I'm going MFB with a Tech View for Landscape

[kuau]

I just got back from Guy's wonderful workshop in Northern AZ and have decided to take the plunge and dump my FF 35mm A900 setup in favor of a tech view camera for attempting to master landscape work. I live in Flagstaff AZ so I am so close to so many great spots I figured if I am going to shoot I might as well do it the "right" way and go MF. I do my own printing on my HP Z3200 PS 24 inch printer so my largest prints will be up to 20x30.
Of course I don't have a "ton" of money to spend so after talking with Doug from Capture Integration who was a huge help on the workshop we determined that all i need is a used/refurb P25 back. So that part I feel comfortable with what I am trying to figure out is what body to get. Right now I am either thinking of going Cambo Compact with a 24mm and 35mm lens or go for the horseman with a 35mm lens and shift the back to give me close to a 24 mm coverage I think. The Cambo RS is wonderful but out of my price range. So I can't decide which way to go, 1 lens with a system that has a moving back or go compact with 2 lenses. What I like about the Cambo is it sounds like when they release the tilt for the front it will work with the compact also. That is really nice feature to be able to get.
Any thoughts???

Thanks
Steven

 

[carstenw]

Is the WDS also out of your price range? Which Horseman are you considering?

 

[thomas]

I guess it's this Horseman? http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/digital/SWD2pro.html

Sounds like you want to use movements primarly to expand the image circle to get wider field of view... That is one of the options tech cameras offer but you can't (and won't) do it all the time. The main purpose is shift to compensate the perspective and/or tilt/swing.
The compacts (Cambo Compact, Alpa TC) are nice tools but you can't compare them to a camera with movements.
If you don't want to use movements for other purposes than a wider field of view I'd say take a Compact with a wider lens. Period.

I didn't like the SW-D II Pro very much. The shift is not geared and when you unlock the back to shift it it's loose and may slip down easily. You definitely need both your hands to shift the back (hold the back with one hand, unlock the holders, shift the back, lock the holders).
As to the Phase deal with the SW-D II Pro be aware that it comes with a Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital 35... and thus not the HR version. The lens performs quite good with the P25 you are thinking about. On the P45 with its smaller pixel pitch it's somewhat lost (my Contax 35mm is significantly sharper). So if you think about a future upgrade DB-wise you should take a HR copy or a Digitar 35XL.
The Cambo WDS Carsten mentioned is probably the best choice currently regarding price and options.

 

[Bob]

I am very happy with the WRS-1000 and 35mm Digitar XL in conjunction with a P45+.
-bob

 

[Paratom]

I think that I woud like to have shift capabilities in a techn. camera.
If you consider the price for the P25 and the lenses the additional money for a WRS1000 should be that much more money (difference maybe 1000$??) compared to the whole investment.
I would therefore get the right body in the first step with only one lens and add the second lens later if the budget is tight.
Personally I am planning more into the Artec direction, since I believe the sliding adapter with ground glass plus shift capabilities are nice things to have.
My second choice would be probably the WRS1000 (however the ALpa SWA looks also very nice).

Isnt a second lens more expensive than the difference in price between the WRS1000 and the Compact?

 

[thomas]

Personally I am planning more into the Artec direction, since I believe the sliding adapter with ground glass plus shift capabilities are nice things to have.

I'd probably go for the ArTec as well if I would buy a camera now. Took the WRS last year; when I was in the market Sinar didn't offer Contax mount and didn't plan to do so (meanwhile it's there... damn). Beside the nicely designed sliding back and the excellent built quality it's all the small details as well that make the difference. The groundglass is really bright, the loupe is really usable, there are magnetic masks to fit on the groundglass... you just can work with it! The groundglass of the WRS is dark, the flexible focussing hood is flimsy, the loupe is crap... all that stuff works in a way but it's a challenge of its own.
Upside of the WRS is the light weight and the small size ... really very strong benefits for me personally. Too, the four directions shift on the back are easier to handle and more accurate if you do a lot of stitching (I do).

 

[PeterA]

For flat wide angle shots I would recommend an Alpa 12 with shift capability - the arTec's ground glass darkens up when using combination shift and tilt with wide angle lenses ( image circle size matters here)

No wide angle gives you decent tilt capability anyway as image circles are too small. For anything longer than 35 focal length - the arTec is a pleasure to use. I am ordering an artec with a 90mm to start and then waiting for the new 40mmVHR lens to become available - same image circle as 90 and large enough to need no more.

the arca Swiss R3D is vapourware and certainly no artec in terms of use-ability. Once you have used the ground glass with inbuilt hood and magnifier and the built in sliding back..other solutions are clumsy at best and precarious at worst.

of course it ll comes at a price and unfortunately (currently) is limited to Sinar/Leaf hy6/Afi mounts and V mount backs.

I am waiting for someone to tell me how current lens technology - is capable of resolving P65+ resolution :bugeyes:...not in the center of the lens btw on the edges . I think we are approaching the limits of lens technology now and in some ways lower resolution backs may give better technical camera results - this is talking the best of the Rodenstock / Schneider glass currently available....

I would be interested to hear Doug's thoughts on this conundrum.

 

[Paratom]

..... I am ordering an artec with a 90mm to start and then waiting for the new 40mmVHR lens to become available - same image circle as 90 and large enough to need no more.

the arca Swiss R3D is vapourware and certainly no artec in terms of use-ability. Once you have used the ground glass with inbuilt hood and magnifier and the built in sliding back..other solutions are clumsy at best and precarious at worst.

of course it ll comes at a price and unfortunately (currently) is limited to Sinar/Leaf hy6/Afi mounts and V mount backs....

If you look at the current special offers from Sinar (example set Artec+lens+75LV-back ) and if you think that you get a sliding back, tilt mechanism, groundglass and loupe included I dont find the price/value higher than that from other tech-cameras.

 

[kuau]

I guess it's this Horseman? http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/digital/SWD2pro.html

Sounds like you want to use movements primarly to expand the image circle to get wider field of view... That is one of the options tech cameras offer but you can't (and won't) do it all the time. The main purpose is shift to compensate the perspective and/or tilt/swing.
The compacts (Cambo Compact, Alpa TC) are nice tools but you can't compare them to a camera with movements.
If you don't want to use movements for other purposes than a wider field of view I'd say take a Compact with a wider lens. Period.

I didn't like the SW-D II Pro very much. The shift is not geared and when you unlock the back to shift it it's loose and may slip down easily. You definitely need both your hands to shift the back (hold the back with one hand, unlock the holders, shift the back, lock the holders).
As to the Phase deal with the SW-D II Pro be aware that it comes with a Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital 35... and thus not the HR version. The lens performs quite good with the P25 you are thinking about. On the P45 with its smaller pixel pitch it's somewhat lost (my Contax 35mm is significantly sharper). So if you think about a future upgrade DB-wise you should take a HR copy or a Digitar 35XL.
The Cambo WDS Carsten mentioned is probably the best choice currently regarding price and options.

Thanks for the info Thomas.
Yes you are correct, I would only be using the movement for wider field of view for landscape work. So it looks like my options are Cambo compact with a 24 and 35mm or look at a usead WDS Cambo considering the cost factor

Steven

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Steve I would maybe start with the Cambo compact than at a later time you still have the cambo mount on the lenses and if you wanted to move up to a shift camera than the RS 1000 would be a easy grade up the scale with your mount plate and your lenses. What you want to do is always think ahead on your next move up and not pin yourself into a corner and have to switch gears in mid stream. Right now i would think a body and two lenses to work with like a 35mm lens and maybe something wider or longer. Remember a 35mm lens on a P25 is like a 26mm I believe FF in 35mm cameras. The WDS is also a cheap option for shifting. I think to get started it maybe a good idea to keep the body cost down and put the money in glass and back.

I simply would not think Sinar or Arca solutions to start with are good options. There expensive and it limits your purchasing power.

 

[Paratom]

The nice thing about Cambo (and Alpa ) are that they offer a compact body and a Shift body both using the same lenses.
On the other side the Artec offers additionally tilt + sliding adapter etc.
So I think one really needs to find out what one needs/wants.

Probably also a question if you plan to use your back also with a MF-SLR later on and which adapters are available for the back and the tech-camera.

Whats peoples opinion here for a first lens for a tech camera for landscape stuff? 28mm vs 35mm (on a P25-size sensor)?

 

[Jack]

I'm with Tom Streng -- by the time you assemble the compact kit, the WRS body is maybe another $1000 or so tops and seems a no-brainer for the added versatility. My vote is to start with the WRS and the lens of choice -- for me that would be either the 35 or 47 since they offer generous shift circles.

My .02 only,

 

[kuau]

Thanks Guy, Tom and Jack,
Jack I see your point on the WRS over the compact now I am all confused. Still not sure on what lens to get first. 35mm or 28mm

Steven

 

[Don Libby]

Hi Steven

My recommendation is the WRS-1000. Okay got that off my chest.

Now for the suggestion. Call Capture Integration and see what type of deal they can put together for a used WDS. The WDS is close to being as good as the WRS and will allow you to build off it as all your lens will work on either the Compact, WDS and WRS. I would also recommend not going with the Compact to begin with as it will not allow any movements.

I'd also recommend one lens to begin with. The 35mm will work very well for you with either the WDS or WRS as you'll be able to go much wider just by using movements. The 35 was my first lens and it has served me well shooting the Grand Canyon and Redwoods.

Welcome to the wonderful world of technical cameras!

Don

 

[kuau]

Opps just saw the price of a 28mm lens 6700.00 yikes.
Jims horseman for 3800.00 may not be a bad deal for me.
If I go cambo either the compact or WRS I am looking at over 6500-7500

Steven

 

[Jack]

Easy -- the 28 (or 24 for that matter) has virtually no added IC to do shifts with, while the 35 does. (Note that the 23m mHR does allow for a few mm of shift with full frame backs.)

From a use standpoint, the Horseman D shift and Cambo WRS are not that different. The Cambo's movements are geared and not lockable with indents every 5mm, while the Horseman's movements are lockable friction with indents at 5 or 10mm increments -- I can't remember exactly.

Advantage to the Cambo right now is the future option of being able to add the TS adapter. Advantage of the Horseman is the total price including a lens

 

[Don Libby]

Steven

I too had thought about a Horseman when I first started looking however the advantages of the Cambo were just so overwhelming in their favor despite the price difference. The major factor for me was the movements.

I know it sounds strange but don't think with your wallet for awhile - look at the long term effect of the systems and growth. Then start checking with dealers (calling CI first) and having them put together a proposal for you.

You also don't want such a wide lens as a 28 if that's the only one you'll have for awhile. Start with a 35 or for that matter a 47 and you'll have the best of both worlds.

Just my 2¢

Don

 

[jlm]

i doubt you will come near the jlm horseman, with 35mm lens, price by a long shot. and it is primo and still for sale

 

[kuau]

Thanks for your input Don.
Question what about the leaf aptus 22 compared to the P25 any opinions?

Steven

 

[etrump]

Steven,

Ditto on Don's comments. I am not familiar enough with the horseman to make a comparison but with an investment like this you definitely want to think long term. Once you start down a path, it is extremely difficult and costly if you make the wrong decision.

One other point, I find the 35XL is in the sweet spot for landscape work, especially with the cambo's shift capabilities. The wider lens is going to add substantial distortion; while it may be correctable it doesn't stitch as wonderfully as the 35mm. With the 35mm you can stitch frames created with back shift alone which gives incredible quality. The 47 may even be better but I have been happy enough with my 35 that I have the 47mm way down the priority list.