Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[monza]

I may be the odd man out here, but for a little company to engineer the development and tool up for an annual production run of only 1000 units, with manufacturing in Europe, these prices look amazing to me. If the average buyer spends $50k on their S2 kit, that's $50M in revenue; a pittance in the grand scheme of things.

 

[fotografz]

OMG! $3,800 for an extra year of decent service? How long is the standard factory service coverage that comes with the camera?

To make any sense it seems the CS lenses would be manditory. My goodness, those lens prices are simply breathtaking ... as in a punch to the solar plexus :shocked:

(Of course, this coming from a nut job that paid that much for a M 24/1.4 ASPH :ROTFL

$495 for premium service and $995 for platinum service on the lenses? What comes with the lenses ... "bottom of the pile service"?

The gear pricing actually doesn't surprise me at all. The service stuff does. It could have been a way to really tighten up a relationship with professionals and demonstrate Leica's confidence in the product.

 

[fotografz]

I may be the odd man out here, but for a little company to engineer the development and tool up for an annual production run of only 1000 units, with manufacturing in Europe, these prices look amazing to me. If the average buyer spends $50k on their S2 kit, that's $50M in revenue; a pittance in the grand scheme of things.

personally, I'd welcome 50K in net revenue with no expenditures right now.

I sure wouldn't spend it on 50K worth of gear to replace what I already have that gets the job done ... and that I'd have to sell at a ferocious rate of loss to get the S2.

For me, that is the crux of the problem. The S2 could replace two or maybe 3 systems but they would never add up to 50K ... and would leave me short on some performance aspects.

 

[gogopix]

I agree. Quality costs. A friend once told me there was a factor of 10 btween something 'just working' and 'best of breed. I think he was low (Yugo at $8,000 to RR at $320,000 is more like 40 to 1)

but in general it works. - a fine film camer (Nikon say) vs a Leica M, $500 vs $5,000

It is not linear.

That said, the market will be efficient in good times, so maybe Leica needs to be patient. Also, I have no doubt the S2 system will be as good, or better in some ways than Hasselblad-and you will spenf 40-50K new for that as well.

In the end, quality (esp R&D) depends on the consumer willing to pay. Four season's did not drop rates in the recession, as it wants to protect the 'brand' as much as hold quality up. Leica is doing the same. Both companies would go bust if they reacted to price senitive markets. I am sure many canon toting sport event photographers in the midwest would think ANY MF is pie in the sky.

So, some of use can't or won't spend for the S2. I will spring for a MB over a Honda, but not go to a Bentley.

We all make trade-offs, but Monza has it right-R&D is expensive. Just remmeber this-no generic firm has brought out a NEW drug. If we all pay low, where will innovation come from?

but healthcare is another story (and the Washington Post has decided to bore the DC area with pages of it!

Sorry :ROTFL

Regards
Victor

PS If you can;t tell, it's a bad hair day

 

[BradleyGibson]

Interesting. That would add up for me, selling a few thousand of these. I have absolutely no data in profit margins, but it's hard to see how even several thousand sales (not per year, mind you--I'm imagining several thousand, period) can constitute a business model.

Does anybody know where Leica's break-even point is with the S2 in terms of unit sales? (Or put another way, is a sales volume of a few thousand units enough?)

-Brad

 

[LJL]

Well, at this point, even if much of what is commented on is real, the price point is too high, in my opinion. Given that there is no alternative market for anything compatible (lenses, second bodies, chargers, etc.), it appears as if Leica has once again set itself apart from the market that might actually buy and use this system as intended.

This is quite disheartening. The lenses may be stellar (yet to be seen), but prices still seem over the top in light of Leica's touting how their new manufacturing process would make things cheaper to make. The body, while some will argue is a "body+back" for price purposes, is far beyond the pale compared to the 35mm DSLR that it more accurately mimics....in spite of the larger sensor with more pixels. I hear the arguments about pricing not be "linear", but the marketplace and users may have greater expectations of linearity in pricing, so Leica is going to have a very "non-linear" sell job to lay on folks to convince them to part with their money.

Just my opinions. I had real hopes for this system to possibly replace a good chunk of gear, and to streamline things over supporting several systems, but the Leica prices just cannot work with my math (new or old). I wish them luck. I will wait to see actual results and for a used market to possibly develop next year or later....provided Leica is still around to sell these and service them ;-)

LJ

 

[David K]

While the prices seem high in today's distressed marketplace it wasn't that long ago that my Sinar kit and a couple of lenses were in the same ballpark price wise. The timing for Leica is unfortunate but you can't fault them for not anticipating the current economic downturn. If their pockets are deep enough they will wait this out and, if the product is as good as I think is likely, it will sell.

 

[LJL]

David, that may be a compassionate way to look at things, but Leica, just like the rest of us, are trying to exist in this crappy economical climate. So, you are correct, that one cannot fault them for not predicting the present conditions, but they can be faulted for not adjusting their pricing and sales plan to better reflect those conditions. They have seen this developing just as long as customers, competitors, and potential customer clients have seen it. If one looks at recovery trends, whether they think they are optimistic or not, things look like a long slow climb up, and cost consciousness is going to be a new mantra for quite a while for a lot of folks....even those that may have the ability to cover these costs. Personally, I think they should try to flood the market with bodies at a much more reasonable cost, and make up some margin over time with lens sales. The $23K price for the S2 alone is just over the top, in my thinking.

LJ

 

[robmac]

Leica, as expected, priced the S2 using the M8/DMR model. Old habits are hard to break (assuming you even want to break them), the KoolAid is freshly mixed in Solms and this one's obviously a strong batch.

They'll likely sell their target 1000 units to the well-monied Leica faithful - the expected price justification from some is starting to intermingle with the shock from the rest on LUF already.

However, that 1000 units WON'T be to the 10% of the typical MF market they spoke of. Those folks are just shaking their heads - as they're unwilling, especially in today's world, to take a Solms-derived time travel trip back to 2007-2008 MFDB pricing - especially for a new entrant with an iffy (digital) new-model intro, S&S history, etc.

The majority of the actual buyers of the S2 at these $$$ will never have been in the market for a Hassy or Phamiya. However, now that Leica has an SLR back in the game and it happens to have a > 24x36mm sensor, they will become Leica-specific MF customers. In short, they won't be stealing share, but creating a small, niche market that happens to own what could be described as either an MF camera or a large DSLR depending on your mood and ego.

A handful of 'superstar' pros may acquire one to play with, but it will be one of many high-end systems they own - the bulk of which will derive the bulk of their revenue-generating work. As to the service such folks will receive - it's of little concern. If you're public profile is high enough, premium white-glove swap-out, etc service is a given from ANY vendor who's not an utter idiot.

Had Solms swapped the Kool-Aid for some Red Bull and looked fwd instead of backward at Leica 'tradition' (one of the great hazards of having a CEO/Owner who is one of the faithful), things might have been VERY, VERY different - assuming word got around that their service and support measured up. This was a chance, (very) arguably THE chance, for Leica (technology aside) to remodel itself and it's business habits -- and it stuck to the formula.

The trick will be as to whether or not, as Hassy and Phase (and Nikon, Canon and Sony) keep lowering the price/performance bar if that 1000 unit market (which will top-out in body sales relatively quickly in terms of years and units) will be enough to take Leica fwd comfortably.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Amazing. I was actually quite interested in this system, though expecting it to be a bit too pricey to justify. I did not anticipate the body price being this high in this economic climate though.

I could sell my Mamiya/Phase One kit with seven lenses, and sell my Canon kit with seven lenses and come up with less than a third of the cost of the S2 body and four lenses without premium service. I guess I'll pass.

 

[David K]

LJ, I understand your point and it's certainly got validity. I suspect the same discussion is going on at Leica right now. It's a tough call anyway you slice it. I had this same discussion with my partners on our last condo development which was completed just as the market tanked. Some wanted to lower prices below cost just to move units. Others (me included) wanted to mothball the project, pay the carrying costs and wait for things to improve. With the benefit of hindsight (almost two years worth) they were right and I was wrong. If I were Leica I'd try to move this kit at cost or even at a small per unit loss. I'd speculate that, even doing that, the price would still be very high.

 

[jonoslack]

David, that may be a compassionate way to look at things, but Leica, just like the rest of us, are trying to exist in this crappy economical climate. So, you are correct, that one cannot fault them for not predicting the present conditions, but they can be faulted for not adjusting their pricing and sales plan to better reflect those conditions. They have seen this developing just as long as customers, competitors, and potential customer clients have seen it. If one looks at recovery trends, whether they think they are optimistic or not, things look like a long slow climb up, and cost consciousness is going to be a new mantra for quite a while for a lot of folks....even those that may have the ability to cover these costs. Personally, I think they should try to flood the market with bodies at a much more reasonable cost, and make up some margin over time with lens sales. The $23K price for the S2 alone is just over the top, in my thinking.

LJ

Well I don't think this market is 'floodable'. One thing that IS for certain, is that if you sell things for a loss, you go bust.

My thinking on this is that they aren't going to sell very many at any cost that the average photographer will be able to afford - if they aren't going to sell very many, they need margin.

If it costs 10,000 to make and market . . . .
if you sell it for 11,000 you have to sell 10 times as many as if you sell it for 20,000. I simply don't believe that the price for kit like this is that sensitive.

If their sales target really is 1000 per annum worldwide, then I would have said that they'll walk it. I'm aware of photographers who'll buy it just to see, I'm also aware of plenty of well heeled amateurs who can get it . . . and then there are the collectors who'll buy them and put 'em on the shelf.

It's beautiful, cool and exclusive, and it has the red dot - if it works it'll sell.

It may not sell to working photographers and the average gentleman photographer like me, but it'll sell.

 

[jonoslack]

LJ, I understand your point and it's certainly got validity. I suspect the same discussion is going on at Leica right now. It's a tough call anyway you slice it. I had this same discussion with my partners on our last condo development which was completed just as the market tanked. Some wanted to lower prices below cost just to move units. Others (me included) wanted to mothball the project, pay the carrying costs and wait for things to improve. With the benefit of hindsight (almost two years worth) they were right and I was wrong. If I were Leica I'd try to move this kit at cost or even at a small per unit loss. I'd speculate that, even doing that, the price would still be very high.

David - the difference is that they haven't made them yet.
Much better than selling them for a loss would be to shut down the lines and call it a day.

As you say - even if they did sell for a loss the price would be very high. There may be a limited market, but what small market there is ain't likely to be that price sensitive - If you want it and you've got that kind of disposable income, then you'll buy it.

I would suggest that they really don't have the facilities to make that many anyway, which is another nail in the coffin of 'flooding the market'.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

The H3DII-39 with 80mm lens and VAT is £16100. There is no price given without the lens. I don't want to get into whether the lenses are equivalent, so mentally deduct a little for the lens. The S2 is £16000. I would say that the prices are extremely close, with the Hasselblad being a little cheaper. Leica always said that they would be competitive with similar products. I think they have delivered that.

Another issue is whether the price is realistic. It is out of my reach, but that is not hard

But for the S2 you then have to buy lenses. You just can't spin these types of numbers. I'll also be willing to lay money that getting expedited service with the Hasselblad is either included or a tiny fraction of the price Leica want (and if not it will be soon, they are very savy), plus they're universal in rental shops. Those last two matter more to pro's than even the first.

 

[LJL]

Jono,
I agree that they will sell....maybe not to the market they claimed to have targeted so much, but the others you mention will buy. That will not a success make, in my opinion. If they are fortunate to sell a body and lens, maybe two lenses, to that group, it is done. On the other hand, were they to sell the bodies nearer cost, they could get more into the market, and make up ground on the lenses. There is no other option for lenses to work on the S2, so a buyer is locked in. If the body were more affordable to those that may actually use it, there would still be good lens sales for them. The lens prices are not too far beyond what folks sort of expect from Leica, and if they deliver, as expected, there will be folks wanting those optics.

I understand your point about selling for margin, but I think that should be applied more to the lenses, and not the body at this point, but that is just my thinking on this. Fair to say, more disappointment on my part, as I was seriously thinking about the S2 to become a serious system for my needs, but at nearly $75K to get in (couple of bodies plus the glass), it is too much for me. If the price were closer to $45-50k for the same two bodies and all the glass, it would be a much more realistic consideration in my mind. Leica could still charge full fare for the glass, as it may really be worth it, but the bodies are most likely going to be used and replaced more often, so they need to be more affordable. Again, just my thinking on this. I understand your perspective, but remain disheartened by Leica's chosen scheme. It more or less worked for the M8, but there was a huge installed lens base and alternatives to help fuel the drive for the body. That is not the case with the S2.

LJ

 

[kinok1]

I dont post to this board often. Mostly because there usually is another member who says what i'm thinking in a much more eloquent way.

But today. Im pissed.

As a photographer who makes his living primarily shooting with M cameras I need Leica to stay in business. To remain strong, healthy, (and most of all) able to service my cameras and lenses.

So when i see that a fully blown out S2 system is going to cost 50k or so. And then i read that the S2 is 'the focus' for the company in the future.

I just shake my head. Maybe it is time to really give those zf lenses a go on a d3x. Not because the S2 wont be great. Just because, (and i pray its not) - it might be the anchor to finally sink an already leaky ship.

 

[jonoslack]

I understand your point about selling for margin, but I think that should be applied more to the lenses, and not the body at this point, but that is just my thinking on this. Fair to say, more disappointment on my part, as I was seriously thinking about the S2 to become a serious system for my needs

HI LJ
Of course I also understand your point of view, one must also consider what capacity they actually have for making the camera - If they can only make 1000 a year, there isn't much point in trying to sell 5000.

I also understand that there are a lot of people in your position who are actively disappointed with the price. I KNEW I wasn't going to buy one, not because I don't want one (I do), or even because I can't afford it (which I shouldn't), but because it wouldn't really suit what I shoot. So, of course, disappointment isn't part of the equation for me, and I wasn't spending my time dreaming of it being affordable.

But the streets of our towns are full of cars which cost twice as much as your two body system - when a decent BMW 5 series would be just as comfortable/fast/roomy etc.

 

[fotografz]

Jono,
I agree that they will sell....maybe not to the market they claimed to have targeted so much, but the others you mention will buy. That will not a success make, in my opinion. If they are fortunate to sell a body and lens, maybe two lenses, to that group, it is done. On the other hand, were they to sell the bodies nearer cost, they could get more into the market, and make up ground on the lenses. There is no other option for lenses to work on the S2, so a buyer is locked in. If the body were more affordable to those that may actually use it, there would still be good lens sales for them. The lens prices are not too far beyond what folks sort of expect from Leica, and if they deliver, as expected, there will be folks wanting those optics.

I understand your point about selling for margin, but I think that should be applied more to the lenses, and not the body at this point, but that is just my thinking on this. Fair to say, more disappointment on my part, as I was seriously thinking about the S2 to become a serious system for my needs, but at nearly $75K to get in (couple of bodies plus the glass), it is too much for me. If the price were closer to $45-50k for the same two bodies and all the glass, it would be a much more realistic consideration in my mind. Leica could still charge full fare for the glass, as it may really be worth it, but the bodies are most likely going to be used and replaced more often, so they need to be more affordable. Again, just my thinking on this. I understand your perspective, but remain disheartened by Leica's chosen scheme. It more or less worked for the M8, but there was a huge installed lens base and alternatives to help fuel the drive for the body. That is not the case with the S2.

LJ

My thinking exactly.

 

[Hank Graber]

I guess they did the math and figured they had enough Sultans, Princes and potentates to sell 1,000 units. In this economic environment taking a $50,000 flyer on a new system does not make business sense for anyone. I'm not sure at this point the market needs another MF system unless it was a 'game changer' which in a recession like this probably the only game changer that would count would be it costs as much as a Canon.

The M digital still occupies a unique market segment and probably will continue to for the near future at least but it seems every-time Leica ventures into the SLR market they get their head handed to them.

 

[Mike M]

I may be the odd man out here, but for a little company to engineer the development and tool up for an annual production run of only 1000 units, with manufacturing in Europe, these prices look amazing to me. If the average buyer spends $50k on their S2 kit, that's $50M in revenue; a pittance in the grand scheme of things.

I agree 100% and admire Leica for attempting this project... It's kind of sad to read the comments in this forum (and others) trashing the system already...