandchildren why I was so stupid...
I know what they did to German companies which were tempted by low standards (ecological/safety) and low wages, what happened to their know-how, quality and I don't think Leaf will be any different.
Panasonic and Canon sourced some of their production back to Japan, that's why even a small G1 or 500D is "Made in Japan", companies that are succesful over decades never went to low-labour-countries in the first place.
I'll stop here because it becomes a little bit too off-topic and too political for a photographic board, anyway it's a complex (and important) topic and my limited English-skills don't allow me to explain it in detail but trust me, if that's true (I can't read Hebrew):
1. It won't save Leaf
2. Leaf won't become cheaper for customers
3. Quality/technology will be affected sooner or later
Over the last decades, shortsighted "shareholder-value"-thinking and the banks ruled many companies (even if you're not directly affected, as soon as you're a supplier or rely on dealers you are - see consumer electronics), investments into more sophisticated production technologies weren't made instead more and more production sites all over the world whereever labour is cheap, environmental laws are low and subventions are high made them slow, inefficient and inflexible - the exact opposite of what they claimed...
I know the myth of the powerful, modern Republic of China of millions engineers and ideal conditions for business-people, a dream for every banker and shareholder-value-oriented manager. The truth is: it comes at a high price: China is not a constitutional state, they do whatever they want and the social/political situation for the people who do the work in all the facilities is miserable and it's partly our fault that it stays that way: it's easy, it's so far away - we don't have to care, we have problems on our own...
Peking 2008 is Berlin 1936 (a big spectacle to convince/calm the world while a big regime in the background slowly collapses by the bubble it created) and I don't want to explain my Grandchildren why I was so stupid...
I know what they did to German companies which were tempted by low standards (ecological/safety) and low wages, what happened to their know-how, quality and I don't think Leaf will be any different.
Panasonic and Canon sourced some of their production back to Japan, that's why even a small G1 or 500D is "Made in Japan", companies that are succesful over decades never went to low-labour-countries in the first place.
I'll stop here because it becomes a little bit too off-topic and too political for a photographic board, anyway it's a complex (and important) topic and my limited English-skills don't allow me to explain it in detail but trust me, if that's true (I can't read Hebrew):
1. It won't save Leaf
2. Leaf won't become cheaper for customers
3. Quality/technology will be affected sooner or later
Graham Mitchell
New member
Bad move, in my opinion.
S
smei_ch
Guest
An automatic translation tells that Kodak is shutting down the professional imaging division?? VERY irritating....
http://translate.google.com/transla...L-3273565,00.html&sl=iw&tl=en&history_state0=
http://translate.google.com/transla...L-3273565,00.html&sl=iw&tl=en&history_state0=
Last edited:
D
ddk
Guest
And unfortunate for us all!
I'm wondering who's going to get hurt most and pay the price, Leaf owners, or Phase and Hassy owners using Kodak chips...
ptomsu
Workshop Member
If this is true it is for sure not good for LEAF. Not move to China or to India or in future to Africa (because of cheap labor costs) will be the right solution. Has basically NOTHING to do with photography, but general global economy.
All these moves will only help very short term, but mid term it becomes a disaster! Sorry to see that Leaf is going down that road, but there were enough signs if you look back to their success in the MF market. The leaders are currently Phase followed by Hasselblad and maybe Leica in the future if they do everything right.
But Leaf was loosing ground and they have NO competitive products right now. Ar least not what the MF "mass market" is asking for in order to make enough money. Moving their manufaturing to China will not solve their innovatins problem
All these moves will only help very short term, but mid term it becomes a disaster! Sorry to see that Leaf is going down that road, but there were enough signs if you look back to their success in the MF market. The leaders are currently Phase followed by Hasselblad and maybe Leica in the future if they do everything right.
But Leaf was loosing ground and they have NO competitive products right now. Ar least not what the MF "mass market" is asking for in order to make enough money. Moving their manufaturing to China will not solve their innovatins problem
ptomsu
Workshop Member
I heard many scary things about Kodak and their professional imaging business in the recent months.
I hope this is all not true, because if true
1) we will be left with Dalsa and Leaf
2) Leica will loose their sensor manufacturer for their products which will most probably make them close down their business.
Tough times indeed :thumbdown:
D
ddk
Guest
If this is true it is for sure not good for LEAF. Not move to China or to India or in future to Africa (because of cheap labor costs) will be the right solution. Has basically NOTHING to do with photography, but general global economy.
All these moves will only help very short term, but mid term it becomes a disaster! Sorry to see that Leaf is going down that road, but there were enough signs if you look back to their success in the MF market. The leaders are currently Phase followed by Hasselblad and maybe Leica in the future if they do everything right.
But Leaf was loosing ground and they have NO competitive products right now. Ar least not what the MF "mass market" is asking for in order to make enough money. Moving their manufaturing to China will not solve their innovatins problem
What you seem to forget is that both Hassy and Phase depend on Kodak chips for most of their line and the S2 if I'm not mistaken, is based on a Kodak chip too.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Very true indeed!
But I see at least a clear trend to Dalsa in Phase products and also Hassi has already initiated this move. With Leica this will be a more serious issue, because it might delay their S2 introduction by another 12 months - which might be finally better if we could get the 40MP Dalsa chip in the S2 instead of the Kodak one
No fan of The PRC by any means. Don't even think the bloody olympics should have been held there - or in any non-democratic state. Have in Canada these idiotic commercials asking for 'support' for a CDN Human Right Museum (wtf would that look like?) - after sending our athletes to the PRC. makes my blood boil when I hear it. Anyway...
A would agree with a lot of what georgl says - on top of that, as a manufacturer locating there or targeting the PRC market (which often requires a local plant) you tend to make aggressive tech-sharing concessions with local 'partners' whose sole goal is to gain access to your tech and eventually develop their own variants.
In prior life saw deals with PRC leadership/business community in telecoms hardware sector. All I can say is The PRC political/business leadership may be nasty _____, but stupid they ain't. Better business savvy than many MBAs I sat in class and worked with afterwards.
Of course it helps when you a) have a HUGE consumer market and low-cos/hassle employment base everyone wants access to and B) can set and flex the 'rules' as you see fit and have no one to answer to.
You'd see newbie (with the PRC) negotiators come back from deals with this "what it just happened/what did I just do..?" look on their faces you often see associated with "I was anal-probed" alien abductee claimants.
This move is of course predicated on where Leaf sees their business going. Lower-end? I would agree, my earlier flippant post aside. It doesn't bode well.
A would agree with a lot of what georgl says - on top of that, as a manufacturer locating there or targeting the PRC market (which often requires a local plant) you tend to make aggressive tech-sharing concessions with local 'partners' whose sole goal is to gain access to your tech and eventually develop their own variants.
In prior life saw deals with PRC leadership/business community in telecoms hardware sector. All I can say is The PRC political/business leadership may be nasty _____, but stupid they ain't. Better business savvy than many MBAs I sat in class and worked with afterwards.
Of course it helps when you a) have a HUGE consumer market and low-cos/hassle employment base everyone wants access to and B) can set and flex the 'rules' as you see fit and have no one to answer to.
You'd see newbie (with the PRC) negotiators come back from deals with this "what it just happened/what did I just do..?" look on their faces you often see associated with "I was anal-probed" alien abductee claimants.
This move is of course predicated on where Leaf sees their business going. Lower-end? I would agree, my earlier flippant post aside. It doesn't bode well.
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
Reading it in Hebrew:
The message states that Kodak Israel is closing down and moving to China. As Leaf is a seperate company owned by Creo which happens to be owned by Kodak I very much doubt that the Kodak digital unit closing down has anything to do with Leaf. Bit of overhype methinks and I'm sure Yair will confirm that.
If Lego Denmark was to close down and move production to China I doubt anyone would say that Phase One had moved with them even though P1 is owned by lego, this is no different....
The message states that Kodak Israel is closing down and moving to China. As Leaf is a seperate company owned by Creo which happens to be owned by Kodak I very much doubt that the Kodak digital unit closing down has anything to do with Leaf. Bit of overhype methinks and I'm sure Yair will confirm that.
If Lego Denmark was to close down and move production to China I doubt anyone would say that Phase One had moved with them even though P1 is owned by lego, this is no different....
Thanks Ben!
So Leaf is lucky, it's "only" Kodak Israel - whatever that means!?
But what's next? What crazy ideas do the Kodak managers have next? When they end their sensor-business, we are in big trouble... Maybe Dr. Kaufmann should buy Dalsa...
"P1 is owned by lego"
Seriously? That would mean that some of us play with the same toys since decades! ;-)
So Leaf is lucky, it's "only" Kodak Israel - whatever that means!?
But what's next? What crazy ideas do the Kodak managers have next? When they end their sensor-business, we are in big trouble... Maybe Dr. Kaufmann should buy Dalsa...
"P1 is owned by lego"
Seriously? That would mean that some of us play with the same toys since decades! ;-)
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Starts slowly making me really scary who is owned by whom ....
The idea to buy Dalsa by Dr. Kaufmann would make lot of sense - he would then also own today's most advanced sensor technology - not only the know how how to build and design a fine camera system.
And further he could produce sensors for other MF companies as well as military etc, which definitely will be a great business in the future. And finally he could finance projects like the Leica S2 with all that other business.
Maybe he is smart enough and has enough money for this :thumbup:
Especially in these times, stock cooperations tend to act stupid/shortsighted, propably Kodak/Dalsa would sell significant know-How and resources to gain a small profit for the next quarter...
I'm wondering anyway that Germany has no problem with relying on foreign producers to crucial elements, even of the space/defence industry - something that the USA or Israel would never do (that's why they have their sensor fabs), the manufacturing/design know-how, the tools, lithographic systems, masks and wafers are there but no sensors!
I was always wondering about a possible relationship with ARRI, they have a custom designed sensor (developed by Frauenhofer) but manufactured in the US... They are currently working on a new digital cinema camera and Leica would be an ideal partner for sharing electronic components/R&D (same/higher quality-standards but entirely differenty markets).
By the way, the DALSA-fab (which they bought cheap from Philips after their 6Mp-full-frame-desaster) is just 200km from Wetzlar (Eindhoven).
I'm wondering anyway that Germany has no problem with relying on foreign producers to crucial elements, even of the space/defence industry - something that the USA or Israel would never do (that's why they have their sensor fabs), the manufacturing/design know-how, the tools, lithographic systems, masks and wafers are there but no sensors!
I was always wondering about a possible relationship with ARRI, they have a custom designed sensor (developed by Frauenhofer) but manufactured in the US... They are currently working on a new digital cinema camera and Leica would be an ideal partner for sharing electronic components/R&D (same/higher quality-standards but entirely differenty markets).
By the way, the DALSA-fab (which they bought cheap from Philips after their 6Mp-full-frame-desaster) is just 200km from Wetzlar (Eindhoven).
Dr. Kaufmann has stated that he has no intention of selling Leica, but rather that he has a very long view for the company (10+ years). Since he owns more than 97% of all common stock, I'd say a takeover/buyout isn't too much of a concern.
David
Dr. Kaufmann's holding company ACM has a project in the works: Leica Cinema. No details were given, just the name. This was presented in his keynote to the LHSA in Rochester in Oct. 2007. Your guess is as good as mine.
Also, according to the S2 product managers, they are not ruling out using DALSA for future projects.
David
Dale, while you may very well be right (re: Kaufmann sticking by his earlier 'not for sale' statements), having my formative years in the M&A business , suffice it to say I put little (read zip) stock in ANY CEO's statements regarding what s/he will/will not ever do with their firm - regardless of how much/little stock they own ;>
What is said for public consumption usually varies, shall we say, greatly for what is happening behind closed doors. Circumstances can change over overnight, the right number are discussed, etc., etc...
Not saying it's a good or bad idea, but only time will tell.
What is said for public consumption usually varies, shall we say, greatly for what is happening behind closed doors. Circumstances can change over overnight, the right number are discussed, etc., etc...
Not saying it's a good or bad idea, but only time will tell.
carstenw
Active member
I can think of two things off-hand which he might mean with that, and both makes sense. One is lenses for digital projectors for cinemas, which makes sense in the context of the new Pradovit, and the other is lenses for movie cameras, which also makes sense, and would put Leica up against companies like Zeiss.