Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
It still locks out the Mamiya glass in which they own a major share of that company. Not a bad idea but they need to get Rollie in this as well in there camp. If they had all of that than it maybe a great idea
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It still locks out the Mamiya glass in which they own a major share of that company. Not a bad idea but they need to get Rollie in this as well in there camp. If they had all of that than it maybe a great idea
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Bottom line i know as a Sinar owner you certainly have big concerns right now, i think everyone understands and thinks about the Sinar owners in all of this. Don't think anyone is saying this is good at all, it limits us end users and that could hurt us in the end with a very small amount of players.
Anyway on a brighter note Happy 4th everyone.
Anyway on a brighter note Happy 4th everyone.
We've discussed this all before --- the entire MF camera market taken even world-wide is a very, very small market... Any company wanting to compete in it has to be able to offer a product that is relatively easy to manufacture in small quantities while offering a significant profit margin. If the product I produce is better, but costs me 2x as much to build, I need to sell it at 2x the price of the competition. If those small quantities represent say only half of what your two other competitors move, then they are really small, and any good business mind would have to question the merits of sustaining production...
It matters not if the item in question is perceived as "twice as good" as a competitor's, you still need to sell enough of them at a price that makes them a sustainable product -- and I suspect this is where the Hy6 business model fell apart. If you look at history, you can find numerous examples of *proven* superior products not remaining viable in competition with obviously lesser goods, usually due to price-point, availability and/or service. Factor in for the the Hy6 its only real basic advantage (6x6 with rotating back) coupled with its relatively shallow system depth and it only gets worse for them...
I understand that Phase did an informal survey of users a while back -- asking specifically how many of their shooters wanted WLF finders with horizontal and vertical capabilities. Apparently the answer was that virtually nobody under 30 cared about having it at all, and only older shooters weaned on the Hassy V and Mamiya RZ considered it any kind of benefit. (To be clear, I fall in the latter camp!) Moreover, most surveyed agreed that a vertical grip option would adequately suffice for most cases -- again I am not one of them -- but nonetheless it is how the current, dominant market seems to be speaking...
It matters not if the item in question is perceived as "twice as good" as a competitor's, you still need to sell enough of them at a price that makes them a sustainable product -- and I suspect this is where the Hy6 business model fell apart. If you look at history, you can find numerous examples of *proven* superior products not remaining viable in competition with obviously lesser goods, usually due to price-point, availability and/or service. Factor in for the the Hy6 its only real basic advantage (6x6 with rotating back) coupled with its relatively shallow system depth and it only gets worse for them...
I understand that Phase did an informal survey of users a while back -- asking specifically how many of their shooters wanted WLF finders with horizontal and vertical capabilities. Apparently the answer was that virtually nobody under 30 cared about having it at all, and only older shooters weaned on the Hassy V and Mamiya RZ considered it any kind of benefit. (To be clear, I fall in the latter camp!) Moreover, most surveyed agreed that a vertical grip option would adequately suffice for most cases -- again I am not one of them -- but nonetheless it is how the current, dominant market seems to be speaking...
Who knows how far down the road Phase may be with their product development. Perhaps a new camera more suited to the 645 technology that has become the standard for MFD ... in which case, why sink money into a 6X6 camera ... with no 6X6 sensor even being speculated upon or rumored to be in development for mass manufacture?
Since Phase has a stake in Mamiya, why would they produce a camera that only accepts someone else's lenses? The Back and optics are where the money is.
Heck, all the MFD companies have offered the camera body basically for free to sell backs, lenses and that cash cow ... warranties.
What's happening is no surprise ... sad, but no surprise.
Since Phase has a stake in Mamiya, why would they produce a camera that only accepts someone else's lenses? The Back and optics are where the money is.
Heck, all the MFD companies have offered the camera body basically for free to sell backs, lenses and that cash cow ... warranties.
What's happening is no surprise ... sad, but no surprise.
Graham Mitchell
New member
I hear what you're saying, but I think this is a case of them *not knowing* that they want it. They can't vote for something they have never experienced.
Seriously, every 'under 30' photographer I know who handles my camera and looks though the WLF loupe says "wow", so they can see the benefit with their own eyes once they have had the chance to try it.Graham Mitchell
New member
1) because it is the only way to fit a rotating 645 back, which is a great feature
2) they don't need to sink any money into it at all - just add it to their option of mounts
carstenw
Active member
Yes, the Hy6 with a rotating adapter with the P65+ would be a great platform! Surely Phase recognizes this and is only posturing to push down the price. The lens profit question is a fair one, but I think that Phase also realizes that whether or not they own the lenses, the Schneider lenses for the 6008/Hy6 outclass the Mamiya lenses in many cases, and match them in the rest, i.e. the 80D and 150D and maybe one or two other stars. The one missing link is the wide for the Hy6 to match Mamiya's 28mm, but as Graham points out on LL, the new 35mm is apparently more or less ready for production, so that is a short-term concern, not a lasting one.
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Alexander Bauer
Guest
why not but in my experience SINAR (even Leica too) is somehow overloaded with pride something like a beautiful looking girl with no charm or intelligence so much not to realize their prime time to score instead they are happy to play with pride but when it gets too late and they are old then they become outdated no matter what they offer.
I think in my opinion others have proved to be self destructive while Phase and Hasselblad are moving forward.
one other thing too is I think Phase is clever looking at Hy6 as outdated box and it would be very wise for Phase to work on their own design especially when the big players are moving rapidly in video & stills direction too.
for sure Sinar is not dead but Hy6 unfortunately I think is.
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We are making conjecture without enough facts. Two very different possibilities exist:
1) the Hy6 was not commercially successful - there were insufficient sales, perhaps production costs (all German) too high, and its differences (WLF, great glass), beloved by some, were not significant enough to give it a significant competitive advantage.
This is typically the viewpoint from the American market, and thus one would place its odds of coming back into production as "slim to none".
2) the Hy6 was commercially viable, its advantages are supported by enough of a customer base to be viable, probably European-centric. The lack of American representation is a hindrance, but not critical.
The closure of the company is due to other pressures (old debts), and the commentary from Phase and others is all negotiating to get something for nothing.
Assuming there is enough advantage in the camera and its customer base to overcome the recent bad press, the odds of the camera coming back are "so-so".
From this vantage point, it is unclear which of these scenarios is true. My guess is that the first one is most likely, but the heart wishes for the second.
Its likely that the Hy6, like many great cameras before it, is history, sadly so. Maybe there are some leftovers....
Geoff
1) the Hy6 was not commercially successful - there were insufficient sales, perhaps production costs (all German) too high, and its differences (WLF, great glass), beloved by some, were not significant enough to give it a significant competitive advantage.
This is typically the viewpoint from the American market, and thus one would place its odds of coming back into production as "slim to none".
2) the Hy6 was commercially viable, its advantages are supported by enough of a customer base to be viable, probably European-centric. The lack of American representation is a hindrance, but not critical.
The closure of the company is due to other pressures (old debts), and the commentary from Phase and others is all negotiating to get something for nothing.
Assuming there is enough advantage in the camera and its customer base to overcome the recent bad press, the odds of the camera coming back are "so-so".
From this vantage point, it is unclear which of these scenarios is true. My guess is that the first one is most likely, but the heart wishes for the second.
Its likely that the Hy6, like many great cameras before it, is history, sadly so. Maybe there are some leftovers....
Geoff
Graham Mitchell
New member
I don't know why people are still guessing about the connection between the Hy6 and F&H's troubles. The F&H press release stated ‘When recent financial and other old liabilities turned up, which had not been known to the new shareholder at the time of the take-over, it became evident that a financial reorganisation would not be possible even by investing further millions.’
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=846120
Hans R. Schmid Beteiligungs GmbH acquired the majority shares of Franke & Heidecke in September 2008.
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=846120
Hans R. Schmid Beteiligungs GmbH acquired the majority shares of Franke & Heidecke in September 2008.
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dwdmguy
Guest
Guy, that's very interesting. It's a good point indeed.
On other news, I have a lot of older M645 glass that I use and I can't believe a) How excellent their lenses are (were) and b) how cheap they are now on the market. However, I am seeing quite a creep up in prices that I feel is do to a revisiting of film.
On other news, I have a lot of older M645 glass that I use and I can't believe a) How excellent their lenses are (were) and b) how cheap they are now on the market. However, I am seeing quite a creep up in prices that I feel is do to a revisiting of film.
carstenw
Active member
I still think it is too early to say completely. It looks bad, that's for sure, but until Sinar has made their announcement and Jenoptik has made theirs, the Hy6 is up in the air, and until Leaf has made an announcement that the AFi is no more, that is up in the air too. I don't give much for the chances of the AFi if Phase doesn't buy it, but I don't take Håkonsson's statement as final yet, just a bit of posturing while they figure out how much they might pay for it, and so on. For the platform to survive, they do need to pick out a manufacturer though, which is another thorny issue. In fact, I would consider the current situation re. the AFi/Hy6 to be similar to the Leaf situation before the Phase announcement: it looks bad, but it ain't over until it's over.
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dwdmguy
Guest
I think this is where I'm a bit confused. Does not Phase own this now? If they don't why did they not buy it?
I do agree completely with you, even tho' I don't like it, it is not good and I'm quite sure that his statement was indeed final. He doesn't have to say anything more.
What happens to the poor souls that just purchased this system? I'm sure they have to support it for 10 years but what about updates etc?
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carstenw
Active member
Phase bought pieces, but not everything, which is wise. The question is if they bought the rights to produce and market the AFi. Håkonsson's statement makes it sounds like they did without saying so directly. They may only have the option of buying it...
If Phase doesn't buy and manufacture the AFi, and if Sinar doesn't survive or if no manufacturer is found for the Hy6, then indeed the updates may be done, unless the (unlikely) firmware is open-sourced, as well as alternate arrangements.
If Phase doesn't buy and manufacture the AFi, and if Sinar doesn't survive or if no manufacturer is found for the Hy6, then indeed the updates may be done, unless the (unlikely) firmware is open-sourced, as well as alternate arrangements.
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dwdmguy
Guest
I'd also like to ask a question please?
I find the Leaf technology awesome for many, many reasons, whey did it never get the respect that it deserved?
I find the Leaf technology awesome for many, many reasons, whey did it never get the respect that it deserved?
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dwdmguy
Guest
This makes a lot of sense, and my view is that Leaf was going to bury it anyway. If it was viable Phase would have purchased it just to keep it out of the hands of others even if they did not want it.
Thx
Not sure it was a question of respect... But as respects the Hy6 body IMO,
1) It came to the MF digital market late, so many users perhaps also enamored with the potential of the system were not ready to reinvest to convert.
2) Not everybody thought it was awesome in its current form, needing some revisions in a few areas;
3) I suspect a significant portion of both the above camps were going to wait for the version II to make sure it would remain a viable product worth investing in;
In the end, I suspect they couldn't survive that market "wait" since Ver I probably did not generate the resources to warrant developing and releasing Ver II...
Well, it was slow to develop and made a few innovative and bold, but ill fated steps ... like early wireless transfer to a remote unit that was problematic at best, then had difficulties with center-folding on earlier Aptus units that gave potential users pause. Their earlier U.S. dealer network was ... well ... not Hassey or Phase like ... I never attended a Leaf demo where anyone could make the equipment or software work ... I kid you not. The Software was a bit behind ... even behind Flexcolor which was originally more of a scanner program.
That said, they improved like crazy and that's probably what you are referring to. I had great respect for my later Leaf gear. Unfortunately (or fortunately: -), when I went to upgrade my Aptus 75s to a AFi-7 I was shut out ... and there was zero loyalty discount available to Leaf owners like me. The cost was staggering to get into the AFi which was more expensive than the Sinar Hy6 which came with a better warranty and included the 80/2.8AF lens for less than the AFi.
I'm all Hasselblad now.
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dwdmguy
Guest
I see. that's ashame. I can only hope and do believe that the Phase partnership will be of huge benefit.