With that how many dealers are out there selling Leica gear and availability getting a lens. Bottom line for the hobbyist this stuff may not be such a big deal since you have time to build your system and are not under the gun to produce but someone in the working arena just getting a new lens maybe tough to get on time for themselves . For example when the 180mm hits the streets how much stock is hitting the streets if it is only 20 lenses per week than it could be a issue for someone trying to get one fast. Sure we will here all the dealers say we can get you anything you want. Hmmm I owned both the DMR and M8 systems and a getting a new lens right away is not always the easiest thing to do. It's not like you can use something in the meantime either. Stuff to think about and as a Pro this stuff is important as a hobbyist like I said not the real need but still can be frustrating. New system will take time to get going , please don't let anyone tell you any different. Don't get me wrong I would not mind having one myself but I look at this from many different angles than the hobbyist. I will have to wait until this system is out for some time before it makes any sense than I still have to deal with price which make no mistake I still don't like it. I know exactly in my mind what this thing will do just by testing all kinds of sensors lately and this is being over estimated by a lot of folks. It will be very very good but not on a level it is compared to and priced at. This is my perception of it and it's not a bad thing but I am a realist and I know what these things can do just by shooting them for a long time. It's not a Hassy 50 or P65 and it's lucky to make it to the P40+, P45 + and the Hassy 39 offerings in image quality regardless of lenses involved. But it does have a feature set that many folks would love to have and mainly the only reason I am looking at it. But like I said Phase/Hassy could also just throw out a better body and game over for many folks as well.
Just really have to think about this stuff without bias. Anyway vacation is over and driving home , check in tonight.
They made there own new mount and without maybe and I mean maybe some third party doing it Leica made no options or can't make a adapter for there old existing R lenses due to image circle. Obviously there maybe a chance for a third party vendor to do something like bolt a Mamiya or hassy lens on it but I don't think it will happen in the near future and than it could run into all kinds of issues as well to be compatible. Big wait and see
Leica Store Miami
Just this guy you know
exactly! Once I had tried the flexibility and seen the benefits and advantages of such an open system the decision is pretty clear
Let me put things from my side into the right perspective:
1) for serious landscape work the best thing is a tech camera like the Cambo WRS and some Schneider or Rodenstock lenses. Well one needs a MFDB with such a camera, so this can be Phase or Hassi. Phase is more my favorite because I am addicted to C1Pro.
2) for the rest of shooting such a small camera like a S2 might be a great thing, as long as one can or is willing to afford both systems. If I just want to have a fast and light and smaller system with a larger sensor and more MP then the S2 is a great new product. Maybe if one goes on expeditions and trusts the Leica quality from the beginning - which I do not after all the worries I had with the DMR and the M8.
3) I think I will be satisfied with JUST the Phase and Tech camera, a decent MFDB and a bunch of great lenses for both
PS: BTW I find the post processing in C1Pro very cool and I would miss this if Leica builds their lenses as good, that you do not have to do these improvements in post processing. For me this is the wrong marketing decision
The algorithms/firmware/hardware that allow for long exposures takes the ambient temperature inside the back into account along with the length of the exposure and the ISO.
The result is long exposures on the Kodak sensors which are an order of magnitude better than anyone else using those sensors. If it's really cold outside (around 10F or -13C) you can do an all night exposure.
It's all part of what you get when you are able to completely control the hardware, firmware, and software.
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But we can ask John Milich if he thinks it will be worth it, and at what price... John?
"Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
Why ? Because the primary interest in Leica are the lenses, not the bodies (exept the M). So an adaptor for Hassy lenses to Leica S body for example has no real interest.
The buyers of the S system, if any, want before the S lenses before anything else .
Sorry Sinwen, but that's actually a misconception. You are partly right in that people tend to prefer Leica lenses, but the reason you don't see any other SLR lenses being used on Leica R is because Leica R has the longest flange to focal distance of common 35mm SLR's. It is possible to put a Leica R lens on almost any other mount with an adapter, but to put any other maker on Leica R would require a glass element in order to achieve infinity focus. But I do expect people to put other lenses on the S2, precisely because it is so expensive. If you use a certain lens only occasionally, would you want to pay 6000 dollars for it when you could just buy an adapter and use a mamiya, contax or Hasselblad lens? It will depend on the flange to focal distance, but I imagine the S2 is much narrower than the other medium format camera, so I doubt it will be a problem.
Lots of people also use non-Leicas on the Ms.
well, i have a few hasselblad lenses, i'd just have to pony up for the S2 body (gasp!)...if the flange to sensor plane distances work out and the diameters work, it could be do-able
Actually I know Phase sells a V adapter for the Phase bodies as well, so we have options in the Phase camp. As far as the H I can't keep up with the Hassy stuff myself. That whole system confuses me to some degree.
I don't care what gear I have.
Things I sell: http://www.shutterstock.com/sets/413...html?rid=61105
Frightening. I would not last 30 seconds after telling my wife on that purchase. I never ever ever came close to those numbers on anything photographic. Maybe over a 3 or 4 year period but in one purchase never.
So if you buy the least expensive version of the listed items you can be far away from $100,000. What a bargain.
However, if you buy the deluxe version of the cameras, and the center shutter versions of the lenses, you'll exceed $90,000 for two cameras and one of each of the listed lenses. And that's with the cheaper of the two service plans. No doubt future lenses will be quite competitively priced as well. I doubt a zoom will be much over $10,000.
I know that the dollar is weak, but that shouldn't be a problem. Leica doesn't need to sell in the U.S. They can sell their 1000 cameras elsewhere.
Anyone that can afford the S2 probably could afford this "power-pack":
That, and the Zeiss 250 SA would be nice if they could be adapted to the S2 ... like they can on a Mamiya 645, Contax 645, or used straight on a Hasselbald 203FE with a CFV-II/39 meg back that costs a paltry $13,000.
Leica have patented their lens mount design in the past and refused to license third party lens designers. Given the investment involved I very much doubt if this will change now with the S2. Heaven forbid, a Zeiss lens on a Leica!?
This is a process that started way back at the beginning of last year or before in my view when brand new R lenses were offered for sale at 50% or more discount by Leica dealers. This was a stock clear out long before the end of the R line announcement and before the current recession was even on us.
The writing was on the wall then, but like you I had my head firmly in the sand and believed that Leica would support the R through thick and thin as they always had with the M system.
Remember when Leica had said that a digital rangefinder was impossible?
It took an office equipment designer to design one that looked very much like a Leica...the excellent little Epson RD1 manufactured by Cosina. It suffered a few QA issues but it worked well enough and was the bees knees in the RF world until the M8 was born. It even took Leica M mount lenses!
Sorry Jorgen, but I no longer believe anything that Leica tell us.
The 110/2FE is in a league of it's own when it comes to portraits ... (think M75/LUX). That would be the first lens to adapt to the S2 IMO.
I can only begin to imagine the quality of your V portrait lens on the R8/9/DMR and yes I am sure that there will soon be little workshops springing up and eager to produce conversion kits for all sorts of lenses on the S2. If you don't mind stop down metering and MF it will be a much cheaper option than the S2 lenses that's for sure and who knows, the quality could be as good or even better.
There is even a manufacturer in Kiev producing a tilt and shift adaptor for Zeiss lenses to fit various cameras including the Sony A900. How long before he can make one to fit the S2 I wonder?
Whether or not Leica licenses the S mount to other companies is moot. Lets say it costs company A $100,000 to integrate an S-mount into their line-up, produce it, distribute it, etc. If 10% of the S users buy that lens the cost of the adaptation per lens (without any margin) is $100,000 / (1000 x 10%) = $1,000 --- plus the lens itself. Those new Zeiss "Classic" lens for the Hass are insanely expensive, so now add another $1k on top of that for the S mount. Yikes! I don't think the economics are there for a 3rd party company to produce S mount lenses.
On the other hand Leica would be very wise to sell adapters. Hass V on a S2 seems like a very natural fit. Many people do that already with their medium format Mamiya & Contax systems. If Leica is targeting professionals, then they need to provide a transition strategy. For somebody who already has Hass V lenses, they can start with a basic S2 kit and add S lenses over time. It's still quite expensive, but not as daunting as spending $50k from the outset for a S2 and lenses. Fotodiox or similar companies could probably do a cheap adapter for $120'ish per pop. But even the adapter makers would probably pass on the S mount adapter simply because the market is so small.
Such an adapter made by Leica would be a nice little profit maker for them. And it gives Leica a marketing story for how to transition V owners into the S family. Stop down metering isn't pretty, but many of us have dealt with it for years.
If a much larger user base begging and pleading for Leica to just put a simple lens table in the firmware of the M8 so lenses other than Leica coded ones could be used on the camera, and Leica refused....even as an option, do you really think they will start up a new manufacturing line to create adapters for third party lenses on their new S2 when they are trying to sell more lenses? That is almost more wishful thinking than Leica offering to sell the S2 body at a cost closer to cost, or with a smaller margin just to penetrate the market. I do not see Leica building an adapter for anybody else's lenses onto their cameras.
But . .. Hang on a minute. . .
Canon and Nikon and others tell us NOTHING - EVER about their intentions.
As for Lieca they clearly intended to produce an R10 with the spin off technology from the S2 - it was events which screwed it . . . not Leica. Added to which, they then admitted that they weren't going ahead with it. In neither case would other manufacturers give any information.
Of course, you could criticise Leica for trying to keep their customers informed to the best of their ability . . . .
Just this guy you know
It's important to remember events as they were.
. . . . it sounds like I'm coming across as an apologist for Leica, but when people are misrepresenting information (and there is lots of that on this thread), then it's only fair to put it right.
Just this guy you know
To my knowledge Canon and Nikon haven't abandoned their entire 35mm SLR user base after saying over and over that a new model was in the works (let alone pulling the plug on their entire 35mm slr lens line). N & C are no less immune to the world economy than Leica.
And given the r&d Leica should have been (and probably was) investing in their "first" digital 35mm SLR (the DMR was a stopgap solution to buy time) it certainly would not have required selling an R10 for upwards of 9K. If they weren't investing time and $$ into an R10 than shame on them for misleading their user base all along.
This isn't (as many keep harping about) entirely about price. It's about trust, about past history with poor support for the DMR and M8, repair cockups that are too numerous to list, misleading information and then shutting down an SLR line that, five years after development still provides IQ with the best of the competition, albeit at smaller file sizes.
And for what? To more firmly entrench itself in the Hermes alligator clad super exclusive market (will there be a special "white" fur seal edition S2 for those who want to set themselves apart from other S2 owners) well- heeled few who want to show off their latest Leica jewelry?
What a pathetic joke this once "state of the art" company has degenerated into!
(high ISO does - more MP does - more AF points does . . .but IQ doesn't).
As far as trust goes - if you say nothing (as others) then there's no broken trust (no communication either).
Just this guy you know
Fact is Leica DID NOT put a table in the firmware. Period. They had resisted the entire concept with lots of reasons about how they could not possibly cover all the options, what they might be held responsible for in vignette corrections, etc. I was there too, complete with all the heated discussions and pleas.
Look, I know you and I have disagreements over some strategic things, but the way you look to be calling me out on this is out of bounds, I think. Bottom line, I have not misrepresented information here, as you intimate.
So in this case, you are coming across as a Leica apologist, and not setting any real records straight on this issue. Leica did not put a table in the firmware of the M8 to accommodate any lenses other than Leica coded lenses, which by the way are Leica lenses only, as all of the other coding, while it works and many of us use it, is not supported by Leica. Heck, they do not even support ALL of their M lenses with coding. Though the number is few that do not support, it is still there.
Maybe apologies to forum members rather than for Leica would seem more appropriate at times like these, eh?
Of course, our disagreements strategically are just that (and I thought we had had a rational and civilised private conversation about it).
As I understood the situation with respect to the lens table, there was a 'representation' to Leica, which I fully subscribed to, with respect to the lens table, and other issues, which really seemed that it was going to happen. Then there was an intervention by someone else (who doesn't post here), which muddied the water to the extent that Leica simply walked away (Just as I would have done in the same circumstances). it caused a lot of anguish, and a number of valuable contributors left.
So - as a final point - do you really feel that I need to be apologising to forum members here - because if you do feel that way, I will, of course, apologise, and withdraw. i don't need to be spending time where it isn't valued. If you don't feel I should apologise . . . perhaps someone else should?
Last edited by jonoslack; 6th August 2009 at 15:19.
Just this guy you know
As you say - nothing was aimed at LJL, who I simply disagree with (I even disagree with my wife sometimes, and nearly always with my sons!).
I'm not aware that he is ever guilty of inaccurate 'facts'. But I'm pretty grumpy about the idea that I should be apologising.
I guess my fate is in his hands
Just this guy you know
I'm lost here can someone get this back to some kind of normal.
This will happen as soon as Leica gives us some proof that this camera can deliver what it promises, or when the first real IQ issues surface. (m8) We soon will know where the road leeds.
O.K., time to get things back to some sort of normalcy......maybe, I hope.
First, my apologies to any members or readers that may have gotten into this fracas now scratching their heads and wondering WTF!! I sincerely hope and doubt that any of my comments or statements have been promoting anything but facts, but have carefully been stipulating conjecture or speculation. Yes, some of my comments have had a bit of a sting toward Leica, and personally, I am not ashamed of that. They have said and promised a lot of things and screwed up the delivery more than once on those issues. I doubt anybody here in unaware of that sort of thing.
Second, to Jono, I did take your comment as feeling directed toward me since you were responding to something I had put out there about Leica most likely not ever going to make lens adapters for somebody else's glass. I used the example of the M8 and how so many folks were so frustrated for so long when they 1) could not get their existing lenses coded in any reasonable timeframe, 2) could not get new Leica lenses delivered in any quantities or reasonable time (let's leave prices aside), or 3) really wanted to use some other lenses the had very nice drawing, but had some issues with vignetting, both before and after using IR/UV filters (more on that in a bit), and for which Leica had built in algorithms into the firmware to adjust for this with their coded lenses. So, folks were asking Leica for some relief, and at one point were even asking if Leica could make this an "upgrade option"....meaning they were even willing to pay for that sort of help. Leica looked for any way to shut that down, while still appearing to "appease" the masses who were really growing restless. One more straw to the request was all that was needed to let Leica walk away from something they were being "pressured" into, and for which I firmly believe they were not at all interested in ever doing.
(Sidebar: Leica even went so far as to make sure the UV/IR cut filters that were now required to correct the too weak IR cover glass on the sensor, which they tried to pass off as a design feature with too close tolerances to be done any other way, were of a slightly different strength and wavelength than the more available B+W filters, and pretty much the only other source for folks to be able to shoot color images with more or less correct IR filtering. The Leica filters were nearly impossible to get, even though they were passing out 2 free ones to everybody who bought an M8. They also cost more than the B+W filters, which were available and Leica would not recommend them, though they did not directly tell folks not to use them. Here we had a $5k camera that besides all the other issues, could not be used at the wider angles without the filters, and there were few filters available. So folks asked for at least the ability to get the vignetting corrected with non-Leica codes lenses, for which they had some filters from B+W, so that they could at least only have to correct for slight color shifts, rather than color and vignetting shifts. Leica did not help with that situation.)
Still reading.....thank you. Thirdly, Jono is correct, there have been a fair number of misstatements and flat out incorrect information passed along in this thread and others, that has not been called out every time, and gets perpetuated wrongly....on both sides of the debate. That is going to happen everywhere, but this forum has been pretty good about providing, or trying to provide accurate information. Sometimes emotions help twist and bend facts a bit, but sometimes stuff is just flat out incorrect, and it does nobody good to try to make decisions and choices or judgments from incorrect information. Jono, I just wish you had made your comment as a separate entry, and not tied it to my comments. I got washed with your brush, and I do not feel it was justified, hence my response.
Sorry for the long entry, but I felt like I got stung for no reason, responded, and set off a bit of a dust-up. I hope I have gotten a few of those issues straightened out correctly. I am sure somebody will add a correction if they need to.
I have been very honest and open about what I think Leica is doing with this S2. I love the concept. I want something like it. I think they have priced it at a premium that seems excessive, exchange rates aside. They have made some promises and proclamations over it that have yet to be seen or proven. It may deliver nicely, but we do not yet know that, and Leica does not have a very good record on that front with other releases and promises. They try to make good on things, and I think that is partly what keeps folks believing what they say, but frankly, there is a lot more marketing at this point than anything else. I am not suggesting anybody buy or not buy. Those are your personal convictions and intentions, governed by needs, budget, shooting style, etc. Just worth being aware of what you may be getting into, so you may not be too surprised later....either way.
Finally, the point that touched all this off was wondering if Leica would be making adapters to accommodate lenses made by somebody else. My opinion....not on your life. Somebody may try to get into that business, but I would bet Leica may aggressively pursue their patents and stuff. Further, I will go out on a limb right now by asking aloud, since there is nothing other than sales chatter, how much of the correction for the lenses is being done in Maestro? While Leica can make outstanding glass, there is no way any of us can know or test one of these new lenses against something else....Leica S2 glass will only work on the S2, nothing else, and nothing else will be able to work on the S2. So how are we to know just how much correction may be cranked into the file in-camera? For some folks that may not matter, but we still have the raging debates of DAC, Phocus, etc......at least there you get the option of turning it on or off. With the S2, since there is no proprietary software where one may have that option, you get whatever Leica pumps out to the DNG file....meaning we have no way to know what those really expensive lenses are or are not delivering without the in-camera processing. Can somebody answer that question without just sales speak?
Maybe I missed something along the way but when Leica said there wasn't going to be an R10 I thought they said there would be something else. They just didn't want to play the SLR game against Canon and Nikon. Has anybody thought about the possibility that Leica will do the "R10" as a mirrorless system (not rangefinder). A full frame version of micro 4/3 (obviously not called m4/3)???????
I'm posting a message in the Sunset bar, and I'll see you guys in late September - have a great summer!
Just this guy you know
This is what I meant earlier with getting back to facts and leaving the imagination alone. If we can't stick to facts, we can't have reasonable discussions, so let's make an effort not to make things worse than they are, and just keep that kind of statement out of it.
How true. Let me add though with regards to the M8 and some comments that may look like conjecture to some degree are not really far off from reality. Issue is most people never heard of certain things either even though some of it never came to bear, the discussions on some stuff is there and I will just leave it alone right there. That stuff is history and shall remain there. But many people feel slighted by Leica to a certain degree and given some of the M8 issues this is understandable. The bottom line is the S2 needs to separate itself from what history has shown. I think we all can agree that it needs to come out of the gate with no issues or limitations stuck on it's backside.
What we all need to realize is everyone on this thread was a leica fan at some point in time including myself and still am but as you see the history of Leica or how things have changed over a course of time has changed peoples thoughts on them and there products. This folks is NORMAL and happens with every different camera brand. Just go on any Canon or Nikon forum. LOL
Some might find this interesting reading. Leica Camera AG year-end results by segment vs prior year. Released yesterday.
google translation: http://translate.google.de/translate......de&ie=UTF-8
Here is a more detail analysis: (warning: some of the side bar images are not work safe - in NA ;>)
Last edited by robmac; 7th August 2009 at 05:57.
It is really interesting how this company - Leica - can still heat up most photographers minds
As many others I was burned badly by Leica and their digital products. I wish them the best for their S System, although I personally do not have hope for it's success even if it is technically perfect and working from the very beginning. Times are just history where one can ask this amount of money for this amount of product - just my 5c.
But it will anyway be interesting to wait and see how they do, especially how their IQ and handling can be compared to Phamiya and Hasselblad.
Let's wait and see
I was (am?) a Leica fan as far as the M8 and prior Ms are concerned, but My eyes aged me out and now I am hoping for two things:
1) All the best to Leica and the S2, hope it is absolutely fabulous and I will wait to see what happens.
2) If the S2 does come up to snuff, I hope that I can justify getting one.
Last edited by Bob; 7th August 2009 at 06:15.
A nice summary, and probably a good time to call a truce. Various things have happened in the past, some not so great, but I guess we all hope that the S2 will work out well. It will certainly make the landscape more interesting. The main difference between many of us is how likely we think it is, not what we hope for.
Thanks Carsten . Maybe we should look at Leica as a new chapter on this product and let's see how this one writes itself in time. They have a road to climb here and get even the Leica fans back in the fold with confidence and such. I think the end of the day even the more vocal folks against Leica hope they pull the rabbit out of the hat. The industry and especially the MF industry could use them to keep the balance. Many things have happened recently that lost a lot of faith in MF. That market segment needs a boast and i think we can all agree on that alone and adding Leica here is a good thing.