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Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

robmac

Well-known member
The Catch 22 aspect of this fiasco is that the more people (rightfully) who think that Solms has really spiked the Kool Aid on this one, the more folks (rightfully) will think they've loaded the shotgun and simply trying to figure out how to get their big toe inside the trigger guard.

This leads to more folks, beyond the "but it's a Leica.." & collector crowd hesitating or delaying buying one. "...if they're around next year, if prices come down (LOL) and S&S measures up, if I win the lottery, if, if, if...." Not many will want to take a winger on a $50K+ potentially orphan system, regardless of how sweet looking - especially given if you know/think/believe the risk is high going in.

This of course leads to an early peak to the unit-sales chart after the initial 1st year 1000 'friends & family' volume, and around and around it goes.
 

charlesphoto

New member
I think what is going to kill them on this is, to recap:

Getting dealers on board. Most dealers of this already have Phamiya and Hassie to try and sell in an uphill battle against D3X and Canon.

Lack of used, legacy, and after market lenses. The M8 (and M9) price, though high, was easily justified by many users due to already being heavily invested in M glass. Same for D3 users. An R10 would have been the same - they really missed the boat on that one.

Lack of rental gear. This is a biggie, esp for the mysterious "superstar" shooters that will supposedly rescue this thing. When one is shooting high end commercial jobs it's much easier to charge off the price of rental gear, therefore lots of high end shooter don't actually own that much gear.

The service pricing thing. Shouldn't one buying a $20K plus camera already be guaranteed that? Esp as it's a new system. Really, the camera and lenses should be so fricking airtight that servicing is never really a necessity. Too many horror stories out the about the M8. I should know - I lived some of them yet still love the camera though when i show up for a money gig it's with the D3 in hand.

Sorry thing is, just think if they had thrown all of that R&D investment into the M and for some serious non-rebranded compacts. And getting their **** together in the service dept. (like automated tracking!!!?? - buy NJ a couple of computers already!).

Sad..... though if I did win the lottery tomorrow... oh, that's right, I don't gamble.
 

kinok1

Member
My sentiments are with Charles - exactly.

I love the M8.

But when i was on a shoot on location, a million miles from civilization, a mere 6 months after buying it new, and the shutter failed, i was sure glad that D3 was in the bag.

Leica missed the boat on this one. And I'm very sad to see that. Charles is right on - they should have come out with a killer R10 and rock solid M9.

Damn.
 
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David A

Guest
Ummmm wow.... the ultimate closed system, so expensive most real photographers won’t contemplate it. Some systems could be termed as closed through hardware or software but closed because of bank balance???

The body price we all thought would be high, but not this high. But the real shock is the price of the lenses, they are just mind blowing.

I’m not a Pro in any way shape or form, I class myself as an enthusiastic amateur I enjoy photography I use medium format (Bronica ETRSi) because of the way it slows you down and makes you think about what you are shooting, not bringing the camera to your face and machine gunning and just hope you might have something. Would I like to go digital medium format? Yes. Can I afford it? No. So why am I here this is mainly a digital forum? Because I’ve learned so much, the work you guys produce is amazing and you don’t hold back on giving advice or help.

I’ve watched the almost excitement of the Leica S2 grow here then Bang!!! Price!!!

I’m just an amateur and I can see that the pricing strategy is a few slices short of a picnic. I can see that in this economic situation no Pro will consider investing the amount of money they would have to invest to make a basic system up. Medium Format Pros would look at it and think what I have at the moment works for me, where would the incentive be for me to get one? 35mm Pros would look at it and think how much!! What’s the second hand market like on Phase or Hasselblad at least I know they work.

As an amateur I can see this camera as rich peoples newest bling, all they would probably sell at a time is one camera with one lens, that’s it. If they drop the price of the lenses drastically then maybe a few would be tempted to get more than one lens, bring the price of the body down as well then more photographers might be tempted. But I’m just an amateur so what would I know :).

David
 

Chris C

Member
....Sorry thing is, just think if they had thrown all of that R&D investment into the M.......
Which would have strengthened the company, and revitalised a line carrying tired, half-century old designs. I have always believed that there were more urgent needs than the development of the S2, but these rarified prices worry me that a different sort of cost will be paid; by the digital M line. It's important for digital M users that the S2 does not fail, but pricing a camera outside of the reach of photographers does seem a pretty dumb idea for a camera company needing all the good will it can grab.

........... Chris
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yes, a M9 please ... and NOT a $13,000. one either. And NOT one where you need 2 of them to be sure you have a working M digital ... especially @ $13,000.

The way I made sure my M8 wouldn't fail was to get two of them ... then nothing happens to either of them ... :ROTFL:
 

John Black

Active member
We need hope and pray every day that the S2 is a roaring success, else Leica will use the M9 to offset for S2 losses. I hope those 1000 people are lined up and putting down deposits on their S2's as we type. If the Leica goes kaput due to S2, well, let that happen AFTER they produce (and ship) the M9!!!

I don't understand why Leica management opted to delay the M9. There were M8 owners lined up for the M9, but instead we got the M8.2. Once the M8.2 was announced, some M8 owners exited the system. Then Leica said the S2 was a priority over all else. More M8 owners moved onto other systems. The new M lenses are insanely expensive (the new Nocti & 24 Lux). And the Safari and White editions of the M8.2?!?! And R owners have far more to bitch about than M owners... The long Leica waits, the smaller the M9 market gets. And these crazy prices are alienating their customers.

Leica's weekly staff meetings should have been short and sweet because of only one topic on the agenda - "how's the M9 progressing." And had Leica not gone done the S2 path, they probably could have picked up F&H for pennies and produced the HY6 and used that system to leverage into the medium format business. Had Leica stuck to their core business... Sigh...
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
When have cameras ever cost more than cars? Have we gone insane? The original retail for the M3 was 250 dollars, which was about 1900 USD when adjusted for inflation. And the S2 is 22,000? What happened here? I know that people consider the S2 expensive, even compared to the other medium format digital solutions, but who decided that digital cameras were worth over 10,000 USD when the most expensive film camera before that was well below 10,000? (the Hasselblad 200 series maxed out at 7000 in the 90s, which was absurd...even the Leicas were in the 1000-2000 range at the time).
 
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Shelby Lewis

Guest
I truly believe that the saddest thing about the s2 is that the absurd pricing will obliterate any chance of a future used market...especially the lenses. I know people that have spent big $$$ on backs because the used market offered great glass and accesories at reachable prices. I'd venture to say that most folks have gotten into mf at least partially via the used market. The obsurd leica pricing almost completely destroys the chance of a future used market for the s system... Either due to the lack of cameras in the public's hands or due to no one wanting to take a hit on an already overpriced system.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
Charles, Marc and John....

Yes, yes....I'm all for you folks who want the new M9, but come on now, fair is fair.....at least you've had one crack at digital Leica rangefinder. Pity the poor R-series folks. Don't you think they deserve a little love from Leica too? :cry: I'll bet many of them would have paid $8k for that long awaited R10 (24 megapixels please). Then Canon and Nikon would have had some serious competition. :thumbs:

Gary
 

fotografz

Well-known member
When have cameras ever cost more than cars? Have we gone insane? The original retail for the M3 was 250 dollars, which was about 1900 USD when adjusted for inflation. And the S2 is 22,000? What happened here? I know that people consider the S2 expensive, even compared to the other medium format digital solutions, but who decided that digital cameras were worth over 10,000 USD when the most expensive film camera before that was well below 10,000? (the Hasselblad 200 series maxed out at 7000 in the 90s, which was absurd...even the Leicas were in the 1000-2000 range at the time).
Indeed! The other aspect is that an old Leica still works, and is just as good as it was 50 years ago. You worked your way up to lifetime purchases ... with a Leica M, Nikon F and a Hassey (or pick your variation) and used them until you retired.

Now you buy a digital system that is obsolete in a year. Not really obsolete, but is sure is made to seem that way. 25K camera that now sells new for 15K a year later... making your 25K camera worth what on the used market?

You REALLY have to make sure that what you buy is something you are prepared to stick with for a long time ... which is in itself a gamble given that companies are going belly up all over the place.

Times change. Hard times change even more.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Charles, Marc and John....

Yes, yes....I'm all for you folks who want the new M9, but come on now, fair is fair.....at least you've had one crack at digital Leica rangefinder. Pity the poor R-series folks. Don't you think they deserve a little love from Leica too? :cry: I'll bet many of them would have paid $8k for that long awaited R10 (24 megapixels please). Then Canon and Nikon would have had some serious competition. :thumbs:

Gary
I think you are on the money there ... and I wouldn't have blinked twice if the price had been just shy of 10K since Canon and Nikon Pro units were priced at 8K @ launch.

But the M is Leica's life line, and people keep buying the higher performance lenses ... which are anything but economical ... because they deliver second to none.

Personally, I don't need or want some 25 meg FF M9 ... FF, yes, but 16 meg and much better low light ability without pixel shmeer would get my vote. :thumbs:
 

cmb_

Subscriber & Workshop Member
An R10 would have gotten my vote AND my money! And yes, probably even at 10K for the reasons Marc points out.
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member
If I had a mainly optical company I would want to develop a camera that made me sell a lot of lenses instead of just very few lenses ... :confused:
 

etrump

Well-known member
Wow, this is the first I have seen of this pricing. I've been out climbing too many rocks I guess. It will be interesting to see if this pans out for them. I hope the quality is good enough to carve them out a space in the market.

I expected them to fall between high-end DSLR and MF where there seems to be more room in the market.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
If I had a mainly optical company I would want to develop a camera that made me sell a lot of lenses instead of just very few lenses ... :confused:
I'd guess that you would not need to sell a lot ... if each one cost that much.

That is another reason the R 10 made sense ... pent up demand for AF Leica optics. Look at how successful Sony has been with a Prosumer level, high meg camera because of the AF Zeiss lenses available for it. Granted, the A900 is only 3K, but the Zeiss ZA lenses aren't exactly inexpensive considering that none of them are APO designs.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
The biggest problem with this camera isn't the price, but the marketing. On their website, Leica states: "In a class by itself", followed up by studio shots on the S2 page that could just as well have been taken with any MF camera. Result: photographers on this and other forums discuss the price of the S2 compared to Hasselblad and Phamiya, a comparison the Leica is doomed to lose.

If Leica had shown photos of the camera in use by some super tough NG photographer hanging from Mount Everest by one hand in the rain, taking photos with the S2 with the other, we would have seen some very different discussions. It is a unique camera, but it's hardly mentioned in any discussion I've seen so far.

Leica's marketing and PR department (do they have one?) has a lot to learn. They'd better start before it's too late. For starters, they should have a look in the Nikon F6 brochure. That's the kind of stuff they need to show to build confidence behind what is supposed to be an all-weather camera. Not some dinky studio shots.

Some photographers, like me, wouldn't even consider a traditional MF camera, so comparing the price with those is rather uninteresting. The question for me is if I can afford it or not. At the moment, I can't, but if I could, I would buy it in an instant if it works as claimed.
 
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Louvre

Guest
These reactions from mostly people in the US are understandable allthough somewhat unjustified.
Leica will have a problem selling the S2 in the US as long as the exchange rate is 1.4 USD for 1 euro. That is a fact nobody will deny.
That exchange rate at the moment is unhealthy and should be more like 1 USD for 1 euro.

The discussion that Leica will offer the camera for the same amount of dollars as it will offer the camera for in euro's is over with these prices.
At least for the time the exchange rate is out of balance.

Take 30% of the US prices and you will have the price we pay in Europe in the euro area.
That gives quite a different perspective.

Another thing nobody pointed at: It is easier to cut prices than to increase prices.
If sales are less than expected a price cut may well be possible.

In absolute terms the S2 is not priced out of reach for most Europeans be it pro's or amateurs.

@ Stuart Richardson,
Although I fail to see what the price of a car has to with a digital camera a decent VW or a Mercedes C class costs about the same as an S2 kit in Europe.

As for the future of Leica depending on the faith of the S2:
Leica is owned by a powerful German entrepreneur who can in fact afford the whole S2 adventure to be written off against taxes.
Nobody with a sense for sound business starts the development of a new product to loose money.
In this case it is highly unlikely an unsuccesfull S2 will take Leica down.
 
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