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Leica S2 Pricing

arashm

Member
SO...
If your interested in the S2 I'm wondering what's the most your willing to pay for it.
The recent event at Fotocare in NYC had me thinking, one of my friends who attended the event said basically the most asked question was "how much?"
I'm a working commercial photographer, rent DB's a lot, but my work horse is a Canon 1Ds3.
So here we go, the most I'm willing to pay is $15,000.00 USD ($12k would be a sale) and yes it's probably way too low, but I'm being honest; anything more and as nice as it maybe, My wallet is not interested.
So what's your line in the sand?
remember this is all personal opinion, so nobody is wrong.
(PS this is one of the friendliest forums, so I'm looking forward to a good conversation.)
Thank you for your thoughts in advance.
am
 

arashm

Member
Hi Jono how are you?
yes your right, so this is assuming that it's as fab as Leica makes it sound.
I for one think it will produce images on par with current new MF DB.
Think of this more as a "feeler" for what people would want to spend on the new system.
so what's your price? if it was all to your liking??? ;)
am
 

woodyspedden

New member
Regardless of whether we are willing to pay it, Stefan Daniel, product manager for Leica cameras, has leaked that the likely price will be around 20,000 Euros. If you look at past history the price in Euros (which I believe includes VAT) for the European market has led to equivalent pricing in dollars for the U S Market. In other words expect the body to weigh in at about $20,000. Just my humble opinion based on reading the tea leaves.........no data here

Woody
 

carstenw

Active member
Herr Doktor Kaufmann said they were hoping for a price less than €15k. Where did Stefan Daniel say €20k?
 

arashm

Member
Woody
but this wasn't about how much are we guessing leica is going to price it at..
this is about at what price are you going to be saying "I'm going down to buy me a S2 today"
?
am
PS your probably right about the numbers!
 
D

ddk

Guest
I went to Fotocare too yesterday and there still was no working camera and only two out of the 4 lenses were real, of course those two aren't the ones that I'm interested in. There's another issue here that the S2 has no dedicated raw processor at this point and adobe is the only one around, by default, that might support it. Yes, S2 produces DNG files but we all know the difference between files from a dedicated processor and generic PS files. I'm pretty sure that the Leica lenses are going to be first class but then again so is my Contax and Hassy glass; the Leicas have to be substantially better in really obvious and important ways to tempt me to switch. My only reservation is the feel of manual focusing with them, they're just as imprecise as the current run of af dslr lenses.

There are parameters that are important to me, like shooting speed and higher iso performance, neither of which seems to be setting any new standards as of now.I have/had? more than a passing interest in the S2, actually I am/was? quite keen on the camera but as Jono said, it all depends on how good it is!
 

georgl

New member
I don't know why they still show early prototypes, as far as I know, 50 preproduction-models exist since months!?

"There are parameters that are important to me, like shooting speed and higher iso performance, neither of which seems to be setting any new standards as of now"

It's nearly twice as fast as DSP-based MF-systems (I hate the slow processing of my DSP-based M8) and it's the only system with the newest CCD-generation AND microlenses (and the lenses are faster, too).
 
D

ddk

Guest
I don't know why they still show early prototypes, as far as I know, 50 preproduction-models exist since months!?

"There are parameters that are important to me, like shooting speed and higher iso performance, neither of which seems to be setting any new standards as of now"

It's nearly twice as fast as DSP-based MF-systems (I hate the slow processing of my DSP-based M8) and it's the only system with the newest CCD-generation AND microlenses (and the lenses are faster, too).
I was told that shooting speed is 1 per 1.5 seconds, both the Leaf and new P40+ have that beat. The lenses are a bit faster but I rarely use my lenses wide open right now.

I was also surprised that they didn't have a working prototype yesterday, specially this late in the game...
 
D

ddk

Guest
There were two bodies, one was a non-working mockup like the 35mm and 120mm lenses. The other one AF'd and you could see images on the LCD but didn't record to card, or so I was told by the Leica person.

They had a semi-functional camera like this one at PhotoPlus last October, I remember that AF worked and you could fire off shots but I don't recall if you could see any images on the LCD or not.

This statement in the review is distinctly different to the information that I was given:

"The S2 on display at fotocare was one of three S2 pre-production models sent out from Leica's headquarters in Germany for product demos."

I was told that the working S2 is only a barely functional unit and Leica was adamant to release any preproduction units until all firmware and hardware were finalized.
 

LJL

New member
Back to the question by the OP.....assuming everything hits the marks on performance and function with the S2, what is the trigger point that one would buy? Well, personally, I would be ready to jump in for about $12-14K.....including the body and the 70mm f2.5 lens. The only other thing might hold me back would be stratospheric lens prices beyond the 70mm. If every other piece of glass might cost $4K or more, that would certainly dampen my enthusiasm for buying into the system, even if it delivered as it is being marketed. I could not live with only one "normal" lens for my interests, so those costs must be fit into the equation for buying.

LJ
 
D

ddk

Guest
I'm doubt that they can come in that low, what you're mentioning was what they thought the R10 might come in at. I'm with you on lens pricing...
 

carstenw

Active member
LJ, if you have looked at the cost of other Leica lenses, I think it is pretty clear that this system isn't for you.
 

woodyspedden

New member
Herr Doktor Kaufmann said they were hoping for a price less than €15k. Where did Stefan Daniel say €20k?
Carsten

I will try to find the link. It was a speech given by Stefan at an event in Germany within the past several weeks.

LJL In my opinion $12-14K including lens is very unrealistic. This would be below current prices for most equivalent Phase or Hasselblad offerings and for sure Leica won't be the price leader in the MF market. My personal hope is that the body comes in under $18K and the 70mm lens under $5K. At those prices I would jump because I believe firmly in Leica optics and the state of the current M8.2 shows what they can do with firmware (and I might add without help from their "partners" like Imacon!)

Leica had some really hard times and made some bad decisions at the outset with their digital products. It appears to me that they now have very solid bodies in the M8 and the S2 if it works as advertised. No one except the more special purpose lenses from Schneider and Rodenstock will outdo the Leica optics. And of course the tech camera lenses from these two optical giants are in the same price league as the Leica ones.

So I hope I have answered directly the question posed by the O.P.

woody
 

woodyspedden

New member
One other thing.

I would also love to have a tech camera which would be non-obsolescent regarding backs i.e. you can upgrade backs from current entry level ones such as the P25+ to the now state-of-the-art P65+ from Phase. The body and all other elements stay in place so being at the state of the art is just a matter of trading UP.

The Leica system of course is like all of its DSLR counterparts which is to say the sensor is integral to the body. (Unless Leica has some means to do sensor upgrades within the S platform! Now wouldn't that be sweet LOL!)

Woody
 
L

Louvre

Guest
If you look at past history the price in Euros (which I believe includes VAT) for the European market has led to equivalent pricing in dollars for the U S Market. In other words expect the body to weigh in at about $20,000. Just my humble opinion based on reading the tea leaves.........no data here

Woody

Maybe change the tea...

20.000 euro is a little over 28.000 USD.
Better count on that for the American market.
The only advantage may be deduction of sales tax that could be included in the announced price.
That still leaves around 24.000 USD exclusive American sales tax of course.

No manufacturer will allow for large price differences between Continental or American markets.
That would cause too much uncontrolled exports to the market with higher rrp.
 

LJL

New member
LJ, if you have looked at the cost of other Leica lenses, I think it is pretty clear that this system isn't for you.
Thanks, Carsten, but I already own Leica glass, and have seen the prices, etc. The one piece of this that Leica kept stressing early on in its hyping of the S2 when first announced, was that with their entirely new lens design, and commonality of parts, they would be able to make great lenses at more affordable costs. Seems like a lot of folks, maybe even Leica, have forgotten about that bit of pitch. Most of the lenses share the same barrel and fitting sizes. Sure, there is a lot going into the glass elements and such, but one of the points of the entirely new lens design was to get toward a more streamlined build and ultimate cost.

Now, if you are happy paying $5-10K for glass just because Leica has always been so-o-o-o expensive.....be my guest. I have, maybe somewhat naively, been taking Leica at some of its words....their building a camera system for professional photographers, not just collectors or gear fanciers. If they want pros to buy, they have to price it rights, because most of us will need more than one body and one lens.

LJ

P.S. Carsten, I am sure you did not mean your words to come across in such a snobby way. Fact is, Leica has talked about the S-system as being exactly for the kind of photography I do (except my long lens sports shooting), so in that respect, the S2 IS for somebody like me, but cost DOES matter for anybody in business, Leica and photographer.
 
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LJL

New member
LJL In my opinion $12-14K including lens is very unrealistic. This would be below current prices for most equivalent Phase or Hasselblad offerings and for sure Leica won't be the price leader in the MF market. My personal hope is that the body comes in under $18K and the 70mm lens under $5K. At those prices I would jump because I believe firmly in Leica optics and the state of the current M8.2 shows what they can do with firmware (and I might add without help from their "partners" like Imacon!)

woody
Woody,
It may seem unrealistic a price point from your perspective, but not so much from mine. The now non-existent R10 would have been less than this in order to compete. The Hasselblad and Phase offerings are not a whole lot different for what they are offering. In my thinking, if Leica really wants to get into this game, the one they keep talking about for the "professionals", they need to do things differently with this S-system. They need it to sell. They need to have folks buying and using it, not collecting and coddling it like many of their other offerings at staggering prices. I used to shoot M4s. They were not cheap at the time, but still affordable compared to other stuff, and Leica did very, very well with them. I think Leica will have to hit the market with a performing and affordable S2 if they have any hopes that pros will buy into the new system, and more importantly, maybe liquidate their other systems to get more Leica kit.

No harm, no foul. If Leica wants my business, they are going to have to be far more competitive on price, service and performance. Simple enough. If they would rather keep prices out of reach for many working photogs, that is their business. Hope they do well.

LJ
 

arashm

Member
Woody,


No harm, no foul. If Leica wants my business, they are going to have to be far more competitive on price, service and performance. Simple enough. If they would rather keep prices out of reach for many working photogs, that is their business. Hope they do well.

LJ
This is partly my point, at anything above $15k it's going to become a rental product only.
which translates to one less sale for the company to a working photographer.
am
 
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