LJ - Have you used the ZD?
Here's a rather well thought out comment to pricing of low volume products:
Short and simple answer I think it is worth 15k for body and lens kit. Let's see what Leica thinks.
I would not pay more than 14k$ for the body and lens too!
Life is an ever changing journey
Used?....no. When the ZD was first announced, I waited until one finally arrived at a dealership nearby. I thought the idea and such was really interesting until I saw the execution. It is not a bad camera, but coming from using high end Canons and Nikons, it handled like an oversized, slow plastic box, in my thinking at the time. On the MF side, I was used to shooting Hasselblad film cameras, not digital, and the ZD seemed about as bulky, but with far less precision and finish. I was not impressed. I recently picked one up again in a shop, and frankly, am still not impressed. It is not a bad camera, but it just seems to mimic the 35mm DSLR form, but falls short on many of the more important functions for handling and speed. It also was not delivering that much more of an image than I can get with the high end Canons I use. The ZD sounded like a great offering when announced, but I still cannot see it living up to the expectations I may have for it. The S2 may fall into the same area, but it sure does not look that way at this point. Sorry if I have offended ZD owners, but that camera looks and handles like a bold step that has failed to some degree. Will a revamped version be better? That is another thing to wait and see. I still think there is promise, but so far, the execution seems less than great. (I feel the same way about the AFD/Phase bodies, BTW. They are on the third iteration at this point, and it still does not excite me. Others feel quite differently, and love the body. I am not one of those folks. Sorry.)
I have a slightly different feeling about the ZD, and find it quite attractive. It does have a slightly plasticky feel to it, but I don't see that as a problem. I don't see it as inferior to a 5D2 in any way that matters to me, and it is superior in the important ways.
Ultimately, I found it a bit limited and was unsure it would give me what I wanted (I am also not a Mamiya fan) and so I ended up with a Contax 645 and Sinar back, but I am sure that if I had bought it, I would be happily taking non-anti-aliased photos with great reds and detailed shadows at low ISOs
Carsten - Website
to be clear and fair, the ZD is not a plastic camera. It has a good metal alloy frame and such. It just has the feel of a plastic body that seems less sturdy. It may be the overall bulk of it that makes it seem that way. Not sure.
Secondly, in my very brief handlings of the ZD, I found it overloaded with controls (Nikon fans will like that sort of thing). I also was really unimpressed with how slow everything seemed on it. Took forever to get an image on the postage stamp sized LCD, for example, and the write to card was like molasses once the buffer filled. I realize that the files are big, but....
I was also not attracted to its rather limited ISO range.....50-100 for best work and starting to get marginal at 200 (fair amount of noise), and pretty ugly at 400. These are my impressions, and why I was not thrilled with the ZD. As I said, the concept is great....a bigger sensor in a somewhat more ergonomic body like a 35mm DSLR, but the overall execution just seemed to fall short for me. Sorry.
Exactly and I have yet to have a Phase issue on the back, body issue once but that can happen. Problem is the s2 the body goes so does the back. Now the lights on the other hand just made me mad, looks like I need to buy some more new lighting. Not liking this mono light. This is the one thing we have to wait to see is how reliable the S2 is. The M8 does not instill that with Leica , so they really need to come to the plate. It really is for me a matter of timing when all the stars align correctly. Nothing more but the idea of it I like
I got a call from one of my shooters yesterday night after she did her wedding, and right when there was a "no second chance" shot, the mirror fell out of her 5D
Hope your shoot goes well. Best of luck.
Crazy story about the 5D. I just bought two Canon G9s for another project. Both cameras died for a few hours with no explanation (and fresh batteries). They came back to life so all's well for the moment.
One of the batteries keeps jamming in the compartment, whereas the other battery ejects as it should.
It seems you can't rely on anyone.
http://www.graham-mitchell.com Graham Mitchell
Surely, you absolutely have to have a second (and third) fiddle. I can't imagine doing a shoot without knowing that if my main kit goes wrong then I can simply grab a replacement and carry on (sounds expensive with an S2, but perhaps one could live with a D3x or even an A900 for emergencies). Of course, this doesn't mean that they don't have to have a good backup service.
As for the reliability of the M8 - I agree it appears suspect (not hearing many problems now though), one of the reasons I always have two bodies around. Worst that's ever happened to me is that I've had to take out a battery and count to ten (swearing). On the other hand, there's a lot of M8s about, and people report problems, but not the lack of them.
I'm confused about pricing; it seems from reading posts here that a matter of $4000-$5000 would be life or death for Leica - how many days shooting does that kind of money represent? it seems to me that the crucial issue is whether the damn thing works (and yes, whether it's reliable) - much more important than a couple of thousand dollars.
I mean, what sort of a car do you drive around in? Did you get the leather seats? the sat nav and phone prep? The powerful engine? If not, then fine, if so, how much extra did that cost? What impact will it have on your business?
I still think the success of the S2 hinges on it's quality, not on it's price.
Incidentally, as I guess you all realise I'm positive about this camera, as I think it's a bold and exciting move, it might be worth saying that I haven't the slightest intention of buying one . . . not even if it's $5000. Not because I can't afford it, or even because I don't want one, but because it wouldn't suit my style of shooting.
Last edited by jonoslack; 18th July 2009 at 15:22.
Just this guy you know
Heck, I've had excellent results with no hiccups with a certain brand, but I'm afraid of saying what for fear of jinxing it ...
come on... spill the beans
I think it starts with an 'N'....
I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz
You know Jono the 5k difference was really not the big factor for many shooters back when business was cranking and all are bank accounts seemed in good shape . The last 5 months have been pure hell for business for almost everyone and the question of money difference has become a real factor since I never seen business this bad in all these years. I'm here in NY and the crying over business is really real for the top guns here. Business has taken a ugly turn and money a real issue. Even a extra 5 dollars your starting to shake sweet off your body. LOL
Guy, sorry to hear of your lighting malaise. Hope things get worked out.
On the pricing thing.....one of the reasons I do peg a bit lower on the S2 is exactly what you guys are describing.....the need for at least a second body. If the S2 would work absolutely flawlessly, never fail, never break, etc., then it might be worth it to pony up extra bucks for it. However, we all know that is a dream, so one must have back-up. The options are all somewhat expensive: have a second or third body, which is what may be needed if one is only shooting with that camera; have a back-up system, but let's not be fooled with how uncheap this could become when you take into account glass for that back-up system....even a lesser costing 35mm DSLR kit; return fees to client and just hope you do not lose any more business, or worse yet, get sued for contract breach or something on an assignment. None of those look terribly attractive :-(
So, until the S2 can prove itself to be absolutely bulletproof whenever used or needed, folks using it for earnings will have to have a second (or third) body, or support another system. Hence my bit of "low balling" in the price....I will either have to get a second body, or second system. The second body, like with the M8, seems a more likely path, so it has to be somewhat more affordable. As Guy mentions, even if there are plenty of rental places with spares to use, if they are not open when you need them, it helps little. I have always believed in going into assignments fully prepared, and that means carrying more kit than I want at times, but I know it is there and ready to go if needed.
So, that 5K difference in pricing can matter a lot more than one may think at first, especially in these rather difficult times. Once things improve, and once there is some used gear on the market, then maybe the price could become more elastic and creep up with demand, but for openers, it has to be more affordable considering what may be at stake for lots of folks.
Sorry for the somewhat repeating rant, but these sorts of things do worry me.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not unsympathetic, and things ain't so great around here for most people either. But I would have thought that was simply an argument to stick with what you have - not to change a thing. If you ARE going to change, then I stick to my guns, if the S2 delivers, then it'll be worth the asking price, if it doesn't deliver, it isn't worth a damn!
Just this guy you know
Hot and humid so thought I'd kill some time vs tackling more landscaping...As LJL talked about, you'd have to factor in what you'd be be willing to pay for an S2 vs Hassy/Phase/high-end CaNikon based on layers of perceived (real or not) risk:
-New body -- from a mfg with an iffy rep when it comes to camera electronics
-New AF system (actually commercial AF period)
-New lens shutter system
-Can double-up on bodies but now monetized 2x the risk as 2 bodies = 2 backs as well. No more old AFD/H2, etc sitting in bag just in case (JIC). JIC is now $20K+ gathering dust. $20K for ANY failure that kills ability to take a pic -- from complete sensor failure to a $0.10 non-op switch. Integrated is nice, but ability to jam back on borrowed body or dusty last-gen body to get the shot finished is gone.
-Maybe have use D3x/1Ds3/5D2 as BU but that means switch in workflow, lens duplication, different PP, limits ability to monetize SLR gear to BUY an S2, etc, etc.
-Time needed to get lens selection built-out
-Replacement lens avail in a hurry if.....?
-Time needed to get needed accessories in volume production
-New(?)/Undedicated PP SW
-S&S is weak, few locations, long lead-times are the norm.
-S&S training, tooling availability outside Solms for 1st 12-24 mos?
-Rental presence will take time given houses will wait until see how popular S2 is vs Hassy/Phase. Can't lean on rental backup to weak S&S
-Odds of, in worst case, getting 911 loaner body from fellow photog? Very, very low as few will have -- and that's a hell of a favor to ask vs their old AFDII, etc,
-How much of a fight will/can Leica put into making S2 viable?
-Won't buy share, so will have to push that much harder, consistently and longer to compensate.
-S2 is arguably make/break for Leica. What if......
-Inconsistent, 'everyone a spokesman' and very back-channel amateur-hr management communications out of Solms. Most real info seems to come out of meetings with 'the faithful' published on LUF, etc vs. official comm channels. Can I trust what 'they' assert on S2 roll-out timing and their dedication to it? Or, like R users, will I be fed 'the necessary promises'?
(Ability to) Bail-Out
-If I have change of heart, business can't support it, Solms just PO's me or I retire, how easily can I get out of this? How long will it take? How much skin will get cost me?
-Market penetration will be very low, even if successful, so resale market small vs Mamiya/Phase/high-end CaNikon.
-IF S2 goes south for Solms, will I have a uber-premium DMR on 'roids (with no used lens selection to speak of) on my hands that I need to liquidate?
-If I have 1+ backup units, my monetary bail-out risk is now that much higher
Given the obvious layers of risk buying-into an S2 kit vs. alternatives , I think a LOT of POTENTIAL buyers (aside from the well-monetized Leica faithful first adopters) whether from high-end DSLRs or MF will be sitting on the sidelines waiting to see how the S2 plays out for 12 mos+.
It will be up to Solms to see how they mitigate those perceived risks - and what staying power they have to wait for those fence sitters.
Last edited by robmac; 19th July 2009 at 08:21.
Do you really expect buyers in Europe to fork out 40% more for the same camera than buyers in the US?
The difference is close to six 6000 USD or 4200 euro ref to 18.000 MRP.
One email with a credit card number is all that is needed to save this kind of money.
Leica warranty is bound to be international for the S2.
Hasselblads new CFV 39 costs exactly the same amount of USD whether bought in the US or in Europe.
Manufacturers can not allow for these kind of price differences without either upsetting their dealers or opening the gate to large scale grey imports.
Louvre, your logic is 100%, BUT someone should tell Canadian distributors and dealers that - on any gear. Some within a given manufacture's line gear is like-priced (w/FX thrown in) but some, for no apparent reason, is priced at a "how stupid do you think I am?" premium vs what can be acquired via say B&H -even with B&H's heady UPS shipping.
Especially stupid given there are NO duties on camera gear, just VAT, which you'd pay regardless of where bought. Only one where stuck is Nikon - and their @#$% nation specific warranty.
All comes down to how much $$ the manufacturer wants to make (some folks will always buy local), how much they want to protect their in-nation distributors and dealers - and what they'll let the aforementioned get away with. If they price as Woody suggests, and if 33% of people, for reasons of paranoia, more money than smarts, etc., etc buy in-nation/EU and the rest pay NA prices, Solms still makes more in sales rev than if they priced globally at one level.
Last edited by robmac; 19th July 2009 at 12:03.
If I'm not mistaken, with Leica the really big draw has been the optics, right? I know I didn't buy an R8 just to have an R8 body (frankly, I think my EOS 1V or even the F3HP are the R8's equal...or even superior). I bought the R8 in order to use some fine Leica lenses.
So my recommendation, for what it's worth...Leica should charge a reasonable amount for the S2 body and a premium for the lenses. Assuming the thing works as advertised, I don't think most folks with feel too bad about paying $12,000 for an S2 body (50% over a D3X), even if they had to spend another $12k for a backup body. Then Leica can charge a premium for the lenses (as with the Sony does with the Zeiss optics).
Heck, if Leica REALLY wanted to do it right for the pros, they should offer this deal....first body full price, and if you purchase a second body within 3 months it's at a significant discount. :-)
That's a good idea. But then I (as an amateur) will demand an arithmetic mean for one S2.
That makes perfect sense. The most import worry with a new system will be reliability, and any photographer using the camera for a living will need some kind of backup. I would even go further: if Leica offers the body for a low price, and an even lower "buy two, pay for one-and-a-half" campaign, they could probably attract a lot of pros that are sitting on the fence. They know that people are willing to pay for their lenses, and that is where they will have to make their profit.
I realize that the differences between film SLRs (FSLR) are less than between DSLRs....so in certain respects, my comparison of an R8, EOS 1V and F3HP vs a D3X and S2 is inappropriate. Ok...so maybe an S2 is worth $15k, not $12k....I still think that if Leica REALLY wants to make a game changing "hit it out of the ballpark" move with the S2, they should offer a program for pros that will make the S2 almost too good to pass up. If they follow my marketing advice....watch out Hasselbald and Phase One! :-))
For amateurs like me who only need/want one body.....we will still pay full price for the first camera (sorry Nautilus!) and I can only hope that Leica will keep the cost at about $12k....for that price, I might actually be willing to sell some of my photo gear to get one.....but not the CFV! :-)
Last edited by bensonga; 20th July 2009 at 19:02.
DPreview (of all places) has reviled the S2's pricing in UK.
From their site:
Leica S2 Black £15,996
Leica S2-P Black * £19,092
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH £3,096
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH CS £4,025
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 £4,541
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 CS £5,160
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 £4,541
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 CS £5,160
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH £3,612
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH CS £4,231
Multifunction handgrip S £851
Professional battery charger S £258
I wonder what these numbers are going to translate to US Dollars
Not sure my calculator can go that high. LOL
Lens prices are a little on the scary side but let's see if these numbers are real.
Also no word on software ( or did I miss it )
also as I said on LL, I find this line somewhat interesting:
"that puts it squarely into the apparently troubled medium format sector."
For those about to look up current FX MARKET rates (rounded to two decimal places) before checking their Line of Credit limits:
1 Pound =1.17 Euros
1 Pound = 1.64 US$
Of course intra-market pricing won't necessarily follow such a simple formula.
Also, the "*" in the S2-P price of just under 20,000 Pounds DOES NOT stand for a kit, but an S2 with sapphire glass and a 'platinum' service package. Professional service/support packages to be marketed, details avail later.
Last edited by robmac; 29th July 2009 at 16:32.
That would make it $28,570.08 CAD.... cool
Lets not forget VAT/HST of 13%, so C$32,285 + lenses + support package + + + + + + + the 13% on all the "+s"
I'll probably pass on the sapphire glass
Oh, for those looking for a ray of sunshine, the prices listed above (DPR apparently jumped the press release gun) DO include 15% VAT..snark, snark.
Last edited by robmac; 29th July 2009 at 16:45.
If that pricing holds true, we're talking in excess of $50,000. USD for a diverse pro set up.
Hmmm, er ... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of my league these days.
Does any one here know how much a Hasselblad H3DII-31 retails for in the UK?
Robmac I doubt the prices are going to be a direct translation to dollars... No? ( I hope )
Last edited by arashm; 29th July 2009 at 16:50. Reason: One day I will learn how to spell :(
I have been waiting on before forming an opinion.
I guess i am still waiting for US pricing, but the trend is not positive.
Let say you optimistically use the Euro/Pound rate and use that figure as the nominal US$ market price -- you're looking at spitting distance either side of $20K for an S2-P body only - ex VAT. That said, there is that proprietary '...Leica 37MP = Hassy/Phase 50MP...' pricing factor to account for as well... LOL
Too close a nominal price and UK/EU buyers start sending love letters to US dealers (typical global warranty?) - assuming duty and VAT schedules make it prudent. Use a straight Pound vs. US$ FX rate based US$ price and US dealers start sending Solms hate mail.
Given DPR has apparently let the cat out of the bag early (vs. Friday?) , folks in EU and NA should know the gory details soon enough.
Last edited by robmac; 29th July 2009 at 17:12.
I am holding out hope that US pricing is lower than the UK prices converted to US dollars. I was also hoping that Leica would offer a camera plus lens package deal. I know that is a lot of hope.
Well, if these prices are real, and even if they do translate from pounds to dollars, or close enough when the VAT is excluded and such, this is still a bit stiff an asking price. The 16K pounds, if done as $16k in the US....or close would be a very good starting point....IF it included at least the 70/2.5 non-CS lens, and folks could work from there.
Will wait to see some formal announcement soon, but this is not as encouraging as I was dreaming for ;-) Next, we will also have to find out the actual performance and then learn about the service packages. At least some news is coming out, so that is a good sign.
Actually looked at Robert White UK website, Hassy H3DII-50 sans lens is 15,995 Pounds (albeit EX 15% VAT).
I knew Solms were pre-conditioning folks with their 'our 37MP = their 50MP' BS, but I never thought they would be so close (15%) to literal about it. ;>
actually seeing that you'd have to crop down to a 3/4 ratio, that would make it more in line with a H3DII-31 for "me".
Hence I was wondering about it's price in the UK.
I was informed on LL (thank you) that it's 9995.00
rather confusing I must say...
If you're willing to go with a demo 31 kit, you can apparently save 550 (9445):
Well kids my feeling right now if i had to buy something. Let's say someone actually had the gun at my head than just replacing my back with a P40 Plus makes way to much sense to ignore. If I do the math on this to get in with a setup looks to be way over the top. Not when P30 Plus and H3/31 are around for a song. After doing the p30 against the the bigger back there is no REAL difference anyway. 6 extra MPX is worthless and i would rather have the bigger sensor and more important 4/3 shooting ratio.
For Leica's sake i hope these posted prices are there wet dream and they will wake up to reality in the morning.
Looking at Dale's thread, the question is answered - not quite the the official US$/Pound FX rate - but not off by far... US$28K for the S2-P vs ~US$33K using straight FX rate.
Performance and service will be the criteria in the pro world that this camera is aimed at.
Extra $K comparisons may weed out those impacted by the economic down-turn, but superstars won't care as much ... IF this sucker delivers the goods and is backed with pro service.
Since I'm not a superstar, or a mondo rich industrialist/doctor/lawyer, I won't be one of them
Just this guy you know
Hasselblad H3DII 60 camera - without lens from Dale Photographic in the UK Our Price £27,019.00 With VAT
Last edited by David A; 30th July 2009 at 10:20. Reason: The price was with VAT I put + VAT, sorry