Now this is interesting in about a thousand ways...
Now this is interesting in about a thousand ways...
OR re-badged P20+, P25+ and P30+ for the EU market?
Hmm, you can get a Sinar e54LV for nearly half the price of the M22. The Sinar has a 3 year warranty, live view, adapter options, built-in solid state memory (3GB I think), 1s per frame v 1.5s for the M22. That's what I call a no-brainer
Here I thought the 9 micron sensor was no longer being made. Sounds more like a rebirth /rebadge.
thomas - Sometimes I feel like we are more speculating about worst case scenarios of MF-back and camera manufacturers vs. discussing the equipment and photography. In one way it might include some interesting and important information but mostly it becomes a lot of negative speculation.
I go further and my theory is that this pessimistic way of thinking and speculating and talking things bad is one of the reasons why the economical and financial crisis has come so fast and massive. I wonder why many people are so pessimistic those days. It almost seems that its more fun to discuss the bad things vs discussing the good things. Like rather discussing the posibility a back manufacturer might get some financial problems vs discussing the output of the back, rather discussing Leica M8 flaws vs the great IQ this little camera delivers, etc etc. I wonder why.
To me, ...."2.2" LCDs featuring a Live Preview mode" implies that the preview is available on the LCD, which if these are merely the re-badged items they appear to be clearly isn't the case... anyone know any more?
I think the live-preview on the lcd is wishful thinking on our part. I'd think that if Phase One had this capability we'd certainly hear about it and not on a Mamiya badged back. Of course I've been wrong before - just ask my wife...
According to Doug at Capture Integration the live preview is the same as the phase backs.
Not LCD live preview but tethered preview on the computer screen.
These backs do NOT have on-LCD Live Preview (authoritative and absolutely certain statement).
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Not sure of USA pricing yet, but they are going to be sold through any and all Mamiya digital dealers who want them.
Obviously missing in the lineup are P45+ and new P40+ and P65+. This is an interesting approach by Mamiya and Phase. First the Mamiya 645AFDIII got re-badged as the PhaseOne 645AFD, then the lenses became Phase One, now it's going to other way with Phase One backs getting the Mamiya moniker.
When I get pricing, I'll post info.
As an interesting footnote, I just received another MAC Group dealer memo just a few minutes ago about refurb/demo DL28 and DL33 kits (with Leaf Aptus backs) for $9,995 and $12,995 respectively. So, this Mamiya/Leaf arrangement might be coming to an end (unsurprisingly).
Leica Store Miami
"t-streng": you are right (in part - the second passage is nonsense... at least as to me).
and "fotografz": you are right as well ;-)
My snippy comment wasn't meant so serious.
It's just ... whenever there is something announced by Phase One (or in this case Mamiya) "foto-z" steps in and plays the part of a Sinar dealer or promoter. That's a bit annoying (and implicit it's a kind of negativity as well).
Then again, yes, I care about future service and upgrade paths with regard to the DB (with regard to the camera I don't care so much). And - totally subjective - I feel more "safe" with Phase (or would feel more "safe" with Hasselblad) rather than with Sinar or even Leaf currently.
Secondly, correcting incorrect statements or inferences is not playing a dealer - it is in everyone's interests to have the most correct information available. (Or even pointing out a MUCH better deal from a competitor). I don't see how anyone could object to that unless they had an agenda of their own. Again, I know more about Sinar products so I am naturally going to notice factually incorrect statements made about their products than for example Leaf. I have never been on Sinar's payroll, btw.
Last edited by Graham Mitchell; 16th June 2009 at 03:09.
yes, of course. But you comment even if none asks...It's natural to recommend what you know, and I don't think it's an issue as long as you make a valid case, e.g. "If you are planning to do a lot of long exposures, then get a Phase" or "if you want the longest warranty get a Sinar" are constructive comments.
Again - you comment even a price list. There is nothing to "correct"... as long as the prices are "true".Secondly, correcting incorrect statements or inferences is not playing a dealer - it is in everyone's interests to have the most correct information available.
But tell me about these "adapter options" for the eM54LV (that count with additional ~ €1K officially). Is the adapter for, say, Mamiya or Contax included in the nearly "half of the price" of the M22? (I really don't know.)
if Phase One could ever 'make' anything like this ( instead of just piggybacking other people's work) - I might take thier stuff a tad more seriously.
In the meantime I am too busy making shots and printing them with the stuff that works for me - to bother too much with the fan boy stuff.
Cruel? Smarty Pants? maybe - but hey...Phase One is the number one HOT AIR balloon in the market. Get over it guys...there are real camera companies and there are ..umm 'marketing and sales' noise makers. Enjoy the extra megapixels ....like they make one IOTA of difference ..
But what they have a good understanding of is sensors and SW. I believe early Leica SW (DMR? M?) was built by Phase. C1 is a very sophisticated product and others took quite a while to catch up. They buy the sensors; seems their core competence is FW and SW.
The Phamyia, Mamase re-badging (both ways!) may just help each. The better they do, the more profit, the better product. For once I guess we would like to see a growth, not a death spiral in this business.
Now, about that S2....
IMO, all comments about all backs and cameras are welcome. Each of us is perfectly capable of filtering the stuff which doesn't interest us.
Most are around €1000 (compared to €3000 for a mount-swap for a Phase One out of warranty), but the neat thing is that they can be user-swapped in a few minutes, so you could have one back for Hasselblad V and Contax 645, for example. The adapter is not included normally, but the e75LV deal does include one, i.e. back and adapter for €7500, plus VAT, in case you pay that.But tell me about these "adapter options" for the eM54LV (that count with additional ~ €1K officially). Is the adapter for, say, Mamiya or Contax included in the nearly "half of the price" of the M22? (I really don't know.)
Last edited by carstenw; 16th June 2009 at 06:56.
Re the brand war debate, I see both sides.
In threads discussing the particulars of one brand it can be irritating when someone pops in with "don't forget about brand X because it does A, B, and C better!" it can sound like a sales pitch. OTOH, in most of the threads it's appropriate to discuss any brand, and adding a similar comment is clearly helpful, though it's usually worded more like, "I chose brand X because it does A, B and C better and those are important benefits to me." And IMO the difference in how one words a response is not trivial to setting the tone of the post...
The other aspect is number of users of a particular brand... In our case, about the only regularly vocal Sinar user is Graham, so he unfairly becomes labeled the poster boy for them. By contrast, we have maybe a dozen regular vocal Phase users, so when they speak it (again unfairly) usually starts to sound like a fan club. But the reality in both cases is these folks are just trying to share their opinions toward the goal of helping others, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL ABOUT here at GetDPI!
I think every regular poster here behaves very well, especially when compared to other forums, and personally I do not want to see that change --- EVERYBODY is entitled to share their opinion and be treated respectfully even when there is disagreement. In the end, I think we'd all agree on the same goal: it is the image that counts and how you get there is less important than what you got. But to get there, we all want to choose gear that allows us to get there as efficiently AND as enjoyably as possible. So to use a weak analogy, just like when getting to point B in our cars, some of us want to slide through the turns in the latest sports car while others want to cruise casually in a discontinued classic with the top down while still others want to take the boulder-strewn dirt bypass in an SUV...
And from my point of view, it's all good
Carsten - in the US the Sinar backs are quite expensive. That 6k Euro price sounds sexy on the forums, but once it gets to the US soil the prices are quite different. They use a high Euro to USD conversion factor, so that back is more like $8200 (probably higher now than when I checked last fall/winter). Next, SinarBron adds ~25% for distribution, so now $10k. And the adapter plates are $1500-$2500. "My" price was going to be ~$11,800 for a Contax AF mount - and that's for an old product with a very outdated LCD screen.
Meanwhile a new Hasselblad H3DII-31 set-up without the 80mm lens is $12,995. It's a bit apples & oranges due to crop factor, but in effect you're getting the H3DII-31 body for $1k. And now there a Mamiya DL28 bundles for $9990. In comparison the Sinar price / benefit / value offer is out of balance. A 6000 number sounds intriguing, but with a couple phone calls, one quickly realizes that's not how it plays out in this market. Add on top of that the uncertainty regarding surrounding F&H, Leaf and the HY6, spending $11-12k on a 54LV back is an unsettling feeling (IMO).
As to how great Phase products are on my part you'll never hear (read) something like that. I like my Phase backs and C1 but my list of flaws goes from Munich to Hamburg and if asked I'll report about it.
John, I know the situation isn't the same in the states. Often it is the other way around, so I guess we all have to filter what makes no sense, and PeterA has to filter everything, being in Australia But specifically, I was addressing "thomas" (thomas, bist du tho_mas auf LL?), and he is in Germany, where the current deal is.
I don't yet know if the Contax stores more than EXIF in the Sinar back's files' EXIF, but I presume it stores shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and various strings, since it is able to write these values to a film (!), and has a full data connection to the back. It should be verified though.
that the Contax can write it to the film has nothing to say here as the film back has the 9 contacts the camera has. The Phase backs with Contax mount have these 9 contacts as well so the aperture (shutter speed and ISO, too, of course) is stored in the EXIF.I don't yet know if the Contax stores more than EXIF in the Sinar back's files' EXIF, but I presume it stores shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and various strings, since it is able to write these values to a film (!), and has a full data connection to the back. It should be verified though.
Somewhere I read (or heard?) that there was knowlegde exchange between Phase and Contax in the construction phase of the Contax. Don't know if anything of this is true... anyway the Contax with a Phase back is a unity, it works with a digiback more or less like with a filmback (just slower... depending on the back); e.g. you set ISO at the back and the Contax metering considers the ISO (which is trivial but obviously not possible with all cameras). And no cable needed of course.
I meant only that the camera is clearly in possession of all of this information. I didn't know that the Contax worked so well with Phase backs, but it doesn't surprise me. I am 99% sure that the Contax adapter for the Sinar back has electronics in it, so I presume that the communication is full. Anyway, verification is of course still necessary.
Aperture in the EXIFs is great to use presets for lens corrections in the RAW software. I stored colour cast-, CA- and vignetting-corrections together as presets for all my Contax lenses at all apertures... it's comfortable working.
Leica Camera and Phase One Form Strategic Alliance
Solms/Copenhagen/Cologne, September 22, 2008 (PHOTOKINA) - Leica Camera AG and Phase One A/S have agreed to enter into a long-term strategic alliance.
Both companies have agreed to enter into a long-term strategic alliance and are in mutual agreement on the terms of close future cooperation in the technical development and marketing of premium products for the professional photography segment. The objective is to offer photographers innovative high-end solutions that guarantee the greatest possible creative freedom and set standards in terms of performance, quality and technological maturity. Close cooperation has also been decided upon for the expansion of effective service and marketing structures......
I don't care if Graham's views are biased or not. I appreciate that he has a lot of experience with some of the Sinar products, adapters, etc. and is willing to share it. Without him doing so I would know even less about the Sinar product line.
Most of us tend to have biases – some logical for our uses, and some emotional. I think it's best to take all of the posted info as simply an expression of someone's own biases and experiences as they use certain products in their world of photography.
Plenty of salt to go around for all.
Even though its nice to have fstop and exposure in the EXIF I have to say its mostly informative. I dont think exposure does any corrections based on those infos and frankly I have never felt the need for any corrections so far.
Sometimes I don't apply corrections but often it's great to have them stored (instead of recreating again and again)... and then it's essential to know the aperture.
attachment 1: before/after
attachment 2: my lens settings
Last edited by thomas; 15th January 2011 at 07:38.
why is it so hard to couple hy6 and phase one?
it would be very logical of phaseone to make an offer (solution) to F&H about hy6 and
extremely ignorant of F&H not to except it or consider it.
benefit is obvious.
Alexander - F&H are merely licensed manufacturers of the Hy6/Afi - the ownership of the camera platform rests with Jenoptic which owns Sinar. The current problems at F&H are a negative to Sinar and Leaf - because that is the in house camera platform which these backs attach to. Of course a Sinar back can attach itslef to any camera platform via adaptor system and Leaf can attach itself via change in adaptor plates..
It must be galling to sinar and leqaf to have seen their brand new and lovely MF camera and Rollie lens production lines - fail because of issues particular to F&H. This is costing market share and credibility. For Leaf it may have cost even more..we dont know (yet)
All I can say is that it woudl be a shame to lose the Hy6 platform because even though a lot of stuff doesnt exist ( yet) a lot of stuff does exist and works beautifully. In particular the Rollie mount lenses from Scheider and Zeiss.
The F&H situation may imporove and then F&H can get back to making teh Hy6 and Rollie lenses and accessories. OR F&H may be a basket case - we dont know.
However - we do know that IF jenoptic wishes to continue investing in MFD camera system - they coudl always find another manufacturer if B&H was not viable.
Finding another manufacturer is easier said than donre though. It will all take a long time to sort out if Jenoptic was forced to find an alternative manufacturer. Maybe too much time..no one knows and teh current economic envirionment isnt helping.