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The Shake Up: SINAR

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I will not be surprised if there will be two MFDB players by the end of this year - Hasselblad and PhaseOne, similar to 35mm CaNikon's two-main-players market.
I think the marketshare distribution breakdowns of the MF and Pro 35mm markets already match. Two players dominate the market (each with specific niches where they dominate) with a third player also in the mix (Sony / Sinar).

Of course this does vary by geographic and stylistic niche.

For what it's worth digital backs are my job and much of my recreation and I've only seen one Sinar back outside of the tradeshows.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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A

Alexander Bauer

Guest
and I thought SINAR is not in trouble :confused:

I knew they didn't make a lot of sense by refusing to make me a deal but I thought they were too proud and could never anticipated SINAR is in trouble.

now I have to look at Phase or Hasselblad and from what I see on this forum Phase looks good.

2nd options would be as one of my assistants suggested D3x is the most reliable MF system that you can get today, of course he was joking but that's just on my mind now.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
....On a different note, ....However, I really can't understand Phase One's move. In a time like this, when sales in general must be dropping (although the P65+ seems to sell well), it is surely not a time to splurge, and the partial Leaf acquisition has me stumped.

..... Let's face it: Phase doesn't really stand in the shadow of anyone when it comes to digital backs; rather, it is the camera-side which is behind Hasselblad et al.
Just speculation, but Phase One seems to be healthy---and when you have cash/assets in a difficult economy, sometimes it pays off to take a "contrarian" stance (and invest) rather than retract and hide in the shadows. To me, I see Phase One not looking at the present. They are looking beyond to the future. (And I'm hoping they listen to Guy and release a super-duper camera body...)
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Completely agree David , I am more worried about the current owners more than anything. We all buy hoping service and support will be around plus parts and system advancements. Not sure what Sinar owner should do here , give up and unload it or buy spares and hang on for dear life. Bad situation no matter what happens just does not give the current owners a lot of confidence and that I feel really bad for them which obviously includes you. Just too much money at risk here.
For my part I see no sense in unloading my Sinar stuff. First of all there will be service by Sinar hired people in Germany at least until beginning of next year, and I expect until then there will be a concept how the service and support in Germany will be continued - I am pretty sure there will be local service in the future.
Even if I wanted to unload my Sinar back and Artec, there would be no other tech camera with the same functions be available (besides maybe Arca Swiss) and there would be no back for nearly the same price which would offer me the same resolution combined with good higher ISO, without micro lenses and in that size.
I believe that the situation at Leaf (who should supply the next generation backs for Sinar) has hit Sinar even arder than the Hy6-situation.
First the news made me nervous but overall I also prefer if Sinar shrinks a little. The fact that the GmbH Sinar Germany is liquidated doesnt mean that there will be no service in Germany any more. I believe other back manufacturers never even had a own local company in Germany.(maybe I am wrong-I am not sure)
Of course I am not happy how things develop, but on the other side it could be much worse.
 

Nick-T

New member
In my opinion Sinar will be out of the digital back business in the next few months and will revert to being a high end camera manufacturer.
Nick-T
 

fotografz

Well-known member
and I thought SINAR is not in trouble :confused:

I knew they didn't make a lot of sense by refusing to make me a deal but I thought they were too proud and could never anticipated SINAR is in trouble.

now I have to look at Phase or Hasselblad and from what I see on this forum Phase looks good.

2nd options would be as one of my assistants suggested D3x is the most reliable MF system that you can get today, of course he was joking but that's just on my mind now.
I have a D3X ... and a Sony A900 ... as well as a H3D-II MFD system ... I can assure you he was joking. :)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well, honestly, I am not too astonished about it anymore.

If true, then Sinar has fired all staff in Germany. Client requests will be served from headquarters in Switzerland according to a usually very reliable source of mine.

If anyone is wondering about Jenoptik in particular, it might be useful to compare the trend, and looking at the attached speaks volumes from where I am standing.

Red=NASDAQ
Blue= Jena
Absolutely sickening developments.

As a Hasselblad owner/user the LAST thing I want to see is lack of ANY competition from innovative companies like Sinar and Leaf.

On a different note (silver lining in a thunder cloud) ... this could be good news for Leica.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
This MFD world is melting under the weight of its own irrationalities. There simply arent enough people left standing to keep the market size going as it was.Leaf goes and maybe Sinar too - but takes a significant number of burned customers down with them..

These customers arent going to say oh well - I will just now switch to Hasselblad or Phase - some might many wont.

So the remaining duo will be left fighting over a smaller per annum unit sales battlefield - which is crowded with an ever increasing used body market for the person who never bought in the first place but might pay up for a nice mint used back....

The annual oo ahh about another 10 megapixels crammed into the same sized chip cos tehcnology always gets better and last years this is just the beez knees ads get pulled from the glossy sites to be replaced by thsi years beez knees - that party is over folks..

So what do I see from my cynical and charred rooftop ?

I see the smartest guys, with big smiles and nice manners, sliding carefully, slowly, chatting away and cracking jokes moving purposefully and privately out of the seating rows...towards the exit doors..hoping that no one notices and that they can maybe get 60 or 50 or 40 cents in the dollar for the gear they already own ..on their way out - before the door slams.

Meanwhile the single most important issue regarding the survival of the market is not being adressed by the players - all those three year warranties blah blah blah..what are they worth if the companies are no longer there?

Best thing everyone can do is in their minds totally write off the dollars they have spent - and realise that if no one is buying new at current prices and value propositions - maybe the companies who wish to play - have to get prices and other incentives down to actually competing against the real competition - CaNikon. if they cant - well they are walking dead too..

the best value propositions will be the Leaf and Sinar backs sold new @ 20-30 cents in the dollar. of course existing players wont want to see this - hence the BS new Leaf company - it aint about a merger it is about protecting fire sales that will crush who is left..the last thing needed is not only a large used market but a new market selling cheaper than 3 year old backs...:D


Just my 2cents worth - thats all I have left of my fun dollars - after these MFD players have finished with me! :ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
There simply arent enough people left standing to keep the market size going as it was.
I just hope they listen before it's too late. How many times have we heard people clamouring for feature X, and the MF makers keep offering more of feature Y? If they produced the right sort of medium format camera at the right price, it could be a runaway success.

I can just imagine the fanfare made by Canikon when they announce to the world a new 'revolutionary' supersized sensor for even better image quality, larger viewfinder, etc. They wouldn't be able to make enough of them to keep up with demand.

The market exists, they just don't know how to grasp it.
 

woodyspedden

New member
Yeah Graham

That is exactly the right analysis. Build the better (i.e. most usable) mousetrap and the world will still beat a path to your door.

Down with the marketing hype. Build us a camera we can really use!

Just my usual whistling past the graveyard dearge. (H3DII-39 and the millions of lens dollars and accessories nightmares LOL)

I am now really anxiously awaiting the S2

Woody
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Well the Hy6 taught us that a new MF camera system isnt an easy thing to do. It came to teh market very late and allowed Phase One to actually survive.

The Leica S2 is an interesting camera at a very uninteresting price.

If the market was big enough to get CaNikon interest - they would already be there.

if teh MFD back makers reduce price to actually threaten CaNikon hihg end - that is when the CaNikon cards will be played ...

In the meantime Canikon is just watching teh MF players die slowly one after the other..it is a cruel torture

The true high end player will end up being RED if/when they bring out their DSLR type body with FFMF and 617 chips. These cameras are slated for price points already posted - which are teh same as MFD camera backs where - just 3 years ago.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I just hope they listen before it's too late. How many times have we heard people clamouring for feature X, and the MF makers keep offering more of feature Y? If they produced the right sort of medium format camera at the right price, it could be a runaway success.

I can just imagine the fanfare made by Canikon when they announce to the world a new 'revolutionary' supersized sensor for even better image quality, larger viewfinder, etc. They wouldn't be able to make enough of them to keep up with demand.

The market exists, they just don't know how to grasp it.
I seriously doubt that it exists, so it doesn't matter if they know how to grasp it or not.

IMO, it's all just going back to where it all started ... a couple of smaller specialized companies making equipment for people who actually need it to make a living ... those that see it as a business write-off rather than as an investment to be sweated over at every speed bump. It appears to me that the recreational MF format digital bubble is simply in the process of bursting because of the economy.

While I think the S2 may be a very nice 'tweener solution, we will see how many people who choked at the $8 price tag of the top Pro 35mm DSLRs will rush to pony up $20K+ not to mention Leica style lens price tags ... PLUS gladly go to the slaughter house with their existing gear and lay it on the alter.

I would love one. But I can't be without a view camera. So for me it is simple ...

love the one you are with ... and go make photographs.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well the Hy6 taught us that a new MF camera system isnt an easy thing to do. It came to teh market very late and allowed Phase One to actually survive.

The Leica S2 is an interesting camera at a very uninteresting price.

If the market was big enough to get CaNikon interest - they would already be there.

if teh MFD back makers reduce price to actually threaten CaNikon hihg end - that is when the CaNikon cards will be played ...

In the meantime Canikon is just watching teh MF players die slowly one after the other..it is a cruel torture

The true high end player will end up being RED if/when they bring out their DSLR type body with FFMF and 617 chips. These cameras are slated for price points already posted - which are teh same as MFD camera backs where - just 3 years ago.
I've been watching "RED" for some time now Peter. It'd be interesting to know how they are doing as a company these days. The commercial film industry isn't exactly booming what with the switch to "alternative media" on the part of advertisers ... which funds a huge amount of the rental business even in Hollywood. Video businesses are going south at about the same rate as photo studios these days.

We live in an odd time for all this stuff.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
.....

The true high end player will end up being RED if/when they bring out their DSLR type body with FFMF and 617 chips. ......
Marc - you get no argument from me on that point - hence the if/when statement and yes it is hard times relatively - I take no joy being a doom and gloom fella- it isnt my nature...but reality bites as they say..

however if they deliver a useable dslr configuration + the megapixel at each frame + the video at that price point - it kinda forces the price down issue for current incumbents even more..as I have said on a few occasions - single shot megapixels > than 40 meg - for me the archetypal hobby shooter - well I have no interest or need...and I dont 'sweat' the lost cashola from my playing in MFD I write it off the day I buy it...
 
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David K

Workshop Member
The following press release is only tangentially related to what's happening at Sinar headquarters but I thought some US based users might find it worthwhile reading. I've also learned from one of my friends at SBI that they will be distributing some new products that will likely be of interest to some of our members. Not allowed to say what it is yet, but it should be publicly disclosed within a week or so.

July 7, 2009 – Edison, NJ

On June 30, 2009 Bron Elektronik and Foba AG purchased the shares of Sinar Bron Imaging (SBI) previously owned by Sinar AG. SBI is now wholly owned by Bron Elektronik AG and Foba AG. Prior to June of this year Bron Elektronik AG, Sinar AG, and Foba AG owned the company. SBI will continue to distribute Sinar products in the United States and to work closely with Sinar on marketing and support of the Sinar line.

“The market for professional photographic products has changed dramatically in the past year. The new ownership structure will provide SBI with additional flexibility with which to address and respond to a rapidly changing marketplace.” Said Michael Hejtmanek, President of Sinar Bron Imaging.

As a part of this change, new support and warranty policies will be put in place on Sinar products sold by SBI. Please contact your dealer or see the www.sinarbron.com for more information about service and warranty.

Sinar Bron Imaging will continue to operate under the same trade name until a new name is announced in the next few months.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Thanks David,

The way I read this is that Sinar ( Jenoptic) have sold their interest in the US distributor. If so, we se another example of cost down - much like closing down their dealership in Germany...

One could read this as a positive indicator for Sinar - exiting non-core aspects of their business - which would indicate (at the very least) some attempt is being made to stay in business...
 

David K

Workshop Member
Peter,

You're correct that Sinar has sold it's share (40%) to the remaining shareholders. My understanding is that it's related to the fact that the losses being incurred by SBI were not equally attributable to the shareholders' interests. The good news is that SBI continues in business, albeit without Sinar as a shareholder, and there's still someone to talk to should problems arise. The prospect of having to deal directly with someone in Switzerland at Sinar headquarters is not an attractive one. I had enough difficulties (language and otherwise) getting through to F&H, when they were still repairing Rollei lenses, to last me a lifetime.
 

MMPhoto

Member
Hi friends,

I was reading this string about Sinar in Canada. I live in Montreal, Quebec, I have been doing professional photography here for the last 20 years using Sinar and Broncolor.

For the last 15 years about there has not seen one professional tread show and since Lisle Kelco lost the Sinar brand we have not been serve properly.

Even when I had to replace levels on my P2, I had to deal whit SBI in the States. I think if Sinar wants to make a break true here, they must really make a big effort in promoting there products.

The other problem is that the markets have been dropping for the last 5 years. In the last 6 mounts I know like 6 Photographers that have close there studios, due to the lack of work.

I for one would love to shot with the Sinar backs, accept it would be impossible to amortize it in a reasonable time, even a Nikon d3x is hard to amortize. So I had to shot using Nikon since the clients don't have the money to pay us properly and we are competing agains new comers that ready to work for credits.

I am confident that in a year or two the markets here will have recover and we might be able to have proper representation from Sinar.
 
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