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P30 AND P40+ BACKS SWITCHING C1 PROFILES

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
In the thread fun with MF images the question came up about the difference between Dalsa and Kodak sensors in there look of the file. Something I have noticed there is a difference on how they render between the Phase backs. Now obviously this should be done in a studio but these are all outdoors with a Macbeth Color chart. This goes back to my thread on the P40,P30 and P45 testing. I noticed a difference in the color rendition between the backs . The Kodak sensors look almost identical but the Dalsa has a different look. Now going back several months ago Jack and I noticed this when testing the P65+.

The question came up if we switched the color profiles in C1 what would it look like. So i tried it and there is a difference fooling around with the P40 files and switching profiles.

These first two are standard and no changes made to the profiles they are the P30+ and the P40+ with there own outdoor daylight profiles . I WB off the second grey patch from the left. Okay these are the gold standards from each back. Just for clarification these are all Plus backs
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Now here I played with the P40+ profiles in C1. I will put the gold standard than the switching of profiles to a P30, P45 and P65 watch the changes . They are all marked at the top left to identify and suggest saving them to the desktop and looking at them side by side. This is interesting and clearly a way to alter the look of the files. Now not sure i would call this scientific but it is what it is
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Jerry the Kodak sensor backs are the P30,P45 Plus in this test and the Dalsa is the P40 Plus and also the P65 Plus is Dalsa. Better click the thumbnails the P65 thumbnail is weird but shows correctly
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just to add this one in to compare as well this is a P45+ with it's own outdoor daylight profile
 
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ddk

Guest
I appreciate the time and effort you're putting into this Guy but I can't make sense of all this testing. Yes, I see a difference here but in all honesty I can't even tell which one I prefer, let alone deciding which is the BETTER chip, they're all good! :confused:. I guess in the end, at least for me, it comes down to features and maybe software if one is considering other brands...
 

Dale Allyn

New member
David, I think the point is that they all seem pretty good, but display a difference. One might prefer one or the other type of look (i.e. Kodachrome vs Ektachrome, etc.). If profiles can be tweaked, it removes that element from one's process.

These samples show a type of color tendency that is a bit different than some of the images Eleanor et al showed. Different light, different subject, etc. shows some sensor "habits" which render quite differently. I'd like a slightly warmer profile for the new Dalsa backs I think. Though I'm sure that one familiar with the color tools of C-1 it can be achieved easily enough. I shoot mostly landscape and have always preferred the look of Kodachrome to that of Ektachrome. Others, I'm sure, feel just the opposite.
 
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ddk

Guest
David, I think the point is that they all seem pretty good, but display a difference. One might prefer one or the other type of look (i.e. Kodachrome vs Ektachrome, etc.). If profiles can be tweaked, it removes that element from one's process.
That was might point too, they all look very good. Problem is I like Kodachrome, Ektachrome, and Fuji...
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
In the thread fun with MF images the question came up about the difference between Dalsa and Kodak sensors in there look of the file. Something I have noticed there is a difference on how they render between the Phase backs. Now obviously this should be done in a studio but these are all outdoors with a Macbeth Color chart. This goes back to my thread on the P40,P30 and P45 testing. I noticed a difference in the color rendition between the backs . The Kodak sensors look almost identical but the Dalsa has a different look. Now going back several months ago Jack and I noticed this when testing the P65+.

The question came up if we switched the color profiles in C1 what would it look like. So i tried it and there is a difference fooling around with the P40 files and switching profiles.

These first two are standard and no changes made to the profiles they are the P30+ and the P40+ with there own outdoor daylight profiles . I WB off the second grey patch from the left. Okay these are the gold standards from each back. Just for clarification these are all Plus backs
Guy - It looks like the sky in the P40 own profile is "washed out" compared to the P30+. The rest looks similar if not just slightly better (cleaner) in the P40.

Any thoughts?

Don
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That was might point too, they all look very good. Problem is I like Kodachrome, Ektachrome, and Fuji...
Now here is the other issue if your not comparing it against another than who knows what one may like or not. What I see is a difference mostly in the skies. Now these are early in the morning also about 5k in Kelvin so not exactly like mid-day sun temp of 5400k or so. As far as detail and all that they are all screaming good,no question on that. These MF backs just perform as well as Hassy, Sinar and Leaf backs. So that part is really not the issue. I like the P40+ but when doing landscape I like the look of the Kodak in daylight stuff. In this sample I'm not as crazy on the P40+ as I am with my own P30+ for example.

The other part we are forgetting too is tweaking with color editor, WB and other various tools in these raw converters so reality is there are no absolutes because we can pretty much control anything and I would buy the P40+ in a heart beat if the funds where there. I just find it interesting that sensors have a different base look. None of them are bad just different.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy - It looks like the sky in the P40 own profile is "washed out" compared to the P30+. The rest looks similar if not just slightly better (cleaner) in the P40.

Any thoughts?

Don
Don looking at the P30+ and P40+ in CS4 you may notice the P30+ looks to have a touch more saturation and less DR by about 1/3 of a stop. The P40+ files are more open in the shadows and the profile has a little less saturation which obviously we can tweak. At least that is what I am seeing and the P45+ even has more saturation. Must be how these profiles are set in C1
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Don looking at the P30+ and P40+ in CS4 you may notice the P30+ looks to have a touch more saturation and less DR by about 1/3 of a stop. The P40+ files are more open in the shadows and the profile has a little less saturation which obviously we can tweak. At least that is what I am seeing and the P45+ even has more saturation. Must be how these profiles are set in C1
Also looking at the steel structure the P40 has a nicer look to it to the color. It's really the sky that has me baffled
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
As I keep looking at these I have to wonder if the Kodak sensors are giving more a false color or maybe better said not a neutral color overall. The Dalsa seems to me a more neutral color overall. Maybe it's the Kodak sensors that are not absolute looking.

Now you see how confusing your mind gets after looking at these awhile. It comes down to preference no question.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Now taking the P40 own profile in CS4. And lowering the quarter tone on the shadow side the sky looks a lot better
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Crap I knew I should have not played with this . I'm liking the P40 too much, this may cost me some real money. That steel structure has me going on the P40+. I'm starting to reverse my thinking here.
 

John Black

Active member
I like the P40+ but when doing landscape I like the look of the Kodak in daylight stuff. In this sample I'm not as crazy on the P40+ as I am with my own P30+ for example.
In my experience the Kodak sensor have a deeper, more primary blue. In contrast the Dalsa sensor have more of a cyan bias. Generally I agree Guy, the Kodak sensors in the P25 and P30 put out of bolder, more contrasty landscape shot. I think the P30+ has some of the most balanced colors. The P25 can get some muddiness in the greens whereas the P30+ sensor maintains nice color definition in the green channel. I've seen this green fidelity in the H3DII-31 files too. I'd like to see identical P30+ and P45+ files side by side to see how their color compares.
 
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