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Frankie/Heidecke Closed. Leaf AFi is now dead.

Paratom

Well-known member
If I read the thread I come to the following conclusion:
-Leaf will not continue the AFI right now, they dont say if they might produce it in the future
-we dont know what happens with F&H - it is still possible that they are overtaken by another company, but they could also close the doors forever. If this happens the employees could allways work for another company producing cameras and the production equipment will also still exist.
-we dont know if the Hy6-product has much to do with the insolvency of Sinar, I believe no, others believe yes
-I assume we also dont have any numbers of sold units compared to other brands. From what I heard there are quite some new SInar-users in Germany. I also dont believe that internet forums can indicate a representetive number regarding market share of brands. I also guess it could differ between US and Europe.
-some people believe the Hy6-body needs improvement, others feel it is they most flexible and most advanced system. Nearly everybody believes the optical lenses with Rollei mount are of very fine optical quality
-some believe 6x6 is not needed, others believe that there is a chance for a larger sensor and the larger image circle of the Rollei could become a real benefit in the future.
-now its hard to say how big or small the chances are for the Hy6 to survive, I admit that i now believe the chances are not too good, but still there.
 
A

andershald

Guest
If Phase One has the right to produce the Hy6, but refrains from doing so, does that leave Sinar without a vehicle for their backs?

I know Sinar has the M system and technical systems, but are those an alternative to the Hy6?
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
If Phase One has the right to produce the Hy6, but refrains from doing so, does that leave Sinar without a vehicle for their backs?
"rights to produce" and "ownership of a design" are very different things.

If Phase One has the right to produce the Hy6, it was probably an assignable right bought years ago by Leaf, and now bought by Phase's new company. That does not mean Jenoptik no longer owns the design. Afaik, Jenoptik still owns the design and therefore can still license it or sell it to another party. Sinar is still part of Jenoptik, afaik, so it is unaffected.
 

thomas

New member
Sinar is still part of Jenoptik, afaik, so it is unaffected.
Unaffected?
If the Hy6 will be discontinued it's pretty much certain that Sinar will stop the digital part and will concentrate on cameras. Producing DBs only for the M and tech cameras doesn't make sense at all.
This is what I expect: Sinar will continue to produce cameras but the digital part is history.

Afaik, Jenoptik still owns the design and therefore can still license it or sell it to another party.
To which one? If it is again a bizzare company without a certain power in the market (i.e. a company to trust in) it will be a desaster. And who would make DBs for the Hy6 then? With Leaf together there was a potential chance for the Hy6 system but without Leaf I don't see any chance for the Hy6.
The future of the Hy6/AFi is likely at Phase/Leaf or nowhere. And it is only going to happen if there is a chance to produce and sell the platform at a competitive price.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I think Jenoptic has stopped investing in the digi backs via Sinar a while back....way before F&H officially became insolvent. Remember that the latest Leaf backs were going to be Sinar branded in a JV announced only a few months ago...

The fact that Leaf has been closed down by Kodak means that Jenoptic had no interest in increasing its bets in this market.

I hope that that no interest does not mean that Sinar in its entirety is also closed down...I hope that Sinar doesn't haev a lot of liabilities and debts at the divisional level - this at least would mean that if Jenoptic did decide to opt out - they would be marketable.

I have my fingers crossed for Sinar.
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
Unaffected?
I was referring to Sinar's rights to the Hy6, not the F&H issue!

If the Hy6 will be discontinued it's pretty much certain that Sinar will stop the digital part and will concentrate on cameras. Producing DBs only for the M and tech cameras doesn't make sense at all.
Agreed.

If it is again a bizzare company without a certain power in the market (i.e. a company to trust in) it will be a desaster.
Agreed again. After what is happening now, the Hy6 needs a strong and committed company to say "we are proud to be continuing production of the Hy6, and are committed to marketing and developing this platform until it is the number one MF platform".
 

thomas

New member
After what is happening now, the Hy6 needs a strong and committed company to say "we are proud to be continuing production of the Hy6, and are committed to marketing and developing this platform until it is the number one MF platform".
But actually this can't be Phase. They have to claim this for the Phase/Mamiya platform (either way which camera is "better"). The AFi could - could - be a second option in the line as a niche. But if you think about the current economy there is not much room for an eccentric camera at eccentric prices.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
As an interesting side note to all of this is Hasselblad's recent launch of a 39 meg back for the V series cameras.

Any interest in a Hy6 I may have had is effectively killed by this news. My 203FE system is alive and well with re-newed support well into the digital age.

Like Peter, I do hope Sinar remains a viable player in the market.
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
As an interesting side note to all of this is Hasselblad's recent launch of a 39 meg back for the V series cameras.

Any interest in a Hy6 I may have had is effectively killed by this news. My 203FE system is alive and well with re-newed support well into the digital age.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a problem that the new CFV back doesn't rotate? And isn't the flash sync only 1/125 on the 203FE? Is there metering with the waist level finder? Autofocus? Colour temperature sensor? etc. They are such different products. I don't see the Hasselblad V focal plane system as competing with the Hy6 at all. The Hy6 is clearly more similar to the Hasselblad H.

Phase clearly has a stake in the Mamiya 645 platform, but that is a pretty limited platform. Seems to be no issue for landscape shooters, but I bet the Hasselblad has a much higher share of the fashion crowd. Phase needs a platform to compete with the Hasselblad. Just my $0.02.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Regardless of where Sinar sits these days, I think a lot of would be buyers are switching to other options. With everything going on around them, it certainly makes a would be buyer nervous. Now we also should keep in mind location differences. The European crowd may not be so nervous but here in the states most likely less looking in the Sinar/Leaf direction with Hassy and Phase very popular here. Besides times being tough with competition among themselves along with a down economy just too many doors closing and on a user level too many jobs not being produced anymore. No question my business is down and every shooter out there is feeling the pinch. Seriously and no kidding around we are all looking for a answer when it comes to making a living and staying above the curve. A lot of our buying habits have slipped very low on our priority list.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a problem that the new CFV back doesn't rotate? And isn't the flash sync only 1/125 on the 203FE? Is there metering with the waist level finder? Autofocus? Colour temperature sensor? etc. They are such different products. I don't see the Hasselblad V focal plane system as competing with the Hy6 at all. The Hy6 is clearly more similar to the Hasselblad H.

Phase clearly has a stake in the Mamiya 645 platform, but that is a pretty limited platform. Seems to be no issue for landscape shooters, but I bet the Hasselblad has a much higher share of the fashion crowd. Phase needs a platform to compete with the Hasselblad. Just my $0.02.

Phase needs a new body and i think Graham every Phase owner would say the same thing. Now be it a leaf shutter or not in that body I am not so sure it matters to the greatest degree, it certainly needs to get to 1/250 no question and let's face it we all came from 35mm without leaf shutters and got by but the Phase body certainly needs 1/250 if not some leaf lenses as well. The S2 will have that option and just by the specs directly geared to fashion shooters.
 

thomas

New member
Phase clearly has a stake in the Mamiya 645 platform, but that is a pretty limited platform. Seems to be no issue for landscape shooters, but I bet the Hasselblad has a much higher share of the fashion crowd. Phase needs a platform to compete with the Hasselblad. Just my $0.02.
What is easier to handle for Phase - to establish a second platform (and therefore jeopardize the Phamiya to some extend) or to provide leaf shutter lenses for the Phamiya?
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
What is easier to handle for Phase - to establish a second platform (and therefore jeopardize the Phamiya to some extend) or to provide leaf shutter lenses for the Phamiya?
What is wrong with giving their customers the choice? Should Canon offer just one DSLR? How many companies can you think of which don't offer any choice at all? Far from jeopardizing things for Phase, it would help them to cover the whole market.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
My guess and this is a guess with no inside info. but I think Mamiya was in a little financial trouble in the past and reason some things did not come out or promised to come out but with the recent investment from Phase I think this will change and we will be seeing a lot of product hit the streets before years end. I'm hoping at least but this is my gut feeling and I am guessing we will see a new body shortly and those promised leaf lenses. Okay fingers crossed and hope I am guessing correctly but I agree they need to up the game some. If it is going to get down to Hassy/Phase and the Leica S2 than let's admit it the Phase body has the short end of the stick.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a problem that the new CFV back doesn't rotate? And isn't the flash sync only 1/125 on the 203FE? Is there metering with the waist level finder? Autofocus? Colour temperature sensor? etc. They are such different products. I don't see the Hasselblad V focal plane system as competing with the Hy6 at all. The Hy6 is clearly more similar to the Hasselblad H.

Phase clearly has a stake in the Mamiya 645 platform, but that is a pretty limited platform. Seems to be no issue for landscape shooters, but I bet the Hasselblad has a much higher share of the fashion crowd. Phase needs a platform to compete with the Hasselblad. Just my $0.02.
Actually, the sync speed is 1/90th with the 200 series cameras, which is okay in the studio, but not so good for fill outdoors ... however, with the 500 series lenses mounted on the 200 series cameras all shutter speeds are available up to 1/500th are available ... basically the camera can be a two shutter system depending on which lenses you use. It's not an either or situation with the 200 cameras.

NO, the new CVF/39 doesn't rotate ... the full 39 meg 1.1X use of the sensor is limited to landscape orientation ... especially when using the waist level finder ... same as the Leaf AFi which doesn't offer a rotating back either.

Since the meter is in the camera body on the 200 cameras, there are finders that will allow shooting the camera on it's side, I know, I have one : -)


However, I can also use this same back on my RZ Pro-II which does have a rotating back.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
My guess and this is a guess with no inside info. but I think Mamiya was in a little financial trouble in the past and reason some things did not come out or promised to come out but with the recent investment from Phase I think this will change and we will be seeing a lot of product hit the streets before years end. I'm hoping at least but this is my gut feeling and I am guessing we will see a new body shortly and those promised leaf lenses. Okay fingers crossed and hope I am guessing correctly but I agree they need to up the game some. If it is going to get down to Hassy/Phase and the Leica S2 than let's admit it the Phase body has the short end of the stick.
I have no doubt what-so-ever that Phase/Mamiya will address that in spades.

The H is long in the tooth also ... so maybe some developments there also ... abeit slower since the need isn't as pressing.
 

Georg Baumann

Subscriber Member
They all should get up their butts in finally make bodies and lenses all water and dust proof, so I can go out here in Ireland in any condition. :)

Raining buckets here....
 

thomas

New member
What is wrong with giving their customers the choice? Should Canon offer just one DSLR?
Ah, okay, a Physe6 taking Mamiya glass would be a different thing, I agree.

There is nothing wrong at all with choices ... as long as it is profitable for the company. I think none is really interessted in another company (Phase) going down the drain...

If they can produce and sell the camera for a competitive price and if the whole thing fits into their overall plans maybe they are going to do it.
So back to my initial point: when the leaf shutter lenses for the Phamiya are there you have your competition for Hasselbald H. Phase doesn't need the AFi to compete here (though a revolving P65+ on an AFi is certainly sexy - but the H3D2-50/60 will likely have no revolving back either). Maybe Phase wants the AFi, I don't know, but they certainly don't need it.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Folks, I am both a pragmatist and a student of history... I'll point out we went through a similar debate when Contax folded -- every Contax shooter wanted some savior to come in and keep the line alive. Heck, even ex-Contax shooters like me wanted to see a savior. There was even talk about users forming a company to continue production. But we all know how that ended. And unfortunately, the story is more than likely going to have the same ending for the Hy6 regardless of how many of us want it to be different.
 
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