Leica S2 Pricing

[Georg Baumann]

Personally, I am suspicious about a system that was supposed to be on the market in January 2009 already. "Only final firmware changes".... was the word and then it was supposed to be May.... now it is supposed to be September>

Clearly there are problems, of what nature we do not know. What implications the "divorce" from phase one has had on the whole story, we don't know either.

I understand the hype amongst Leicaphiles, and I think it is very clever marketing to have created such hype upfront.

Then again, in a stormy sea, I would not jump blindfold on a boat that no one really knows how good it is. In the digital world, Leica has a lot to proove I think. Hassy has lowered prices significantly, and they are a proven solution with all the pros and cons, same counts for phase one. Concering Sinar, I would consider them to be on hold for the moment, and there are questionmarks about their future.

Economical reality is the other factor that will be a hurdle for them to take before they achieve desired sales targets. Let's face it, reality is that many Pro Photographers are dealing with a substantial loss of income, this at least is what I am getting from talking to people on both sides of the pond.

Phase has now a 60MP back, and it is selling, so what does that mean for Leica? In my opinion they are very late to the game, and the cirumstances are not getting any better.

I would put a big questionmark behind their Market analysis concerning their sales targets which they expect to hit. Let aside the few Leicaphiles that can afford it, already bought into it, and can not wait to part with their cash, the rest of the market has taken a severe hit.

I think that the installed user base from phase and hassy is less likely to ditch their investment and move to Leica.

Taking such things into account, I would think that a kit incl. the 70mm needs to be in the Euro 15 K region ex VAT.

 

[carstenw]

Thanks, Carsten, but I already own Leica glass, and have seen the prices, etc. The one piece of this that Leica kept stressing early on in its hyping of the S2 when first announced, was that with their entirely new lens design, and commonality of parts, they would be able to make great lenses at more affordable costs. Seems like a lot of folks, maybe even Leica, have forgotten about that bit of pitch. Most of the lenses share the same barrel and fitting sizes. Sure, there is a lot going into the glass elements and such, but one of the points of the entirely new lens design was to get toward a more streamlined build and ultimate cost.

That's right, I do recall that now, but this is offset by the sheer size of the glass. These lens elements are much larger than most of what they have made before, except some of the very largest, and very most expensive, R lenses. I don't expect the new lenses to come in much below $4000-5000 a pop. I think that the 70mm may be cheaper, and maybe one or two others, but most I would expect to be in that $4-5k range.

Now, if you are happy paying $5-10K for glass just because Leica has always been so-o-o-o expensive.....be my guest. I have, maybe somewhat naively, been taking Leica at some of its words....their building a camera system for professional photographers, not just collectors or gear fanciers. If they want pros to buy, they have to price it rights, because most of us will need more than one body and one lens.

Maybe what I wrote came across differently than I thought. I am not going to buy this system unless my life changes in huge ways. I looked at the expected pricing, and even factoring in a minor miracle, the financial load it too high for my situation. Not being a pro, I can't even write it off. But I don't think that it will too expensive for everyone, not even too expensive to be a success. There is a great number of people out there who have this kind of money, even photographers. The camera is aimed at fashion, and this may also be where the first purchases come from. David Farkas pointed out that he has all sorts of people on waiting lists. Look at the sale of P65+ backs too: booked for months. Clearly there are people out there still spending big bucks on photography.

I think we forget that this forum is not the norm. Landscape photography may be the last market which makes sense for the Leica S2. There aren't many fashion photographers here. Graham is one of the few, and he has chosen to operate primarily in a small market. Are you shooting fashion in a major market?

 

[carstenw]

Personally, I am suspicious about a system that was supposed to be on the market in January 2009 already. "Only final firmware changes".... was the word and then it was supposed to be May.... now it is supposed to be September.

Are you talking about the S2? From every interview I recall the date was end of summer 2009, i.e. beginning of September. This has never changed. Where did you see anything else?

 

[georgl]

It was always "Summer 2009" - the preproduction-models seem to work well, they verified "September" recently.

Guy Mancuso has made great noise-comparison of backs:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8090&page=2

P40+ and P30+ are about one stop behind todays 20+MP-DSLRs (always remember: CMOS-RAWs are filtered!), the P40+ has no microlenses, the P30+ uses a 4 years old sensor - the S2 has microlenses and a new sensor.

ISO800 will be perfectly usable and I don't even want to start about the differences in lenses, f2.5 on a modern Leica-lens is not f2.5 on a L-lens, not if you really want to use the additional MPs you've paid so much for in the recent upgrades!

DoF is simple: The S2 has a 56% larger sensor than 35mm, so f2.5 equals about f2.0/f1.9 on 35mm (100% are one stop, 56% a little bit more than half a stop) - I've seen open-aperture close-ups with the 70mm and they have a really narrow DoF.

The S2 is not for people who use technical movements regulary. The non-interchangeable back itself is not so much of a problem, regarding the price difference between bodies and backs!
The >39MP-backs only make sense regarding IQ under certain conditions, mostly using technical lenses which are capable of delivering the necessary resolution with low aberrations and high contrast.
It's absolutely senseless to invest tenthousands of dollars into more MP without willing to invest equally high sums into lenses. High-quality lenses are expensive and I fear the S-lenses will cost about 5k$ each - but they are longtime-investments!
Prices are difficult, it will be more expensive in €-land to compensate for the low $ - maybe even 1:1! Ok, I make a guess, let's see if I made an idiot out of myself when the prices are released in a few weeks:

S2-body: 13k€/16k$
S2 w/ 70mm: 16k€/20k$ (20k$ feels like the "magic barrier")
35/120/180: 4k€/5k$


"I was told that shooting speed is 1 per 1.5 seconds, both the Leaf and new P40+ have that beat."

It's 1.5/1.6 frames per second! And while that is only about 60% faster than modern backs, it doesn't seem to slow down while shooting fast series. What really makes the difference for me is the faster handling, my M8 is always busy with writing files, zooming in... the S2 works instantaneously.

 

[robmac]

Taking Leica management's recent (out-of-the-blue) idiotic and utterly BS comments about the S2's sensor + their glass = competitors' 50MP offerings as blatant softening–up for some sticker shock: I'll call just under 20K Euros, body only. Lens and accessory prices that will make your eyes water, minimal lenses avail at day of intro.

Also, my spidey-sense is telling me very good chance of a delay in availability. Without getting into an endless debate about the minutiae behind it, call it intuition/reading tea leaves, sunspots, whatever - and hope it's wrong.

I love Leica glass and film cameras, love the innovation the S2 represents, but as I said in another thread, as much as it's IQ would be great, baring a radical change in behavior from Solms (and some luck) this thing is looking more and more DOA (outside the clan of the die-hard Leica faithful) with every passing week.

It was a great idea, even at expected prices -- had it been released during what was the PRIOR incarnation of the MF market. Timing is everything. As for the depth and breadth of the impact any POSSIBLE still-birth of the S2 would be...

 

[jonoslack]

Perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I'll say my piece

It seems to me that the assumption is that the target market for the S2 is pros who are already using MF, as a replacement for that. Talking to a dealer in the UK today, it seems that their MF sales are vanishing fast - the price drops from Hasselblad and others seem to have scared people away rather than the reverse.

However, I would have thought that the real target market is pros who are currently using the D3x / 1DsMk III, and who would like more, but don't want to embark on what is a scary and unpredictable MF trip (and believe me, if you're sitting on the edge watching it looks SCARY I am, and I know).

This is a much bigger marketplace, and looking at the history of Leica prices, although the investment might be bigger, it's likely to hold it's value better (especially now the rest of the MF market is rushing out new models and dropping prices on old ones).

Of course, there is one thing that really is important . . . It's got to work, and it's got to be really good. However, assuming that is the case, I don't think it'll be DOA. But I do agree that it's not going to sell much to existing MF users.

 

[nei1]

Its just possible that in a few years software will be sufficiently sophisticated to upres and reliably interpolate say a good 15 megapixel image up to any thing you want.Or maybe not.If leica is investing so much in this I supose its impossible for any software to do the same.

 

[robmac]

Jono - I can see your point and am also on the DSLR/MF cusp looking in, but how does taking the huge leap in $$$ and uncertainty from say a D3x/1ds3 to an S2 differ from doing same to a Hassy/Phamiya?

The latter two may drop in price faster, but the $$ outlay will (in all but a certainty) worse for the Leica (on a MP basis), the 'orphan' product risk higher, the well-cooked PP software risk (at least as of now) higher, the product tech risk higher, the re-sale market much smaller if you have a change of heart/circumstance, a smaller lens line-up (at least for some time), etc., etc.

Maybe I'm thick, but I don't see many high-end DSLR users, outside the Leica faithful, forking-over the very large $$$ required for the S2 vs.

a) less $$$ and much lower risk for a Hassy/Phamiya. SLR-like form factor, LCD and Leaf+FP shutter lenses are only worth so much in terms of $$$ and risk - and only an advantage for a VERY finite period of time.

or

b) The latest and greatest D_X or 1DS_ for FAR less $$ and FAR less risk - and no learning curve.

Leica glass will be an advantage on a case-by-case basis, but how much is that worth to an impartial shopper?

 

[woodyspedden]

Maybe change the tea...

20.000 euro is a little over 28.000 USD.
Better count on that for the American market.
The only advantage may be deduction of sales tax that could be included in the announced price.
That still leaves around 24.000 USD exclusive American sales tax of course.

No manufacturer will allow for large price differences between Continental or American markets.
That would cause too much uncontrolled exports to the market with higher rrp.

Disagree with your conclusions here.

Leica M prices show that the price in Euros, including VAT, is X say about 6000 Euros for a 21 Summilux. The price for the USA is then pegged at about $6000 for the US market. The difference in value between the Euro and the $ doesn't seem to be an issue.

Thus if the S2 comes into being at 18000 Euros for the European market it will likely be priced at about $18,000 for the American market. I don't know how to explain Leica pricing but history shows what has happened in each market.

Woody

 

[woodyspedden]

Woody,
It may seem unrealistic a price point from your perspective, but not so much from mine. The now non-existent R10 would have been less than this in order to compete. The Hasselblad and Phase offerings are not a whole lot different for what they are offering. In my thinking, if Leica really wants to get into this game, the one they keep talking about for the "professionals", they need to do things differently with this S-system. They need it to sell. They need to have folks buying and using it, not collecting and coddling it like many of their other offerings at staggering prices. I used to shoot M4s. They were not cheap at the time, but still affordable compared to other stuff, and Leica did very, very well with them. I think Leica will have to hit the market with a performing and affordable S2 if they have any hopes that pros will buy into the new system, and more importantly, maybe liquidate their other systems to get more Leica kit.

No harm, no foul. If Leica wants my business, they are going to have to be far more competitive on price, service and performance. Simple enough. If they would rather keep prices out of reach for many working photogs, that is their business. Hope they do well.

LJ

L.J.

I wouldn't argue your points here but my point is simply that Leica is not likely to enter the MF market as the price leader. Coming in below Phase and Hasselblad just doesn't seem likely to me, regardless of what may be accomplished (in terms of build up of market and ultimate market share). This would require an entirely new culture for the corporation and I just don't see it happening.

I will say though that if they came in with the S2 and the 70 lens in the $12K to $14K range you wouldn't be able to get one for about two years LOL! They would need entirely new factories just to keep up with demand.

Just my humble thoughts on the matter

Woody

 

[LJL]

Woody,
Therein lies the conundrum of sorts. The S2 is not like the other MF stuff that has a multitude of backs, bodies, lenses options, plus all the other finders, cables and other doodads that may be needed to make things work. It is also coming to the game with a smaller sensor. On the flip side, the S2 is also, in some respects, more than what the 35mm DSLR camps are offering, at least with respect to sensor size and optics. So, it really does not quite fit with either camp, though it is being billed as more MF than anything else. I still see Leica's biggest market audience being guys like me that are pushing the higher end 35mm DSLR stuff, like the way that gear works, and am not wanting nor needing to get over the cliff on the present MF train. (Jono's points about just how scary some of that can be are spot on.) It is not that I am afraid of tackling the MF mess, as I like to think about it right now, but rather would just like more of the IQ of MF, but with more of the handling and ease of the DLSR side of things. The S2 is looking to hit that spot. The issue still remains, at what cost, especially since there are no third party lenses, or any used market to turn to for it. Leica may think it is worth 20-30K euros or dollars when comparing themselves to the higher end MF stuff from Hassy and Phase, but they are really closer to the DSLR camp in many respects on sensor size, pixels, single body handling, etc., so that $8K or so top end for Nikon or Canon is more what that user group is used to.

It is NOT a simple matter at all. Leica seems to be betting the ranch on the S2 to a large degree (no R10 or DSLR coming, M8 and M8.2 at end of improvement life, M9 a ways off, and the rest is Panny stuff), so it would seem (to me at least) in their best interest to sell as many of the S2 as they can possibly make, even if the margins are not terribly high. They must create the market niche, since there are not many other real options for them. Price it at a great entry point and sell the daylights out of them to succeed.

Just more thoughts on this, and why I think it important for them to keep the price lower, rather than higher, despite their perceived lack of need to be a "price leader" here. They are going to be a price leader, like it or not, since they are in a market segment with really nothing else like what they are offering.

LJ

 

[dfarkas]

Leica may think it is worth 20-30K euros or dollars when comparing themselves to the higher end MF stuff from Hassy and Phase, but they are really closer to the DSLR camp in many respects on sensor size, pixels, single body handling, etc., so that $8K or so top end for Nikon or Canon is more what that user group is used to.

LJ

LJ,

The sensor in the S2 is only 2.5MP shy of the P40+ (37.5 vs. 40). The pixel pitch is the same (6um), and there is only an areal difference of 7%. Compared to FF Canon, there is almost double the amount of pixels (37.5 vs. 21) in a sensor that is 56% larger. I'd argue that the S2 is more of a direct competitor to the P40+ than a 1DsIII. Also, the S2 has no resolution-robbing AA filter.

I think we need to seperate body handling/size and speed from sensor and IQ. It is closer to 35mm when looking at the former aspects and MF when looking at the latter. From the beginning, this has been Leica's concept.

David

 

[jonoslack]

Hi Rob

Jono - I can see your point and am also on the DSLR/MF cusp looking in, but how does taking the huge leap in $$$ and uncertainty from say a D3x/1ds3 to an S2 differ from doing same to a Hassy/Phamiya?

Because:
1 Hassy - they keep bringing out new 'bigger' backs which zero out the value of the existing ones - one is locked in (as with Leica of course), and it certainly isn't a dSLR experience
2. Phamiya - terror - all the stories of incompatabilities and hassles and companies going bust and prices plummeting and lenses soft and . . . . it goes on and on, I take pictures, I really don't want to be hassling with the tech. Actually, I'm not going to be hassling with the tech - simple as that!

The latter two may drop in price faster, but the $$ outlay will (in all but a certainty) worse for the Leica (on a MP basis), the 'orphan' product risk higher, the well-cooked PP software risk (at least as of now) higher, the product tech risk higher, the re-sale market much smaller if you have a change of heart/circumstance, a smaller lens line-up (at least for some time), etc., etc.

Well I agree the Leica is going to cost more - I don't think the PP software is an issue - the S2 uses dng and everything from Capture to Aperture will deal with those as they stand (Aperture does a grand job with 'non specific' DNG files). I simply don't agree that the re-sale market is smaller - back to my original point, David has said it - IQ wise it may compete in the MF marketplace, but user wise I think it'll compete in the high range dSLR market, and that's a BIG market.

Maybe I'm thick, but I don't see many high-end DSLR users, outside the Leica faithful, forking-over the very large $$$ required for the S2 vs.

No, probably not even 1/10th of them - but that's still HUGELY bigger than the MF marketplace

a) less $$$ and much lower risk for a Hassy/Phamiya. SLR-like form factor, LCD and Leaf+FP shutter lenses are only worth so much in terms of $$$ and risk - and only an advantage for a VERY finite period of time.

or

b) The latest and greatest D_X or 1DS_ for FAR less $$ and FAR less risk - and no learning curve.

Well, I don't think it's less risk - either financially or technically, and as far as learning curve is concerned, that seems to me to be the big attraction of the S2 - it works like a dslr, and you can use Lightroom or Aperture to convert the files

Leica glass will be an advantage on a case-by-case basis, but how much is that worth to an impartial shopper?

Well, to this impartial shopper, it's worth a very great deal.

Back to the original point - if the marketplace for this camera is existing MF users, then it's doomed. If it's not good, then it's doomed as well.

Personally - I don't want a big camera. period, but if I were deciding between an S2 and a Hassy or Phamiya . . . having read the grief people have on these forums . .. I know that I'd be gritting my teeth and shelling out for the S2 . . . as long as it's good.

 

[stephengilbert]

"[H]aving read the grief people have on these forums?" What grief?

If you're going to make purchaes decisions based on internet fora, I assume you've avoided the Leica M8. Mine seems to work okay, but I read that the design and its implemenation were fatally flawed.

I don't see how people can say they're going to buy something without knowing whether it is a successful design, and without knowing what it will cost. Perhaps after they can show how it performs and suggest what they'll charge for it this thread will make more sense.

 

[jonoslack]

"[H]aving read the grief people have on these forums?" What grief?

Come Stephen - the MF forums here are full of anguish about some thing not working . . .or another, from the outside it looks both frightening and VERY time consumeng.

If you're going to make purchaes decisions based on internet fora, I assume you've avoided the Leica M8. Mine seems to work okay, but I read that the design and its implemenation were fatally flawed.

touche - I love mine as well, but there's a difference between people whinging because you have to take the base plate off to change the batteries . . . and complaining that a whole shoot in Kuala Lumpur was a disaster because of mirror slap using a £2000 tripod!

I don't see how people can say they're going to buy something without knowing whether it is a successful design, and without knowing what it will cost. Perhaps after they can show how it performs and suggest what they'll charge for it this thread will make more sense.

erm... I think I said 'if it's good' at least three times.
If it's as good as one might expect a camera with that size sensor and leica glass . . . then I"m not sure that the price is all that relevant. If it isn't that good . . . then I'm not sure that the price is all that relevant either :ROTFL:

 

[bensonga]

Getting back to the original question....what would I be willing to pay for it (assuming I was in the market for one)?

Answer: About $12,000 for the S2 body. This is the price of a new Hasselblad 503CWD-II with the 40mm CFE IF lens and a couple thousand less than new CFV-39 back. I figure I'd have to spend several thousand more for new S2 lenses and have to pay full price, since they won't be available on the used market for awhile. To my mind, a 50% premium over a Nikon D3X is about right.

But, since I no longer have that kind of play money budgeted for new photo gear....it's a moot point. Besides, I'm sure it's going to cost alot more than $12,000.

Gary
Alaska

 

[Bob]

I'll wait
then I'll see...
-bob

 

[robmac]

Jono - how goes it? Won't do a point/counterpoint. Lets just say we come at this sucker from two different mindsets ;>

 

[LJL]

LJ,

The sensor in the S2 is only 2.5MP shy of the P40+ (37.5 vs. 40). The pixel pitch is the same (6um), and there is only an areal difference of 7%. Compared to FF Canon, there is almost double the amount of pixels (37.5 vs. 21) in a sensor that is 56% larger. I'd argue that the S2 is more of a direct competitor to the P40+ than a 1DsIII. Also, the S2 has no resolution-robbing AA filter.

I think we need to seperate body handling/size and speed from sensor and IQ. It is closer to 35mm when looking at the former aspects and MF when looking at the latter. From the beginning, this has been Leica's concept.

David

David,
This is what I was trying to say.....the S2 is in its own new niche. Yes, it has the bigger (more MF-like sensor), but its build is more like a DSLR with that sensor fixed in a weather sealed body. It seems a bit odd to think that sensor size or pixel numbers creates the demarcation between MF and DSLR, as the earlier MF backs (and some today) had smaller sensors, both in size and number of pixels. Further, what is to say that Canon or Nikon or Sony will not pop a new DSLR into the market that may have 30+MP or maybe even have a sensor that is a bit larger than 24x36mm? Would that make it a MF camera? Anyway, I think the points are being understood by most....the S2 is an "almost MF" in the eyes of many MF folks, and a "uber-DSLR" in the eyes of some DSLR folks. I see no issue with that.

As for where it competes in the foodchain......as I commented, it is probably going to be gobbling a lot from the DSLR ranks, and hoping to peel some folks from the MF ranks. Hence my thoughts about where it seems to fit in the pricing schemes of things, etc. This is just my opinion, and based on what was asked, where I would be more comfortable buying into the system when released and assuming everything works as marketed. If I wanted the greater flexibility and utility of a full blown MF system like Hasselblad or Phase, I would buy into that, and deal with the higher costs and all the other things mentioned earlier.

LJ

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

It's a DSLR. It has an SLR form factor, it's weather sealed, it's anything a DSLR is, except it has a larger sensor and uses Leica glass with autofocus. Add to that dng file format, SD and CF cards and what seems to be good ergonomics in a fully integrated system, and I think it looks like better value than a traditional MF camera, even if it costs more than a Hasselblad.

I agree that this is a system that will mostly attract high-end DSLR users, photographers who want the ultimate quality in a portable system. As nice as the MF cameras are, they are not what you throw in your bag for a quick walk downtown.

The body and a couple of lenses of the S2 would probably fit easily in the bottom of my Kata weekend bag. No MF camera even comes close to that, partly due to the form factor and partly due to the size. Since I travel a lot, and travel light, this is a camera I could live with. A Hasselblad isn't. How much would I pay? Since I don't have the monies anyway, my estimate doesn't carry much weight here, but if I had them: around $20,000 for a body with two lenses. 35 plus 120mm would be ideal, but probably not realistic for that price.