Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[jonoslack]

David
Thanks for chipping in with your long post. I'm still confused as to why people didn't realise what the price was going to be - it really was obvious, both from your posts and from information from Leica.

I can understand people not wanting to pay for it (I'm not going to for sure). But I can't understand all the indignant outrage - It's only a camera after all - you don't like the price . . . you walk away. Leica's future depends on individuals seeing a benefit, and the benefits seem obvious to me (even if a P65 does give you a 'better file').

 

[carstenw]

Jono, as far as I can figure out, the actual customers and the outraged people are non-overlapping sets, which I find really weird. Why get all outraged about something which you aren't buying? It is like the storm in a teacup over the Nikon D3x price. Canon has had the same price for years and years for their pro FF body, but when Nikon does it, all hell breaks loose. To be honest, I can't be bothered arguing this any more.

The price is almost exactly what it was going to be all along. I am sorry that the American financial system has screwed up the price for Americans, but that really isn't Leica's responsibility.

 

[PeterA]

I think a lot of people would like to buy a Leica - because anyone who has ever shot with Leica lenses - loves them. However perhaps many were hoping for a lower than Hasselblad and Phase entry price - hence some disappointment.

Personally, I think the price is fair enough for chipped body and even lenses - what I need to be convinced of is whether the S2 actually works or not. If it delivers M8/DMR type IQ @ 40 megapixels - and the lenses have fast and accurate autofocus, and users report no hassles in the first six months - I am a buyer.

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

:clap::clap:
It always makes me laugh when you see someone struggling with a tripod outside with the wind blowing the vegetation around

And if the S2 shutter really does have that much less slap . . . and if the ISO 800 really is okay . . . .

Of course, it still all boils down to whether it delivers or not.

Chaps,

As the resolution goes up, so the affect of shutter slap / camera movement becomes more apparent. and some shots you just can't take unless you have a tripod, so I'll continue (occasionally...) to lug a tripod around. Anyway it makes my quack, who tells me I have to lose 3 stone and get my blood pressure down , happy because its exercise :angel:

Quentin

 

[jonoslack]

Chaps,

As the resolution goes up, so the affect of shutter slap / camera movement becomes more apparent. and some shots you just can't take unless you have a tripod,

Quentin

Of course, of course - but that's different from needing one for 100%, and the affect of shutter slap / camera movement I agree with too, but if you have less of it (as the S2 claims) then that will be an improvement.

 

[ptomsu]

At this prices the S System is already dead for me before even trying. And not discussing any of the issues with fixed sensor, less flexibility and absolutely not replacing a Tech cam for landscape photography.

I went through all the hassles you can get at Leica with my M system (M8) and I will never ever repeat this experience

And there is no SW available like C1Pro or Phocus for this system. How many years will it take before this is going to be shipped?

A number of questionmarks, high prices, a closed system and bad reputation in digital over the last years - for me this is NOT a winner.

 

[stephengilbert]

Jono,

You're starting to look like a badminton player: whatever shots come in at the S2, you hit them right back. I guess all those posts about tripods and heads and mirror slap were just chin wagging. Is there anything at all that disappoints you about the S2?

I agree that if it is easier to use than any camera yet made, and produces better files than have ever been seen, and works without ever failing, etc., that people will buy it, but gee, aren't there a few unknowns right now?

Steve

 

[Guy Mancuso]

There is no outrage but a lot of head scratching and it leaves a whole sector of folks that had interest out in the cold. It really is very simple it over shot the mark compared to the competition and what you can get for the same money. After doing the math 58k for a 4 lens system can buy me a whole lot of Phase /Hassy ,Tech camera and spare change left over for a Nikon. Really comes down to a Phase P40+ with 4 lenses about 34k , a Tech camera and 3 lenses about 12k and approx. 12k left over for a Nikon setup. That's a whole lot of gear for 58k. Believe me it will not be any better than a P40+ sensor any day of the week. All Phase really needs is a new body with some of those same features like a larger LCD and some speed. I was or am in line to test a S2 but I am sure Leica feels I think the money is too high and folks all I can say is it is. It simply is overpriced , not outrage , no sour grapes and if it was 24k with a 70mm already attached to it than it maybe in my hands but Leica slammed the door in the face of anyone that wants to switch and let's not even begin to talk of the loss of selling my used system. Many folks are switching back to Nikons and when you look at that price difference for a Nikon system fully loaded for 15k compared to 58k half cocked and almost 4 times the money than you soon realize how worldly the difference truly it is not. These system will never make it into rental houses either, they will not shell out the money for them when there hurting as well and they are already fully loaded with Hassy and Phase stuff. If this came in slightly below the Hassy and Phase One systems it would have cleaned the clock and most likely would have the highest market share in no time. I'm dead serious if this had a entry level price below the competition it would have stole the market. Leica screwed themselves here in a big way they did not even realize they could.

Bottom line is they lost the middle class and the biggest percentage of the marketing pie.

 

[thomas]

Believe me it will not be any better than a P40+ sensor any day of the week.

I think it will be 1 stop better in ISO due to the microlenses.

All Phase really needs is a new body with some of those same features like a larger LCD and some speed.

I think Phase needs something more. LCD, yes, of course. In camera processing. Microadjustment for AF lenses. Leaf shutter lenses. Waist level finder ...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think it will be 1 stop better in ISO due to the microlenses.

I think Phase needs something more. LCD, yes, of course. In camera processing. Microadjustment for AF lenses. Leaf shutter lenses. Waist level finder ...

Tough call Thomas the P40+ with sensor plus did look better than my P30+ at the real high ISO but that was with binning. I would say not better and without C1 and it's binning algorithm I think I would be betting on the P40+ myself. Regardless the S2 has some nice features no question and something we would like to see in the Hassy and Phase bodies. That is not my argument at all. The camera will perform no question.

 

[thomas]

without C1...

agree here. High ISO and Lightroom ... isn't exactly the best combo (either way which camera).
But DNG and C1 at high ISO isn't either (C1 works much better with supported RAW files IMHO). The lack of a dedicated software might turn out to be a serious problem. Maybe not, but could be...
I wonder how well the TS lens will work with the offset microlenses and what they'll offer to correct lens/sensor cast...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

agree here. High ISO and Lightroom ... isn't exactly the best combo (either way which camera).
But DNG and C1 at high ISO isn't either (C1 works much better with supported RAW files IMHO). The lack of a dedicated software might turn out to be a serious problem. Maybe not, but could be...
I wonder how well the TS lens will work with the offset microlenses and what they offer to correct lens/sensor cast...

Exactly and they are under estimating tethered operation as well. Hot folders suck in LR but more important almost all MF shooters use tethered when it presents itself. I use it about 30 to 40 percent of the time in overall shooting. That's a pretty big percentage for me and what I shoot. I would not be leaning on LR to make my day with a S2. Of course I am very biased towards C1 but for a darn good reason.


Let me qualify something right here and now. I am not bashing the S2 but simply stating my feeling of there pricing and the value of YOUR money. I get these questions a lot through PM"s , e-mails and all that . I am not going to hold anything back and i refuse to lie on anything. It is what it is and my brutal honesty get's me in a lot of trouble sometimes BUT I will never not tell folks what I think. I truly believe people respect me and hold a lot of faith in what I have to say. Let's face it I am no rookie on this stuff, if the S2 is what you want please don't let me stop you in anyway. Leica was never known to be cheap and looks like it never will but I am more sad they had a shot at killing the MF market and chose not to. In my mind they blew it here because the S2 is a interesting concept that fills a certain need but the pricing structure is something I totally don't agree with. Anyway carry on and do what is best for yourself.

 

[robertwright]

Let me throw another perspective on this: I think the days of the "journeyman" (or woman) photographer are over-what I have seen is a steady erosion of the middle, and what is left is entry level photogs who will work for experience and those at the high end. In that kind of market the S2 might survive in rental houses-I don't agree with Guy here, I think rental will pick this up at least in the major centers, NY, LA, SF, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami, from what I have seen in the past 10 years it has been a move towards higher and higher production costs riding the same old or eroding fees. Most of the money now in photography goes to the vendors-studios, rental, stylists, setbuilders, etc. So the S2 fits the bill for the high end along with the Briese HMI lighting, Profoto killer packs and Red video rigs. All of this stuff is way out of the reach of the sole proprietor photographer, the leasing, insurance, etc. Still is becoming more like movies, with commensurate budgets.

I don't like it but there it is.

And even at that, it may not be sustainable, look at AL, her financial woes, at least in part because of overhead and gear, vendors. In NY we have a lot of rep agencies also doing production-the trend is that they are becoming little mini movie studios themselves, pitching, realising and financing major ad campaigns.

The last major contraction was after 911-this industry consolidation will tighten it down even further. What is ironic is that we went from the classic 80's big budget individual studio shooter with gross margins, to a lean and mean editorial 90's photographer doing it on their own profitably, to the current bloated rep-agency model where you have a big stable of photographers all bidding at shrunken pie.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Jono, as far as I can figure out, the actual customers and the outraged people are non-overlapping sets, which I find really weird. (Snip...)

Carsten,

This isn't quite accurate. I've been quietly watching the S2 for my shooting. In some ways it would make a lot of sense for me (depending on results, of course). I've not posted to the other S2 threads because I felt it was just too early, and besides, lots was being posted already.

Anyway, for what I'm shooting lately an S2 might simplify my kit, but the price of a body (or two) and four lenses is such that I will stay with Phase (and Canon) for now. My current kit is made of two systems with 14 or 15 lenses, but my shooting could easily be handled with an S2 type of solution – when the lenses become available. I had considered the technical camera option (a reason to stay with a digital back) and the more I watch that process the less attracted I am to it.

To be honest, this economy is kicking my @ss, so the decision is made for different reasons, but my business changes rapidly and I'm the kind of person who buys stuff I want if I feel it meets my needs. The whole S2 package (kit availability, IQ, service, etc.) is yet undetermined and expect folks like David Farkas to deliver excellent service. All that being said, I won't even day-dream about the S2 kit at these prices because I feel the numbers don't "feel" right with regard to value. Value is determined individually, and as one who loves Leica quality, I feel that the pricing is a bit "elitist" in nature. Frankly, I'd be a bit embarrassed falling for this kit at this point, when comparing to a full-house Phase or Hassey kit.

Fun to watch and read about though.

 

[Jack]

I am surprised there is so much "emotion" over a product that essentially isn't even available yet.

*IF* the very first version S2 comes out and delivers exactly what was promised without anybody finding "surprises" (like purple blacks), delivers exceptionally clean ISO 800 and 1600 images AND more detail than any other MF digital back of comparable resolution, then yes, it will be a winner. At least for whomever can afford it -- and I dare say, most pros won't in the current market.

OTOH, if it is fraught with the same anomalies most all new cameras are plagued with, it will likely become a low-volume product pretty quickly. Leica will have to scramble fast to fix the issues -- and we know they will fix them, but it is the speed with which they accomplish that comes into question. If it follows the M8 path, it may be another year or so for the camera to be finally working as promised, and what else will come to market in that year?

I suspect there are not going to be very many early adopters of the S2 until it proves itself to be close to be "perfect," so Leica is going to have to hit it out of the park the first time at bat IMHO...

And then even if it is a grand slam, I personally would not be motivated to expend the cost of that particular system change to buy it --- and I suspect I am not alone...

 

[peterv]

If this came in slightly below the Hassy and Phase One systems it would have cleaned the clock and most likely would have the highest market share in no time. I'm dead serious if this had a entry level price below the competition it would have stole the market. Leica screwed themselves here in a big way they did not even realize they could.

Bottom line is they lost the middle class and the biggest percentage of the marketing pie.

I've read every thread concerning the S2 since last september, here and over at LUF and LL. With this remark Guy you hit the nail right on the head.

 

[monza]

Perhaps Leica doesn't care about market share? Not every company does.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I probably should have said the middle class blue collar shooter. But maybe your right Monza maybe they just don' t care about that.

 

[jonoslack]

I probably should have said the middle class blue collar shooter. But maybe your right Monza maybe they just don' t care about that.

HI Guy
I think you're exactly right - 'not care' is perhaps not the way I would have put it, but the principle is right.

They don't have the manufacturing capacity to produce enough cameras for the blue collar shooter.

They don't have the infrastructure to support the quantities they would have sold if they supported the blue collar shooter.

European employment and manufacturing costs meant that they CAN'T price it for the blue collar shooter.

For me there are two questions:

1. are there enough 'white collar' shooters to buy the cameras they CAN make
2. Is it good enough.

Truth be told, I'm sure that Jack has it, if it has problems like the M8, then they really will have problems, but if it comes out of the gates producing what it promises, then I'm sure there ARE enough 'white collar' shooters to make it a success.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I actually think technical it will be fine coming out of the gate. It still has all the backend stuff to solve which as we all agree will take time to get service, parts, acessories and all the back end stuff to come alive. They know no one is going to put up with the m8 stuff. The Dmr was actually better but that was mostly Imacon at the time. But my guess it should be okay, still not crazy about LR though and tethering but here iam bias towards C1 and no secret about that