Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[carstenw]

I still love how people are defending an DSLR for 22k or better 27k with lens.

I don't know where you are going with this comment. Hasselblad and Mamiya cameras are also DSLRs (Digital Single Lens Reflex, in case anyone forgot). If you want to count the removable back as an extra advantage (as opposed to a source of potential problems, which is also a defensible point of view), then don't forget to include all the Leica's advantages on the other side too, please.

 

[carstenw]

I have to admit I like the idea of upgrading just the DB instead of the entire camera.

... is this really a reality? Would anyone with an AFD-II have wanted to upgrade their Phase back and not get the AFD-III? Has anyone with an H2 been able to upgrade the back to an H3DII without upgrading the camera? Much ado is made of this option, but in the real world it doesn't make much sense, and indeed doesn't always exist. When you are ready for a new back, you are generally also ready for a new camera, with accompanying improvements.

The more compelling argument is to be able to share the back with a tech camera. This is something Leica cannot match. I don't see any other serious advantages with the separate back approach, apart maybe from being able to clean the sensor more easily.

 

[carstenw]

The best thing Leica could do is get this camera in the hands of real shooters, regardless of cost. As Marc said earlier in the thread, if that be rental houses, so be it. But IMO they should plan on having about 50 demo copies shipped for 60 day trials to working pros all over the world.

For all we know this is already the case. There are, what, 40 known early prototypes, and possibly more later ones, yet they have hardly been seen in camera shows. I would guess that they are indeed in the hand of pros being put through their paces, under NDA.

 

[carstenw]

At this point, it is looking like that ship has sailed, WRT having enough time to shake things down before launch. Looks like yet another miscalculation in strategy, which does little to boost confidence more.

This begs the question. We know absolutely nothing of what has already transpired. Or are you privy to knowledge that the rest of us don't have?

 

[arashm]

I think maybe part of the DSLR bit comes from the sensor size being smaller than even the current small sensor backs such as the P31+ and the H3DII-31, though by only a bit, and once one crops the top and bottom to create a 3x4 aspect ratio with the S2 files, then it's smaller.
I think part of the problem is if you look at it technically it sits between 35FF and Medium format, so one would like to see that reflected in the pricing.
I speak for myself only, but at 12-15K for a basic kit, I'd be in line already.
But this price would also let me keep all my current gear as a fall back if needed.
I know David mentioned that people have already traded gear in, and I've seen them for sale on LL, there is a part of me that just can't believe people who have already given up their H3D39's and H3D50's for a product that's not even in their hand yet
This is all very confusing.
am

 

[carstenw]

Service Packages for Bodies:
S-Body Premium Service - $1,495
S-Body Platinum Service - $3,795

...

The cheapest entry point without warranty and Central shutter is 27500. I dare anyone to buy a Leica without a warranty attached to it. Not a great idea folks given there past record.

Well, without a service plan, not without a warranty. The mandatory warranty in Europe is two years, the first six months of which they have to prove that it isn't their fault, in case something goes wrong. In the States I think the mandatory warranty is 1 year, with no guarantees, but I am not sure on this point.

You have to spend more on the Leica in exactly the same scenarios as you have to spend more on the Phase warranty, for example. I don't see any difference in the warranty.

In fact, the prices overall are very similar, except for the standard lenses, which Hasselblad and Mamiya give you, and which Leica charges for, and the Leica is much more expensive there. Otherwise there just isn't a huge difference anywhere, more on the order of 10-15% in general. Some of the other Leica lenses are more expensive, but I am willing to stake my reputation that they will also be better, and in any case, the optional leaf shutter is something which Phase cannot match, so there are definite reasons to look at the Leica.

Now I agree with everyone else here that it would be mad to buy one without testing and some careful monitoring of reliability from early buyers, but apart from that, which would be the same with any new system, or indeed camera, I don't see major differences anyway, apart from feature sets. In fact, I would expect that the new Phase body and leaf shutter lenses, should they ever arrive, will be no less problematic than the new Leica system might.

 

[carstenw]

Re Beta testers --- there probably were, and all three of them were probably Leica employees. rolleyes: ) And that is likely the issue with the historic undiscovered problems in the DMR and M8...

Well, that is unfair. Yes, there were undiscovered, remaining problems with the M8, but the DMR was mostly a problem of late delivery, and a promised firmware update which Imacon screwed up by ditching Leica, IIRC. There were many beta testers for the M8, but the problem was that some real issues reported were swept under the rug and "the firmware isn't final, it will surely be fixed", but then it wasn't. Part of the problem was that S. Lee shoved it out of the door early, and this mistake surely won't be repeated, so all the planned time remains to fix discovered issues.

Anyway, time will show.

 

[carstenw]

the issue is that DNG is NOT a standard. And it is NOT open as it is implemented.

I was just responding to the statement as written, which was incorrect. There is nothing that the DNG file format cannot handle which another format can, because the DNG format is extensible. In fact, it is TIFF with slightly different default tag meanings. I implemented a DNG reader (I am a programmer), and have read both specs.

The basic format gives you enough tags to get all the most important information across, such as where to store the image data, how to interpret it, where the Bayer matrix starts, what form it has, colour matrices, and on and on. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a temperature field, although to be fair, I don't recall.

So standard readers would be able to get most of the DNG exactly right, and there might just be one or two odd fields which would not be decodable right off the bat. In fact, Leica has a sterling record in keeping to the standard, with the M8. Admirable, compared to other users of the DNG standard.

Therefore it is more likely that any DNG compliant reader will do well with these files. I agree with Jack and others that ACR/LR are not that great with sharpness, noise and to some extent, colour, but there is nothing stopping Leica from working with Adobe to improve these aspects for the S2, and I presume that they have done just that.

 

[jonoslack]

Leica better have their own specialized SW ready for their S2 DNG files, otherwise this is going to become a real nightmare - just remember back what my DMR did with the DNG files and how this was supported by say Lightroom and/or Aperture

Peter, this is a long time ago - there is no question of needing specialised software for anything other than tethering - Apple will almost certainly support the S2 (in their own good time), Adobe will be using any camera specific information.

The M8 is now excellently supported by many software packages (some better than others of course). Whereas most camera specific software is a real dog (in performance if not in results).

 

[LJL]

This begs the question. We know absolutely nothing of what has already transpired. Or are you privy to knowledge that the rest of us don't have?

Carsten,
You are correct....I am not privy to knowledge of what has transpired. I am going by what has been published and discussed on this forum and others, in magazines and through interviews, etc. The S2 was not in production phase until very recently. That does not provide a whole bunch of time for lots of shakedown testing, especially if most of the lenses are not even going to be available for several more months from now. So most cameras and lenses would be pre-production models. Fair enough, but those may still be undergoing changes, as Leica had commented on. Also, as I recall, there were only 20 or so prototypes out there, not 40, and many of those were being used in demos and marketing events. Folks talked about these events being held all over the place. None of those models were allowing anything other than ISO 100 shooting, from what others also said.

So, using that sort of information, plus comments from folks like Guy who just recently got an offer to submit his name for beta testing, the window of open beta testing may just be starting. Do you think all or any of the possible glitches will be quickly found in time to fix before release in a few months? That seems optimistic to me, but what do I know

Again, I, and some others that are getting accused of "bashing" here are not hammering on the performance stuff of the S2, as nobody has really seen it or tested that part....at least not that has been publicly shared by anybody. The issue is the proposed cost of this new system, which as far as we know remains untested on a broad scale, is closer to a 35mm DSLR (good and bad for some folks), but is being priced at the higher end or above the supposed competitive offerings from Phase and Hasselblad. In other words, that "Leica premium" seems quite high, even for seasoned Leica folks, and especially in the present economy.

Please do not get me wrong....I think the concept is great. I myself had been wishing and saving and planning for this new beast. However, at this point, I feel that the pricing and lack of other important info and testing have taken this off my radar at this point. Had Leica come in at a much more competitive level for at least the body, the taste may not be as sour as they have made it now. I fully expected it to be expensive, just not nearly as expensive as they are now making it. It still is NOT a full-blown MF solution, AND it is not the top flight 35mm DSLR sort of solution either. It is a tweener.....yet it priced higher than what even seems reasonable in the market and for whatever niche it is supposed to fill. That is my opinion, but seemingly shared by a lot of others also. What is wrong with that? Why should I and others not feel disappointed, or even disenfranchised a bit from Leica, whom many of us have been loyal users and proponents for a long time? I shot Nikon for 25 years, but when they could not field a decent professional DSLR until the D2x at least, I was glad I switched to Canon. Now Canon is getting long in the tooth with its 1-series machines. That is the consumer/user in me, and that is what Leica, Phase, Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon and anybody else has to contend with, but I know I am not alone in this group of shooters, pro or not.

LJ

 

[stephengilbert]

At the risk of getting people's knickers in a twist (is that right?): you could argue that the Leica Platinum service option is a bargain compared to the Phase version. After all, Phase backs rarely fail, so they keep more of the money. You might well get your money's worth from the Leica plan. :angel:

 

[thomas]

Originally Posted by thomas View Post

I have to admit I like the idea of upgrading just the DB instead of the entire camera.

... is this really a reality?

Carsten, yes. First I have 2 Contax' and I honstly have no plans to replace it within the next years. Just doesn't make sense for me personally (at first I'd like to have some more lenses and accessories for my tech camera). Secondly - even if I would think about camera updates - I don't have to upgarde the sensor and the camera at the same time so this might be more bearable regarding expense. Look: with a Contax system I could upgrade today to the state of the art product (P65+). The lenses are still good enough... the entire system is just great (apart from flash sync / leaf shutter lenses which I do not need). So... no, I would not like to "upgrade" from my Contax to any Phase/Mamiya camera. If this would be the price I wouldn't shoot 645 at all anymore; I'd use the DB just with the view camera and would buy in addition a nice FF DSLR (probably the A900). And if my Contax' will ever go bust... I don't think that I am going to replace it with any other 645 or MF camera. But I hope it will never go bust... would be glad to use it for many many years.

 

[LJL]

Stephen,
Is that not the big "health care" problem now....pay more, but get less while the "insurers" are the ones raking in the profits? ;-)

LJ

 

[carstenw]

Well, there is too much to respond to here, but a few points:

- The S2 is not particularly expensive compared to the competition in Europe and Britain. Only the States' economy has made it expensive there. Leica cannot compete fully with the low prices being offered in the States by Hasselblad and Phase, who have already amortized their body and back production costs at this point, but in general, the prices are very close.

- The prototypes were very scarce on the ground. They showed up at Photokina, and one or two other known events, but in general one would have expected a far greater presence if they had indeed all been available for shows all the time. These shows are not that close together. I expect that the offer Guy recently got corresponds to a more open secondary phase, with greater numbers of cameras. These two stages would correspond to beta testing and final release candidate testing, with the earlier alpha stages having been completed before even the 20/40 prototypes were made.

I agree with you that this camera isn't really fully on any of our radars at this point. We would be stupid (or rich enough to cover the potential loss) to enter into it at this early a stage. I also doubt that I personally can justify or afford it in any way any time soon, but I can tell you 100% that if I had the possibility, I would be looking at this camera very seriously.

 

[carstenw]

Carsten, yes. First I have 2 Contax' and I honstly have no plans to replace it within the next years. Just doesn't make sense for me personally (at first I'd like to have some more lenses and accessories for my tech camera). Secondly - even if I would think about camera updates - I don't have to upgarde the sensor and the camera at the same time so this might be more bearable regarding expense.

Okay, as a Contax owner (me too, btw, albeit with a Sinar 54LV) you have a point, although I would still claim that the point is minor. Especially Phase is known to throw the camera and kit lens after you if you leave an extra dollar, or so The mount would be the only problem, as a Contax owner, but if you had bought the 3-year extended plan, you could switch that too.

 

[LJL]

I also doubt that I personally can justify or afford it in any way any time soon, but I can tell you 100% that if I had the possibility, I would be looking at this camera very seriously.

That is the point.....if it were priced more appropriately, you and many others would be looking at it and lining up in some way. But it is not priced in any way that seems reasonable....in the US, Europe, Australia, Asia or elsewhere....at least by a fair number of potential buyers. Maybe there are tons of fashion pros out there that never interact with forums, or dealers or anybody else that will pony up to the price, but seriously, that seems a stretch also.

LJ

 

[thomas]

Especially Phase is known to throw the camera and kit lens after you if you leave an extra dollar, or so

hmh... maybe not for those who buy refurbished... I don't know. But basically you are right.

 

[carstenw]

I will not be looking at it for €15000, with or without lens. My price range at the moment for something like this is about €2000, and even if I bought an A900, my girlfriend would be giving me hard-to-ignore looks To be honest, I am quite happy with my Contax 645 and Sinar 54LV, and my M8. I would dearly love an S2, but I don't know how I would justify it. Maybe in two years or so. In my near future is only maybe a Contax 645 210mm lens.

 

[arashm]

In other words, that "Leica premium" seems quite high, even for seasoned Leica folks, and especially in the present economy.
LJ

For one thing when Mr. Erhardt has to go on record and defend the price point, you know it's priced too high, and there is something wrong.
But the funny thing is, for some reason I can accept the price of the lenses, even though they are very high, it's the body and grip that I think is just over priced.
explain to me how a grip can cost $1295.00
am

 

[carstenw]

Maybe there are tons of fashion pros out there that never interact with forums

I think that is a given. I think mostly people who have at one time or another worked with computers, and a very few others, mostly friends of the above, are actually spending as much time online as us losers