Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[PeterA]

Chill Guy, I am not on your case @ all - I read the base price as 22 + 4-5K for a lens ..hence i reckon no real biggy for a camera with a lot more apparent ergonomic friendliness and processing speed, so to me the pricing was pretty much ok relative to others ...and I still think it is 0- as I dont give a rats about Platinum service no need for me ..

- also Phase One and Hasselblad prices are cheaper in the USA than the rip off artists charge down here..lets not talk about what I actually paid for my H3D-11 when I bought it hmm - that is another can of worms ! :ROTFL::ROTFL:

As for an M8 I dont know if you got one before I did I certainly bought one of the first five M8 's in Australia and the same for the DMR and that was before I had the pleasure of making your acquaintance my friend - so yeah I am a Leica nut - but that was then and this is now..not one of my film Leicas has ever broken down or had a hitch but I seem to have struck problems with the M8 recently following a service in Solms .. so yeah I am wary of the service capability of Leica at the moment..

after trying out the Hy6 - I love the Sinar back ( and I dont care how many people bag it) and I love the Schneider lenses - but I don't love the fact that the Hy6 is now a dead system ...

So I am wary of ever buying into anything from anyone until proven it works and the company is stable - this will take at least 6-12 months for Leica to prove to me..IF /WHEN they do I will seriously consider the camera because it replaces one or two of my MFD systems which are sitting on the shelf looking pretty. If they had included image stabilisation via lens or chip - as well as multi point point focus with decent 1200 ISO - they could have charged even as far as I am concerned..already (on paper) it will dust off Hasselblad and Phase systems ( we cant talk Sinar or leaf systems anymore) in a few areas I care about.

Cheers
Pete

 

[Jack]

given my recent 'experiences' with Solms service of my M8 - broke down day one after a two month turnaround - with another case of total system failure - I would have to say NO WAY JOSE

Hi Pete:

Yeah, that's what I figured so was teasing you a bit, and why the big grin on my post. When we spend that kind of money on anything, we definitely want it to be proven and 100% reliable. Unfortunately that means one thing: time in the field in OTHER people's hands, getting thrashed and hanging tough through all of that for some reasonable period of time. Which means fewer *seasoned* early adopters...

PS: US price I have heard was $34K for the camera plus normal lens, and then maybe/probably a $2K rebate for early adopters...

Cheers,

 

[jonoslack]

Hi Pete:

Yeah, that's what I figured so was teasing you a bit, and why the big grin on my post. When we spend that kind of money on anything, we definitely want it to be proven and 100% reliable. Unfortunately that means one thing: time in the field in OTHER people's hands, getting thrashed and hanging tough through all of that for some reasonable period of time. Which means fewer *seasoned* early adopters...

PS: US price I have heard was $34K for the camera plus normal lens, and then maybe/probably a $2K rebate for early adopters...

Cheers,

Hi Jack
The prices listed show $23K for the body and $4.5K for the lens - unless you want the sapphire glass+platinum service etc.
Surely in a thread like this it's really important that these figures are quoted correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong)

I certainly think that Leica have a real catch 22 here:

People won't buy until they know it's reliable
People won't know it's reliable until they buy.

But I'm not convinced it has much to do with the price. People are going to be leery about spending $20K on an unproved system just as much as spending $27K (or even $34K)

 

[fotografz]

Still think they should have offered the S2 camera at a break even price point including the best coverage possible during the launch phase ... and then make it up in lens sales ... of which there are no other alternatives. Captive enthusiasm so to speak.

Given that Leica pretty much rules optics and everything else is an also ran, the prices are no real surprise ... tough to swallow, but you do have a pretty good idea that the optics will be some of the best ever, if not the best ever for an SLR.

Perhaps they are selling the body at a break even price point ... but I doubt it.

Unfortunately, my need for a MFD camera system dropped off the same cliff the economy went over. Right now, with the work I have for the foreseeable future, I want/need/desire a FF, 16+ meg M9 much more than another MFD system.

The world turns and things change.

 

[Christopher]

I still love how people are defending an DSLR for 22k or better 27k with lens. The S2 is nothing more. It will be real interesting how the market goes, especially with Canon probably bringing something like a 28mp beginning of next year. Or RED bringing their system to the market.

We will see what actually happens I whish Leica well, because as many hear I would love to se a FF M9 some day.

 

[LJL]

Still think they should have offered the S2 camera at a break even price point including the best coverage possible during the launch phase ... and then make it up in lens sales ... of which there are no other alternatives. Captive enthusiasm so to speak.

That was the point I have been trying to make from the very start. Leica has a lot to prove on the body side of things. It needs to show it really works as they market. They need to prove that there is little or no need for a special service contract to fix something that is not supposed to break. They need to prove turnaround if something does break, and not make the early adopter have to pay for some Platinum service. Think about that.....at first, there will not be a lot of these out there, so how long can it possibly take trained, competent repair guys to turn it around should something go south. (Let's try not to think about the sensor debacle on the M8, and how long it too for Leica to figure things out and then figure a repair path. That was horrific, to say the least.)

All along I have been less apoplectic about the lenses for the most part, but the body price and service contract stuff is pure robbery the way I see it. The arguments have been that Leica is not able to produce volumes for delivery. Duh....should that have not been thought about first? If the plan all along has been very low volume, very high price, why not just call it a super special niche camera, rather than the tool to change the professional's world as they have been?

To me, as Marc points out also, the body, even with the new sensor and all the other great things they market, should be put into the market at cost or even a bit less if too high, just to get the damn thing out there. If it does what it claims, lens sales will rapidly follow. That is a pretty simple concept at this point. Obviously not one that many others agree with here, nor that Leica sees as even a reasonable approach. The argument about raising prices after the fact does not apply. You market it as a limited introductory price and period of offering. I would bet that they could clear the 1000 unit mark inside a month if they took that approach. But that would be something done by a company that is not afraid of success...Leica has a ways to go to take that approach, even in a niche market. Just my opinions.

LJ

 

[Jack]

I certainly think that Leica have a real catch 22 here:

People won't buy until they know it's reliable
People won't know it's reliable until they buy.

Jono:

This is truly the crux of the matter for Leica.

The best thing Leica could do is get this camera in the hands of real shooters, regardless of cost. As Marc said earlier in the thread, if that be rental houses, so be it. But IMO they should plan on having about 50 demo copies shipped for 60 day trials to working pros all over the world.

HOWEVER, the danger in that strategy is working pros will find faults, and I suspect Leica is not going to want any faults in the S2 discussed openly anywhere, regardless of venue. Leica really needs to implement a true Beta test scheme here. Get cameras -- and more than just 3 or 4 -- out to working pros, let them discover the faults and give Leica a chance to correct them, THEN deliver market-ready versions. Their history here with the early DMR and M8 is not doing them any good for this product...

 

[stephengilbert]

"[A]nd not make the early adopter have to pay for some Platinum service."

I.e., the Microsoft model: you pay top dollar to be a beta tester.

 

[thomas]

I still love how people are defending an DSLR for 22k or better 27k with lens. The S2 is nothing more.

Actually a P1 with DB or a Hassy with DB is nothing more as well. I have no idea how much of the MFD users consider to buy a tech camera or already have one so that they can take advantage of the modular system.
Too, it will be interessting if there will be an upgrade strategy offered by Leica (I have to admit I like the idea of upgrading just the DB instead of the entire camera). MFD offer upgarde paths (very different ones but still).
IMO these are the strongest points for a modular system. I hardly see other points... the contrary.

 

[Jack]

Exactly Stephen. But given the history with the M8, you'd be an idiot to pay for this camera and not pay for the platinum service plan.

 

[LJL]

Jack and Jono,
At this point, it is looking like that ship has sailed, WRT having enough time to shake things down before launch. Looks like yet another miscalculation in strategy, which does little to boost confidence more. Since Leica had working prototypes quite some time ago, you would think they would have put more effort into real user testing, rather than marketing demo purposes only.

Who knows, maybe the S2 will perform flawlessly from the start and all the in-house testing will have caught all the problems.....like the IR and other sensor issues on the M8 ;-)

LJ

 

[jonoslack]

Jono:

This is truly the crux of the matter for Leica.

The best thing Leica could do is get this camera in the hands of real shooters, regardless of cost. As Marc said earlier in the thread, if that be rental houses, so be it. But IMO they should plan on having about 50 demo copies shipped for 60 day trials to working pros all over the world.

HOWEVER, the danger in that strategy is working pros will find faults, and I suspect Leica is not going to want any faults in the S2 discussed openly anywhere, regardless of venue. Leica really needs to implement a true Beta test scheme here. Get cameras -- and more than just 3 or 4 -- out to working pros, let them discover the faults and give Leica a chance to correct them, THEN deliver market-ready versions. Their history here is not doing them any good for this product...

How can one argue with that - they could easily institute an NDA as a return for the compliment. I must say, I rather assumed that they'd done that? No?

I don't think that LJ and Marc's idea of the body as a loss leader runs though; - the problem is that you need to have much more manufacturing capability than I suspect they have, and also support for many cameras all at once. I imagine that they WANT it to sell slowly for the first month or so, so that they can handle anything that might need doing quickly.

Let's face it, most new cameras have issues (Leica isn't the only guilty party by any means) - if you've just sold 1000 cameras at a loss and you need to do a recall . . . . that's a 'go bust' type of situation.

 

[Jack]

Actually a P1 with DB or a Hassy with DB is nothing more as well. I have no idea how much of the MFD users consider to buy a tech camera or already have one so that they can take advantage of the modular system.

Thomas,

I'm going to side with Christopher here --- the big difference between the S2 and my P45+ is I can attach my P45+ to a tech camera or view camera -- and many of us do. I can even get the mount swapped to put it on another MF camera platform for a price. In this regard, the S2 is just an over-sized DSLR for $27K ~ $34K. But granted, it's also more, given added sensor size...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Bodies: (Oct 09)
S2 Camera Body - $22,995
S2-P Body with Sapphire LCD Cover Glass and Platinum Service Package - $27,995

Accessories:
Multi Function Handgrip S - $1,295 (Jan 10)
Battery Charger (spare/extra) - $399

Service Packages for Bodies:
S-Body Premium Service - $1,495
S-Body Platinum Service - $3,795

Lenses:
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH - $4,495 (Oct 09)
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Nov 09)
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 - $6,495 (Oct 09)
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS - $7,495 (Nov 09)
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $6,495 (Nov 09)
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $7,495 (Nov 09)
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH - $5,295 (Dec 09)
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Dec 09)

Service Packages for Lenses:
S-Lens Premium Service - $495
S-Lens Platium Service - $995


The cheapest entry point without warranty and Central shutter is 27500. I dare anyone to buy a Leica without a warranty attached to it. Not a great idea folks given there past record.

So 23000 k for the body and 1500 for premium warranty or really platinum which is like the value added 3 year Phase gives you is 3800. Than you simply have to buy the lens with CS in it at a whooping 6k . Plus warranty for that which is nuts on the lenses S-Lens Premium Service - $495
S-Lens Platium Service - $995

Pretty soon you see how it goes way over 30k for body and a normal lens.

And Jack reason why I will not get one to test . Leica already knows i find fault just in the pricing alone. And I have a big mouth. LOL

Like I said earlier they would have killed anyone standing with just below pricing of Phase or Hassy . Cleaned the clock but again all that is really missing in Hassy and Phase is abetter body and that can change in a NY heartbeat with some improved changes. The LCD would be the last one to change with the backs themselves but certainly can be done. These folks are just not sitting still watching this either. Rumors are already flying around

 

[jonoslack]

Jack and Jono,
At this point, it is looking like that ship has sailed, WRT having enough time to shake things down before launch. Looks like yet another miscalculation in strategy, which does little to boost confidence more. Since Leica had working prototypes quite some time ago, you would think they would have put more effort into real user testing, rather than marketing demo purposes only.

Have they not done this? I would assume that they had, and I certainly don't have any evidence that they didn't. Surely anyone testing would be under an NDA, so we wouldn't know anyway.

I think it's rash to assume that there has been no field testing.

Who knows, maybe the S2 will perform flawlessly from the start and all the in-house testing will have caught all the problems.....like the IR and other sensor issues on the M8 ;-)

LJ

I'd be gobsmacked if they hadn't learned some lessons from the IR issue. As for performing flawlessly from the start - do you mean like Canon's recent pro releases? :ROTFL:

If it's something like the IR issue I agree - but most cameras have some issue or other. That's why I think the 'loss leader' idea wouldn't have worked. (see answer to Jack above)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Peter I'm fine sorry if i lashed out. Maybe being on vacation sitting on the beach all day is getting to my head. LOL

I'm just pointing out obvious stuff. Leica simply priced this out of my reach and my ability to justify it

 

[jonoslack]

The cheapest entry point without warranty and Central shutter is 27500. I dare anyone to buy a Leica without a warranty attached to it. Not a great idea folks given there past record.

Hi Guy
surely that's not without warranty - it's certainly WITH warranty in the UK - no question (and the equivalent prices are including tax as well).

sure, it isn't with premium or platinum warranty, but it does, surely, include standard Leica warranty.

 

[thomas]

the big difference between the S2 and my P45+ is I can attach my P45+ to a tech camera or view camera. I can even get the mount swapped to put it on another MF camera platform. In this regard, the S2 is just an over-sized DSLR for $27K ~ $34K...

of course, exactly what I said. But if you DON'T use a tech camera (how many do or consider it?) and just use the P1 with your P45+... where is the difference than?
I use both a tech camera and a 645 with my DBs... so for me the modular system is the way to go, no question.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hi Guy
surely that's not without warranty - it's certainly WITH warranty in the UK - no question (and the equivalent prices are including tax as well).

sure, it isn't with premium or platinum warranty, but it does, surely, include standard Leica warranty.

I think you get a standard 12 month warranty like anything else the premium warranties are advanced loaner swaps and such like Phase does with there 3 year value added which gets you overnight loaners and expedited repairs. I think Leica pretty much copied that idea but we also need to see the specs on this in writing as well. Again send prices out without explanations.

Now with a normal warranty your at Leica mercy with timely repairs. Okay maybe not a fair comment but we can only go by there past record here as well. We all know how many months for customers have spent in Solms and not in there hands. Hopefully this has changed but know one knows for sure either. Talk is cheap

 

[Jack]

Let's face it, most new cameras have issues (Leica isn't the only guilty party by any means)

The P65+ didn't. The P40+ didn't. Nor did the P22+ or P30+ or P45+ before them. Nor did any of the Hassy DBII series AFAIK.

With a Canon DSLR, I am only out $7 grand temporarily as they repair/upgrade the body, and their history is to do that quickly and for free, so my *risk* is low on a net basis. With Leica, it took nearly a year before all the quirks were properly resolved with the M8, and turn-around times were less than stellar for many folks. Reliability was also less than stellar, with several cameras coming back with more problems than when shipped in for service.

The issue is their history. They are a good and honest company and will most certainly make it right EVENTUALLY. But how long will it take, and how many times will I really need to send it in to get it there? That is the issue that will keep people that are historic early adopters to stand by on the sidelines and "wait and see," and I'm not sure Leica has the luxury of surviving a wait-and-see market for the S2...