Graham Mitchell
New member
Guy: lucky!
The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
Phase to buy Leaf from Kodak.....
- Thread starter LJL
- Start date
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Yes could have been much worse. Luckily just water based paint.
Graham Mitchell
New member
Just playing devil's advocate here - Phase bought Leaf assets but not Leaf itself. I assume that the original company Leaf is being closed? Given that Leaf owners have their warranty provided by Leaf does this mean that Leaf warranties are now worthless? Will there even be service available on original Leaf products?
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I guess we will have to see how this all works out for the Leaf owners. I would assume there warranties would be included in any kind of sale like this and the same for repairs. It's interesting news good for the companies and owners involved but I do agree the field of MF is getting smaller with players and with Sinar sort of in the air with the Hy6 body as users this could also be dangerous as our options get smaller. I think the bottom line on this good for the Leaf users they have a new home and have a place to turn. Phase gains some market share and some additional expertise in the MF world but in the end the choices do get smaller at least as far as systems wide . Now we have 3 Sinar, Hassy and Phase.
We do have Leica entering the field but not so sure I call it MF to a certain degree. I think the difference or what makes it MF is the removable back at least by some definition that most of us perceive.
We do have Leica entering the field but not so sure I call it MF to a certain degree. I think the difference or what makes it MF is the removable back at least by some definition that most of us perceive.
D
ddk
Guest
That's how I see it too Graham, wouldn't be surprised if they sold the Leaf name to a third party. I'm not so worried about warranties and repairs in the short term but probably someone else will pick up the slack long term.
On a personal note, this has put a damper on my plans for a new Aptus that I was getting, not sure if I'm going to go through with it now, of course that's assuming that there still is some kind of production line.
In fairness, I think we should think of the Leica S2 as a MF entry. That is exactly what the original Mamiya ZD was considered when it was first released as a body without removable back, no? The S2 sensor size is not that much smaller that some of the earlier MFDBs, or even some of those being sold today, WRT sensor size, and not just number of pixels. Just my thoughts on this. It does remain to prove itself, but if one goes back to the recent survey posted in another thread, the S2 will likely meet all the criteria listed except the one about back. It will surely hold its own in lenses, image quality, system options and other stuff, as far as we have been led to believe from the marketing stuff, demos and interviews announcing its pending release. This will all remain to be proven in a few months to a year, but although it is more like a 35mm DSLR in design and such, it is still quite different in other respects, including sensor size, image circle and other MF "criteria".
LJ
Don Libby
Well-known member
So what did you end up with, desert camouflage?
Don Libby
Well-known member
Here's yet another thought - Phase brought Leaf assets as Graham points out so now they have a completely new/different line. Do they sell just the name and keep the assets renaming them under the Phase banner?
Just wild speculation...
D
ddk
Guest
Just speculating, imo, with this move Phase removed a competitor from the market. We have no idea what Leaf's assets were but we do know that they already closed their doors some time ago. So what is there that Phase couldn't live without? Surely not Capture software, tooling? maybe, but I don't see them coming out with a redesigned case anytime soon. There's really nothing obvious to me there. Leaf's dealer network isn't an issue, they already know one another's distribution network. The only thing that I can come up with besides removing the competition is that Leaf was actually profitable and this was just a sound business investment, hah!
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Hard to say Phase removed them though. I mean they(Kodak) have been looking for a buyer for awhile now. i see it more as saved the users than removed a competitor , they did that on there own. Depends on how you look at it I guess but Hassy could have bought them too or even Canon or Nikon that have a bunch of money. I see good and bad in this. We are down to four no matter how we got there and that is a worry point.
Assets sometimes include IP and/or the actual people that developed that IP. So by purchasing Leaf, they just maybe removed a competitor by name and acquired some key technology in a single stroke. Factor in there are likely some assets worth selling off, and maybe they got that first part netted out for really cheap.
Just a thought...
Georg Baumann
Subscriber Member
I remember when I was on Photokina 08, Sinar announced a cooperation with Leaf. Btw. It is still a head line on SINAR's main website. <shrugs> Nothing was sealed then, and Lorenz Koch was planing to go to Israel soon to put that baby to sleep, but I have not heard anything afterwards, and Lorenz is not working anymore for Sinar.
I wonder what the future for Sinar will be like, I am hearing all kind of rumors concerning Jenaoptik plans since a few weeks.
I intend to think, at the end of the day, I'd hate to see companies like LEAF disappear, in my view, less competition certainly is no good news for endusers.
The demand in this high end sector was driven to a degree by the ridiculous budgets available to marketing and advertisement agencies, hence paying outrageous sums to a small elite of star photographers and very serious money to a trail of second line photographers. Or am I wrong in that assumption?
Now I would guess, from talking to friends long established in that business, and some openly admitting their books to be at least half empty, some of them even down to zero, the market deals with a large amount of shrinking which of course effects the weakest the most.
Taking economical depression into account, the order of business should be consolidation, and re thinking of existing business models that were valid in the past, but are now pulverised to dust in face of the new reality.
One way of looking at it is to look for new segments in the given market, and expand into their turf, but this can not happen on a pricing level we still face in the MFDB world. I think, and I stand to be corrected, the pricing of gear will have to come down further, and there is plenty of scope to do that.
Interesting times for sure!
Fascinating how a few months time can shake up that much.
I wonder what the future for Sinar will be like, I am hearing all kind of rumors concerning Jenaoptik plans since a few weeks.
I intend to think, at the end of the day, I'd hate to see companies like LEAF disappear, in my view, less competition certainly is no good news for endusers.
The demand in this high end sector was driven to a degree by the ridiculous budgets available to marketing and advertisement agencies, hence paying outrageous sums to a small elite of star photographers and very serious money to a trail of second line photographers. Or am I wrong in that assumption?
Now I would guess, from talking to friends long established in that business, and some openly admitting their books to be at least half empty, some of them even down to zero, the market deals with a large amount of shrinking which of course effects the weakest the most.
Taking economical depression into account, the order of business should be consolidation, and re thinking of existing business models that were valid in the past, but are now pulverised to dust in face of the new reality.
One way of looking at it is to look for new segments in the given market, and expand into their turf, but this can not happen on a pricing level we still face in the MFDB world. I think, and I stand to be corrected, the pricing of gear will have to come down further, and there is plenty of scope to do that.
Interesting times for sure!
ptomsu
Workshop Member
What we see today in the MFDB business is clearly the result of recession. As budgets are significantly down, there is much less demand for new equipment. And as we see today already some saturation in the target segment of MFDBs, this is even worse. But I am also convinced that the advertisement market will revamp again pretty soon, if there are no further economic bubbles left for near future.
I also believe that price levels have to come down further. A MF camera with MFDB and standard lens has to be available under 10k€ in order to get really into some sort of low mass market for MFDBs. Will this happen now faster with less competition? Hard to say, as this also means that price levels can be kept high. On the other hand all remaining MF vendors need to increase their sales numbers in order to survive, so they also need to come to the lower price MF segment.
I think we will see entry level offers for under 10k especially with lower resolution and "older" MFDB designs, but on the other side the high end top level will stay in the same price region as today's 60MP backs.
But forget about more competition in this area. And in fact I think that even Leica has already missed the train
I also believe that price levels have to come down further. A MF camera with MFDB and standard lens has to be available under 10k€ in order to get really into some sort of low mass market for MFDBs. Will this happen now faster with less competition? Hard to say, as this also means that price levels can be kept high. On the other hand all remaining MF vendors need to increase their sales numbers in order to survive, so they also need to come to the lower price MF segment.
I think we will see entry level offers for under 10k especially with lower resolution and "older" MFDB designs, but on the other side the high end top level will stay in the same price region as today's 60MP backs.
But forget about more competition in this area. And in fact I think that even Leica has already missed the train
Frank Doorhof
New member
@Peter,
There are already a lot of sub 10K MF solutions.
Think about the mamiya solutions and although I really don't like the ZD back the new Phase one backs on the Mamiya are a nice start for the people starting below 10K.
And also hasselblad, in the netherlands you can buy a H3DII31 with lens for I believe 9950.00 euro.
There are already a lot of sub 10K MF solutions.
Think about the mamiya solutions and although I really don't like the ZD back the new Phase one backs on the Mamiya are a nice start for the people starting below 10K.
And also hasselblad, in the netherlands you can buy a H3DII31 with lens for I believe 9950.00 euro.
Georg Baumann
Subscriber Member
Yup, got a call as well, below 10K for the Kit with 39MP, body and 80mm. Pretty amazing isn't it?
ptomsu
Workshop Member
To my knowledge the H3D2 with 31MP without lens is available for €9990.- excl. VAT in Europe. Still some way to go till a complete camera with back and lens is there for less than 10k incl. VAT - final customer price.
But I agree we are getting there - maybe it could be a bit faster
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Georg,
are you talking about the Hasselblad with 39MP back? Less than 10k including a lens would be a great price :angel:
Frank Doorhof
New member
You can get Phase one backs like the 18/20 with camera and lens below 10K at the moment.
Georg Baumann
Subscriber Member
Peter, I looked it up again, as I am not really interested in buying a Hassy I messed it up a bit, it was 31 MP not 39. Sorry about that!