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Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

jonoslack

Active member
Jono, you may well be correct... only time will tell. Anybody remember that special edition Noctilux they brought out recently at $16k plus... it sold. Compared to that these lenses are a bargain :) On the other hand, conspicuous consumption is no longer considered cool. I read an article recently that net-a-porter, which sells very high end fashion items, now gives it's customers the option of having their goods delivered in brown paper wrapping. Think for a moment of the reception an S2 buyer would get on this forum. My guess is that he/she would more likely be ridiculed than envied... and not all of that would be sour grapes. The consensus seems to be that you'd have to have no regard for money to buy this system. Not an image many are looking to project these days.
Hi David
there is a pretty clear difference between conspicous consumption and prestige. I don't think that anyone who has the financial clout to spend 50 grand on a camera system is going to give a damn about what people on a forum think (do you?).

As for the prices of the lenses. To my bitter regret I've sold a couple of Leica lenses over the last couple of years at sensible prices: I want them back now, and they've both increased in secondhand value by around 40%, who else can you say that about?

I have a small business (very small). When I look at the capitL expenditure we've made over the past year on stuff which is going to be worth nothing in two years.......

"value for money" simply isn't a factor with some products. Leica has always been like that.

You speak of the Noctilux. There was also the Safari and the white l
M8s. Both greeted with hoots of derision here, but I don't see anyone offering them cheap. Do you?

Apologies for typos. iPhone in car!
 

LJL

New member
O.K., had another espresso (or two). Maybe I and others are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe Jono is on target. Maybe Leica just wants to claim some sort of bragging rights over superior pricing or something. But why build and tout a camera that offers capabilities far beyond what only wealthy collectors or such will ever use, if they even use it at all? What is really to be gained for the Leica brand if their new system never gets used and talked about or its results displayed in stunning ads and stuff? What is the point? At least really expensive jewelry can be worn, or really expensive cars can be driven around town to impress, but a highly professionally oriented camera that the rich owners probably are clueless over its capabilities and use? (Not saying that these rich buyers are all dumb or something, so to be a bit more politically correct, just think about how many of those Bentleys and Ferraris that Jono mentions being put through the paces regularly on any road or track. What is the point of that much wasted potential besides bragging?)

So, maybe that is the real Leica strategy.....build and try to sell something only to those with more money than can use the capabilities and thereby enhance the brand. At least Ferrari has some some serious racing heritage in Formula One that they defend, and Bentley does exploit its exquisiteness and performance among the wealthy, or Rolex and others actually being used by folks daily. But a Leica S2 being the tote-along P&S toy of Paris Hilton? Or showing up at the polo club to snap a few shots for the scrapbook? Seriously? Just not seeing that. Who is Leica really making this camera for and trying to sell it to? (sorry for the dangling prepositions....too many espressos)

LJ
 

Terry

New member
Is everyone looking at this in a very insular way. If you are a big name photographer and are shooting something like a vogue layout or the sports illustrated swimsuit edition do you mean to tell me the costs of owning/renting the S2 system can't be buried into your pricing? I know there are a lot of working pros on this forum but isn't there a group of fashion oriented photographers where this pricing isn't an issue?
 

jonoslack

Active member
LJ
you can't sell it to the well heeled unless you can convince them that it's the best. Or at least allow them to convince themselves.

Just as there are some good drivers who can afford Ferraris, so there are some good photographers who will be able to afford S2s (lots more I would think).

Leica has always been like this: I assumed the M finish was indestructable because all the secondhand ones in dealers (and most of those offered for sale on this forum) are pristine. I now know better: my two year old black m8 hasn't got a scratch on it. It hasn't got much paint on it either :)

Yes. And then there is the group Terry talks about.

photography is full of fantastic photographs taken by well heeled amateurs. (by the way, in case it looks like it I am not for a second claiming to be a member of that club. .... Just the amateur club that does actually use it's Leica!)
 

LJL

New member
Terry,
You may be correct. However, the number of those big shoots has dropped a lot in this economy, and the costs being paid as well. So some may still be able to garner the premium on the shoot, but do you think they will risk it with a new, unproven system that still does not even have all the glass and other pieces ready? Not for some time, I would bet. So owning or renting (still unknown where anybody will go for that part), may become possible, but not for while. Now, if one could do it with the 70mm or whatever is available out of the gate, great, but most of those folks probably already have and use Hasselblads, so where is their incentive when they absolutely must deliver? Also, check how many of these shoots are also now being done with Canons and Nikons. That may be more of a trend for some time to come, at least for the magazine sized spreads. For the big in-store prints and billboards.....existing MF or Genuine Fractals will probably continue to cover the needs at present and near future spending levels. Just my thoughts here.

LJ
 

David K

Workshop Member
isn't there a group of fashion oriented photographers where this pricing isn't an issue?
Terry, even if the pricing isn't an issue for that select group there are other negatives that will militate against buying into this system... availability in rental shops is the first one that comes to mind. FWIW, the comments over on LL, which include some of those guys seem to be pretty much consistent with what we're reading here. I was speaking to a pro photographer friend of mine who shoots Hassy MF and his current experience is that with the downturn in advertising much of what he's doing is intended for the web, and he's shooting Nikon for that stuff. All in all, not auspicious for the success of this platform with that group.
 
To those who offer that this thread is just a lot of unfair Leica bashing, I suggest that this thread is the very debate Leica should have had before putting the S2 into production. That they "might have" and still continued with the S2, knowing the difficulties of launching a new closed system (with no existing lenses), well established competition that is available in rental departments nationwide and knowing the direction the world economies were headed (and please don't say this took us all by complete surprise as the writing has been on the walls for years) indicates, as Guy stated earlier, a rather supreme arrogance.

Some of the anger (and disappointment) is coming from those R users who feel supremely disappointed. The DMR, good as it was and still is, was at best a stopgap effort that was designed to buy Leica some time to design a proper digital 35mm camera. What have they been doing for these past 10 years? Did they not see that film was losing market share to digital at increasing rates each year?

Why did they design ROM contacts, if not for autofocus (or at minimum focus confirmation)? Given what Contax was able to do with manual focus lenses and a moving film plane on the NX: couldn't Leica have licensed this technology and improved upon it rather than design an entire new line of costly autofocus lenses? After all... Leica invented autofocus.

Many Leica SLR users don't require super fast auto focus. They don't require 5-10 frames per second image capture either. I think that for those who do need some help with focusing - focus confirmation, at minimum, might have kept many in the fold, especially if Leica had released a purely digital slr with outstanding IQ.

The fact that there are thousands of existing R lenses would have given many R users reason to buy an R10, even given the premium Leica would have had to charge over Nikon and Canon. What matters most to Leica users is the IQ their lenses provide (made possible by good sensors, of course). An up-to-date R10 with stellar IQ, focus confirmation and a SSS equivalent would have captured my vote. (That Sony incorporated SSS into their A900 proves that it is possible and that it works. Could Leica have licensed this technology for use in an R10 if not develop their own version?)

This is all second guessing from one who feels deceived and conned by what I feel is a very misguided policy by Leica. Reminiscing on what might have been and shaking my head at what is. Bummer!
Lawrence
 

LJL

New member
you can't sell it to the well heeled unless you can convince them that it's the best. Or at least allow them to convince themselves.

photography is full of fantastic photographs taken by well heeled amateurs. (by the way, in case it looks like it I am not for a second claiming to be a member of that club. .... Just the amateur club that does actually use it's Leica!)
Jono,
I agree. My point being that Leica has yet to prove its new system is the best and worth that cost. I still have some faith that it will be able to deliver, but if very few actually buy it, use it and display the results, will that convincing process not take a lot longer?

My M8 is still a favourite camera of mine, and it does turn out some very decent stuff for me, despite the history with it. I just have not found it able to be put into full-time production that I can count on without having my Canons in the bag "just in case". I held off buying a second body or so as back-up, since the price was daunting and I still had to keep another system to deliver things the M8 could not. The S2 is shaping itself into much the same mold with regard to needing another system for other capabilities for me, and probably a lot of other potential shooters. That is one of the reasons I have not jumped back into MF on the digital side, as I still need to support my Canon system where MF cannot deliver. The S2 might have been able to change that game for me up to a point, but it is not even close to being ready there yet, nor is it proven, nor are the prices in line with being able to test the waters, as there is no secondary market with used glass or bodies that I could experiment with. At least the M8 had a huge secondary market in glass that was affordable. This is a different game and market right now.

LJ
 

monza

Active member
Is everyone looking at this in a very insular way. If you are a big name photographer and are shooting something like a vogue layout or the sports illustrated swimsuit edition do you mean to tell me the costs of owning/renting the S2 system can't be buried into your pricing? I know there are a lot of working pros on this forum but isn't there a group of fashion oriented photographers where this pricing isn't an issue?
Apparently Leica thinks there are about 1000 of them a year. I hope they are right.

Bear in mind, this is an extremely small number compared to the big guns...I still maintain this is an amazing price for what is essentially a limited edition product. The engineering and tooling expense for all the pieces is expensive, we are talking the best manufacturing available, in high-cost Germany, in small numbers...it makes for an expensive product.

And we've just seen the pricing so far...I'd like to see how well it performs.
 

Terry

New member
Apparently Leica thinks there are about 1000 of them a year. I hope they are right.

Bear in mind, this is an extremely small number compared to the big guns...I still maintain this is an amazing price for what is essentially a limited edition product. The engineering and tooling expense for all the pieces is expensive, we are talking the best manufacturing available, in high-cost Germany, in small numbers...it makes for an expensive product.

And we've just seen the pricing so far...I'd like to see how well it performs.
But at the same time Leica said the R&D used to do Maestro the fiware was going to be shared with the R (whatever form it comes in) and future M cameras. So, there could be a bit of scale here.
 

beamon

New member
I have no doubt that the S2 and its lenses will be top notch, but, as the Pennsylvania Dutchman would say, "It wonders me" why they decided to pursue the nearly MF market to begin with. It seems counter to their history and their acknowledged strengths.

IMNSHO, they would have been far better advised to offer an R10 digital followed by the FF M9. More money would be flowing into their coffers over a shorter time frame and could, in this tough market, help Leica survive.

Time will tell, all else is speculation.
 

LJL

New member
But at the same time Leica said the R&D used to do Maestro the fiware was going to be shared with the R (whatever form it comes in) and future M cameras. So, there could be a bit of scale here.
O.K., but they also have said that there is no R10 anymore, and that any DSLR they may decide to pursue will be new and different. And they also say that an M9 is a ways off and that they will not be upgrading the M8/8.2 line anymore. So where are these "shared" development costs going to be laid off or shared? Seems like they are passing the full boat directly onto the S2 on some very short amortization schedule, meaning S2 buyers are footing the bill right now. Some may think that O.K., but again, it is total market BS spin from Leica and contrary to what they had planned and shared with folks for some time. Sorry, but this smells bad, feels bad, looks bad....

LJ
 
D

David A

Guest
"Fashion photographer Robert Grischek tests the prototype of the S2"

Not even the version that will be shipping but a prototype.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
<big snip> The fact that there are thousands of existing R lenses would have given many R users reason to buy an R10, even given the premium Leica would have had to charge over Nikon and Canon. <snip> Lawrence
I'll second everything Lawrence said.....as a relative new comer to the Leica R world with just a handful of manual focus R lenses.....I would have nonetheless pulled together every possible dollar to buy an R10 (assuming the IQ itself was every bit as good...and then some...as the offerings from Canon and Nikon).

Gary
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Has it been successful?
I know it's much liked around here (I love mine). But I see no signs of it being a success, my dealer hasn't sold many, my other dealer stopped selling them altogether. Added to which I've never seen one in the 'wild' and I don't know anybody outside these forums who actually owns one.
Actually, that's a good question. I was thinking more in terms of owner satisfaction than sales numbers ... which I assumed would be nitch like the Leica R would be. The lenses seem to sell out pretty fast at B&H, but maybe it's not as many as one would suppose.
 

pcunite

New member
20K does not buy a camera with LiveView focus? This camera would live on a tripod if I bought it. No I don't want to bring an LCD panel with me... the whole idea of this system is "easier to use than MF" right? Wake me up twenty years from now and let's see what manufactures can make.
 

Hank Graber

New member
I'm not outraged at the pricing. I'm sure it's what they needed to charge for what is for sure a wonderful system. The problem is I don't think anyone will buy it at least not in the pro MF market. That bothers me because now they have put the company at risk. I want them around to keep developing the M and in the hope that who knows they might even develop the small digital reportage camera of the future.

The SLR market seems to be like a tar pit for them historically.
 

tom in mpls

Active member
I'm picking up on an interesting current that is running, without comment, underneath the discussion of the price. That is, how "good" does a camera system need to be? I see comments from professionals that they are not even using their current equipment at it's maximum capabilities. Is there a point beyond which "better" has no real meaning except when pixel peeping? Is there a need for "better" for fashion photography? Commercial, including billboard, photography? Sports? Landscape? If you can't see a difference in the format the photo will be presented in, then who cares?

I'm willing to be educated that "better" is always "better", but I have been impressed by some comments that lead me to believe this may not be so.

By the way, I dabbled a bit with Contax MFDB for a while. Took some spectacular pics (luck more than skill), very impressed with what it can do, but for me the awkwardness of the system (how many different batteries do you need?) was a problem, and in the end for this amateur it was too much money to sink into the system. The S2 sounds way cool, but obviously the price is an enormous barrier. However, my question is not about persons of my skill level; it is directed to photo professionals and highly skilled amateurs.
 
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John Black

Active member
As for the prices of the lenses. To my bitter regret I've sold a couple of Leica lenses over the last couple of years at sensible prices: I want them back now, and they've both increased in secondhand value by around 40%, who else can you say that about?
Canon... In 2005/2006 we're buying 135L's for $769'ish after rebate; today $999. The lowly 50/1.4 that was $250'ish after rebate is now $399! $399!!! Can you believe that?!?! 85L's have gone from $1399 to $1769 after the current rebate. The 70-200/2.8 IS is $1699 --AFTER-- the current $200 rebate. We were picking this up for $1399 and $1449 2-3 years ago... Very frustrating. All these companies are jacking up the prices and the used market follows proportionately.
 
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