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Blimey, new 'Phase look-alikes' with LIVE PREVIEW!

Graham Mitchell

New member
$1Bn profit would have been nice, but
it wasn't so.
actually DID make some money about $15million. Turnover in 2008 was under $1Bn ($3/4 B)
2009 will be an interesting year to watch for all.

Victor
Thanks for correction. Yes I meant sales, not profit - they made an EBIT of $50 million in 2008.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
thomas - Sometimes I feel like we are more speculating about worst case scenarios of MF-back and camera manufacturers vs. discussing the equipment and photography. In one way it might include some interesting and important information but mostly it becomes a lot of negative speculation.
I go further and my theory is that this pessimistic way of thinking and speculating and talking things bad is one of the reasons why the economical and financial crisis has come so fast and massive. I wonder why many people are so pessimistic those days. It almost seems that its more fun to discuss the bad things vs discussing the good things. Like rather discussing the posibility a back manufacturer might get some financial problems vs discussing the output of the back, rather discussing Leica M8 flaws vs the great IQ this little camera delivers, etc etc. I wonder why.
Wonder why? Well, this gear is unbelievably expensive and pretty complex ... representing a huge financial decision in terms of system purchase and commitment on the part of the buyer. All at a time when most people are suffering from at least financial uncertainty, if not direct consequences of the economy. IF one is going to make the leap of faith I would think the health of the company they were going to commit their money to would be of some concern wouldn't you?
 

thomas

New member
"t-streng": you are right (in part - the second passage is nonsense... at least as to me).
and "fotografz": you are right as well ;-)

My snippy comment wasn't meant so serious.
It's just ... whenever there is something announced by Phase One (or in this case Mamiya) "foto-z" steps in and plays the part of a Sinar dealer or promoter. That's a bit annoying (and implicit it's a kind of negativity as well).
Then again, yes, I care about future service and upgrade paths with regard to the DB (with regard to the camera I don't care so much). And - totally subjective - I feel more "safe" with Phase (or would feel more "safe" with Hasselblad) rather than with Sinar or even Leaf currently.
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
It's just ... whenever there is something announced by Phase One (or in this case Mamiya) "foto-z" steps in and plays the part of a Sinar dealer or promoter. That's a bit annoying.
Hmmm, I could point out that about half the forum members seem to be strongly biased towards a particular brand (I won't mention names) - why do you single me out? It's natural to recommend what you know, and I don't think it's an issue as long as you make a valid case, e.g. "If you are planning to do a lot of long exposures, then get a Phase" or "if you want the longest warranty get a Sinar" are constructive comments. "Buy brand XXX because I think they are awesome and all my friends have one" is not.

Secondly, correcting incorrect statements or inferences is not playing a dealer - it is in everyone's interests to have the most correct information available. (Or even pointing out a MUCH better deal from a competitor). I don't see how anyone could object to that unless they had an agenda of their own. Again, I know more about Sinar products so I am naturally going to notice factually incorrect statements made about their products than for example Leaf. I have never been on Sinar's payroll, btw.
 
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thomas

New member
Hmmm, I could point out that about half the forum members seem to be strongly biased towards a particular brand
that is certainly true.

It's natural to recommend what you know, and I don't think it's an issue as long as you make a valid case, e.g. "If you are planning to do a lot of long exposures, then get a Phase" or "if you want the longest warranty get a Sinar" are constructive comments.
yes, of course. But you comment even if none asks...

Secondly, correcting incorrect statements or inferences is not playing a dealer - it is in everyone's interests to have the most correct information available.
Again - you comment even a price list. There is nothing to "correct"... as long as the prices are "true".
But tell me about these "adapter options" for the eM54LV (that count with additional ~ €1K officially). Is the adapter for, say, Mamiya or Contax included in the nearly "half of the price" of the M22? (I really don't know.)
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
Again - you comment even a price list.
Well as I said I do think it's in everyone's interest to be informed about cheaper deals on very similar products. If someone were about to buy a ballhead for $500 and I pointed out that an equally good ballhead with triple the warranty was available for $250, then I doubt anyone would complain - it would be seen as doing them a favour!

But tell me about these "adapter options" for the eM54LV (that count with additional ~ €1K officially). Is the adapter for, say, Mamiya or Contax included in the nearly "half of the price" of the M22? (I really don't know.)
From the prices I've seen, the e54 is about €6K (ex tax, which is what pros would pay). The adapters range in price from about €465 to €1406 and would be extra unless you can do a deal.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I was correcting the inference that Sinar backs were made by a company on the verge of bankruptcy. This is far from the truth. And yes of course they are involved in many other activities but that's the whole point - it's a diverse and healthy company making these backs.
It's the Sinar division that concerns me. Here in the States it always seems like a very quiet brand. We don't hear much about them outside the forums and such. Nothing like what goes on with Phase and Hassy. These brands seem to be in many stores both retail and dealers. I think Sinar is just more popular over in Europe than here. Just a perception that I believe we see.
 

PeterA

Well-known member


if Phase One could ever 'make' anything like this ( instead of just piggybacking other people's work) - I might take thier stuff a tad more seriously. :D

In the meantime I am too busy making shots and printing them with the stuff that works for me - to bother too much with the fan boy stuff.

Cruel? Smarty Pants? maybe - but hey...Phase One is the number one HOT AIR balloon in the market. Get over it guys...there are real camera companies and there are ..umm 'marketing and sales' noise makers. Enjoy the extra megapixels ....like they make one IOTA of difference ..
:ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

gogopix

Subscriber


if Phase One could ever 'make' anything like this ( instead of just piggybacking other people's work) - I might take thier stuff a tad more seriously. :D

In the meantime I am too busy making shots and printing them with the stuff that works for me - to bother too much with the fan boy stuff.

Cruel? Smarty Pants? maybe - but hey...Phase One is the number one HOT AIR balloon in the market. Get over it guys...there are real camera companies and there are ..umm 'marketing and sales' noise makers. Enjoy the extra megapixels ....like they make one IOTA of difference ..
:ROTFL::ROTFL:
For a small company with a hand made product, they may be smart to leave the machine shop action to the experts-alpa, kapture group etc. There is every bit a precision, maybe more and getting the focus correct is not trivial. Phase I don't think has the experience.
But what they have a good understanding of is sensors and SW. I believe early Leica SW (DMR? M?) was built by Phase. C1 is a very sophisticated product and others took quite a while to catch up. They buy the sensors; seems their core competence is FW and SW.

The Phamyia, Mamase re-badging (both ways!) may just help each. The better they do, the more profit, the better product. For once I guess we would like to see a growth, not a death spiral in this business.

Now, about that S2....:bugeyes:

regards
Victor
 

carstenw

Active member
yes, of course. But you comment even if none asks...
I have to agree with Graham here, we hear on this forum all day and all night about Phase One backs and how great they are, and about Mamiya/Phase One cameras, and how sharp the D lenses are, but for some reason, Hasselblad proponents are defensive, Leaf comments are more or less ignored, but often when someone mentions Sinar backs, there are snide remarks about playing dealer, and so on.

IMO, all comments about all backs and cameras are welcome. Each of us is perfectly capable of filtering the stuff which doesn't interest us.

But tell me about these "adapter options" for the eM54LV (that count with additional ~ €1K officially). Is the adapter for, say, Mamiya or Contax included in the nearly "half of the price" of the M22? (I really don't know.)
Most are around €1000 (compared to €3000 for a mount-swap for a Phase One out of warranty), but the neat thing is that they can be user-swapped in a few minutes, so you could have one back for Hasselblad V and Contax 645, for example. The adapter is not included normally, but the e75LV deal does include one, i.e. back and adapter for €7500, plus VAT, in case you pay that.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
For a small company with a hand made product, they may be smart to leave the machine shop action to the experts-alpa, kapture group etc. There is every bit a precision, maybe more and getting the focus correct is not trivial. Phase I don't think has the experience.
But what they have a good understanding of is sensors and SW. I believe early Leica SW (DMR? M?) was built by Phase. C1 is a very sophisticated product and others took quite a while to catch up. They buy the sensors; seems their core competence is FW and SW.

The Phamyia, Mamase re-badging (both ways!) may just help each. The better they do, the more profit, the better product. For once I guess we would like to see a growth, not a death spiral in this business.

Now, about that S2....:bugeyes:

regards
Victor
FYI, the DMR was a joint venture/supplier relationship with Imacon (i.e., now Hasselblad) ... and when Hasselblad and Imacon became one, the relationship ended leaving Leica and it's owners high and dry. Probably one reason why Leica took everything they could in house on the S2.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Re the brand war debate, I see both sides.

In threads discussing the particulars of one brand it can be irritating when someone pops in with "don't forget about brand X because it does A, B, and C better!" it can sound like a sales pitch. OTOH, in most of the threads it's appropriate to discuss any brand, and adding a similar comment is clearly helpful, though it's usually worded more like, "I chose brand X because it does A, B and C better and those are important benefits to me." And IMO the difference in how one words a response is not trivial to setting the tone of the post...

The other aspect is number of users of a particular brand... In our case, about the only regularly vocal Sinar user is Graham, so he unfairly becomes labeled the poster boy for them. By contrast, we have maybe a dozen regular vocal Phase users, so when they speak it (again unfairly) usually starts to sound like a fan club. But the reality in both cases is these folks are just trying to share their opinions toward the goal of helping others, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL ABOUT here at GetDPI!

I think every regular poster here behaves very well, especially when compared to other forums, and personally I do not want to see that change --- EVERYBODY is entitled to share their opinion and be treated respectfully even when there is disagreement. In the end, I think we'd all agree on the same goal: it is the image that counts and how you get there is less important than what you got. But to get there, we all want to choose gear that allows us to get there as efficiently AND as enjoyably as possible. So to use a weak analogy, just like when getting to point B in our cars, some of us want to slide through the turns in the latest sports car while others want to cruise casually in a discontinued classic with the top down while still others want to take the boulder-strewn dirt bypass in an SUV...

And from my point of view, it's all good :)
 

John Black

Active member
Carsten - in the US the Sinar backs are quite expensive. That 6k Euro price sounds sexy on the forums, but once it gets to the US soil the prices are quite different. They use a high Euro to USD conversion factor, so that back is more like $8200 (probably higher now than when I checked last fall/winter). Next, SinarBron adds ~25% for distribution, so now $10k. And the adapter plates are $1500-$2500. "My" price was going to be ~$11,800 for a Contax AF mount - and that's for an old product with a very outdated LCD screen.

Meanwhile a new Hasselblad H3DII-31 set-up without the 80mm lens is $12,995. It's a bit apples & oranges due to crop factor, but in effect you're getting the H3DII-31 body for $1k. And now there a Mamiya DL28 bundles for $9990. In comparison the Sinar price / benefit / value offer is out of balance. A 6000 number sounds intriguing, but with a couple phone calls, one quickly realizes that's not how it plays out in this market. Add on top of that the uncertainty regarding surrounding F&H, Leaf and the HY6, spending $11-12k on a 54LV back is an unsettling feeling (IMO).
 

thomas

New member
I have to agree with Graham here, we hear on this forum all day and all night about Phase One backs and how great they are
it belongs to you to see it that way and that's okay (really okay!). And with regard to this particular forum you might be right. I mixed my perception with contributions on LuLa... so my fault.
As to how great Phase products are on my part you'll never hear (read) something like that. I like my Phase backs and C1 but my list of flaws goes from Munich to Hamburg and if asked I'll report about it.

the neat thing is that they can be user-swapped in a few minutes, so you could have one back for Hasselblad V and Contax 645, for example.
am I right to assume that in this case there is no communication from camera to back through the camera contacts but through an additional cable? Which EXIF data the RAW files contain then? ISO and exposure or just ISO?
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
am I right to assume that in this case there is no communication from camera to back through the camera contacts but through an additional cable? Which EXIF data the RAW files contain then? ISO and exposure or just ISO?
Some adapters support communication with the camera, but others do not (in cases where the camera itself does not support this, such as the Hasselblad V or Rollei 6008). I only have ISO recorded in my EXIF - that would be one of the improvements I could look forward to if I upgrade to the Hy6.
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
Carsten - in the US the Sinar backs are quite expensive. That 6k Euro price sounds sexy on the forums, but once it gets to the US soil the prices are quite different. They use a high Euro to USD conversion factor, so that back is more like $8200
Of course there's nothing (afaik) to stop you picking up an e75LV + adapter in Europe for $10,400 (i just checked today's exchange rate). Everyone is free to decide their own priorities in terms of price v. convenience.
 

thomas

New member
Some adapters support communication with the camera, but others do not (in cases where the camera itself does not support this, such as the Hasselblad V or Rollei 6008).
Do you happen to know if on Contax the aperture is in the EXIF as well?

I only have ISO recorded in my EXIF - that would be one of the improvements I could look forward to if I upgrade to the Hy6.
I honestly keep my fingers crossed for you. Would be a real pity if a great brand like Rollei would disappear.
Well... somewhere an old B35 lies around here :)
 

carstenw

Active member
John, I know the situation isn't the same in the states. Often it is the other way around, so I guess we all have to filter what makes no sense, and PeterA has to filter everything, being in Australia :D But specifically, I was addressing "thomas" (thomas, bist du tho_mas auf LL?), and he is in Germany, where the current deal is.

I don't yet know if the Contax stores more than EXIF in the Sinar back's files' EXIF, but I presume it stores shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and various strings, since it is able to write these values to a film (!), and has a full data connection to the back. It should be verified though.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Re the brand war debate, I see both sides.

In threads discussing the particulars of one brand it can be irritating when someone pops in with "don't forget about brand X because it does A, B, and C better!" it can sound like a sales pitch. OTOH, in most of the threads it's appropriate to discuss any brand, and adding a similar comment is clearly helpful, though it's usually worded more like, "I chose brand X because it does A, B and C better and those are important benefits to me." And IMO the difference in how one words a response is not trivial to setting the tone of the post...

The other aspect is number of users of a particular brand... In our case, about the only regularly vocal Sinar user is Graham, so he unfairly becomes labeled the poster boy for them. By contrast, we have maybe a dozen regular vocal Phase users, so when they speak it (again unfairly) usually starts to sound like a fan club. But the reality in both cases is these folks are just trying to share their opinions toward the goal of helping others, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL ABOUT here at GetDPI!

I think every regular poster here behaves very well, especially when compared to other forums, and personally I do not want to see that change --- EVERYBODY is entitled to share their opinion and be treated respectfully even when there is disagreement. In the end, I think we'd all agree on the same goal: it is the image that counts and how you get there is less important than what you got. But to get there, we all want to choose gear that allows us to get there as efficiently AND as enjoyably as possible. So to use a weak analogy, just like when getting to point B in our cars, some of us want to slide through the turns in the latest sports car while others want to cruise casually in a discontinued classic with the top down while still others want to take the boulder-strewn dirt bypass in an SUV...

And from my point of view, it's all good :)
I'm running out the door but had to reply here. I agree about 150 percent here if that is possible. ALL MF shooters are welcome and ALL are entitled to share there opinion. Some are just more vocal than others and it may seem the balance is one way or the other. Me i shoot what works for me period and if i need to switch systems I will on a dime but I like to stay involved in all systems , others do not and that is perfectly fine.
 
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