Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[fotografz]

Can you sell something without warranty in the states?
In Europe there is a legal 2 year standard warranty, whether you like it or not!

So what are the two different S2 warranties that you have to pay for? If you get a manditory 2 year warrany in Europe, what extra are you paying for?

 

[carstenw]

It is not a warranty, it is a service plan. Lenders, guaranteed turn-around times, that sort of thing. It is more about keeping downtime to a minimum. Warranty you will get in any case, but the work might be performed slower.

 

[carstenw]

The camera body with fixed built in sensor is the show stopper for me. Not enough flexibility for tech work and for upgrades. Which is imperative at these price levels.

This has nothing to do with price levels. It has to do with what *you* need. If you need a tech camera (strange, since you have never had one; how did you survive?), then you can't use the Leica.

this is exactly the point, the H3D2-50 with standard lens is far better in resolution

Keeping things in perspective here, as an example, the difference between 37.5 and 50 MP is a bit larger than the difference between A3 and A3+, but nowhere near A2... Jack, Guy and others have gone on the record saying that the differences between 22MP and 31MP, or 31MP and 39MP, and so on, are not that visible most of the time. I think that some of the features of the different cameras are far more important than the minor effective difference in resolution.

 

[jonoslack]

But an entrance ticket that is 10% higher for a new system, compared to one that has been on the market for many years isn't much to write home about if you ask me.

Yes, I know that Mamiya is cheaper, but that's nothing new either. People do buy Leica M7 even if a Bessa is cheaper too, and really does the same job.

Quite agree Jorgen
and if the sticking point is that people don't trust Leica support, then they wouldn't buy it if it were cheaper either.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Jorgen,

this is exactly the point, the H3D2-50 with standard lens is far better in resolution, flexibility of the system and SW and has a proven track record, whereas the S2 is more expensive, less resolution, less flexibility and has no SW coming with it (I am talking about manufacturer generated SW like Phocus or C1Pro) and the support and the reliability of the S System is just in the stars for the next couple of years.

Far better resolution is to overstate it a bit. The Leica sensor is around 7500 x 5000 pixels, while the Hasselblad is 8176 x 6132. That means that the Hasselblad sensor with regards to pixel count is 9% wider and 23% taller (the Hasselblad has an aspect ratio of 4:3 and the Leica 3:2). But if the Leica lenses are better than the Fuji lenses, that advantage may fast turn into dust.

There's obviously more options available for the H3D. The camera that it's based on was launched seven years ago, while the Leica isn't yet on the market. But that also means that at least parts of the technology in the Hasselblad is seven years old.

Obviously, there's a risk buying new technology. I believe some of those who bought the first cameras in the H-series had some experiences they could well have been without, not to mention the situation that arose when Hasselblad launched the H3D and closed the door to the past, and to the future for many H2 owners.

The fact that there's no proprietary software available for the S2 has nothing to do with the price, but with the usability of the camera. For many photographers, this is a big issue, but for others, it's not. If the camera sells, and I'm more than convinced that it will, software will appear that can do the job.

As for flexibility, it also depends on what glasses you wear. For me, flexibility means having a camera that is ready when I am, is compact enough to carry anywhere, and can live the life that I live. Even getting through customs in some countries I travel to is difficult if you carry something that doesn't look like a "normal" camera.

The professional photographers of the future doesn't know what a darkroom is, and probably take their first photos with a Nokia. To them, a traditional MF camera is ancient technology. The alternative for them won't be a Hasselblad or a Mamiya, but a Scarlet. That's the flexible solution for the future, for studio, for landscapes and for video too.

 

[dfarkas]

Does the S2 and its lenses come with a standard factory warrany or not? Or do you have to choose one of the extra cost warranties? I can't seem to figure this out.

If you have to buy one, then the price is even more than $27,500. for the base kit because no warranty on a new MFD camera is just nuts. Once you've used it for a good number of months or shots with no issues, then the warranty need fades in importance IMHO.

The S2 and lenses come with a standard 12-month transferable warranty.

The Premium and Platinum Service Packages both extend the warranty period for an additional 12 months and add other benefits.

For instance, both packages include swap-out replacements during the first three months. If anything goes wrong/breaks during this period, Leica will just overnight you a new camera/lens instead of repairing your camera. Generally speaking, most mechanical and/or electronic equipment will fail during the first 30-60 days if it is going to fail due to a defect. They also both include a 30% discount on non-warranty-covered repairs, such as accidental damage due to drops.

The Platinum package includes a shutter and/or central shutter replacement. In the case of a heavy user (like a busy, constantly working pro or rental studio), this can be a great benefit. Say you've had the S2 for 1 year, 11 months, and 3 weeks. You have shot 100,000 shots and everything is still working fine. As your service package is close to expiring, you send in your camera for the included maintenance service. Leica does a full CLA, brings everyting up to spec, and installs a brand new shutter, thus extending the life of the camera. For heavy users and rental studios this is a great deal, as Hasselblad charges $1800 for a central shutter replacement (per lens) and this is not offered in their CCP plan. The Platinum package also includes free loaner gear if yours is in for repair.

Keep in mind that as a Leica Professional Dealer, we will also have rental/loaner gear that we can provide to our customers regardless of service package. So, even if one of my customers gets the Premium package (no loaner gear from Leica), I can still send out a courtesy loaner to him/her to cover a job. And, even if Leica has a dedicated S2 support line (they will), I'd fully expect that my customers will contact me 24/7 as their first point of contact. At this level, having a good dealer that you trust is extremely important, regardless of the service package you purchase.

David

 

[stephengilbert]

"Two bodies and a selection of lenses, ready to shoot, can easily be carried in a moderately sized camera bag." By one of your staffers or bodyguards.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

"Two bodies and a selection of lenses, ready to shoot, can easily be carried in a moderately sized camera bag." By one of your staffers or bodyguards.

The S2 weighs the same as a Nikon D3 or D3X and 100g less than a Canon 1DIII or 1DsIII. It's also considerably smaller than all of those cameras unless a vertical grip is fitted. I believe it's even smaller than my Fuji S3.

One body and 3 lenses would even fit in my Kata DR-467 Digital Rucksack, still leaving enough room for a netbook, backup HDD, battery chargers and clothes for 2-3 days.

 

[David K]

Question for David F... Are the announced prices guaranteed if you are on the wait list. With the dollar spiraling downward I can't help but wonder at what point Leica might find itself forced to increase pricing.

 

[Paratom]

I am quite surprized of all these reactions here. The S2 is really expensive that is sure. But am I wrong or these view camera kit with a digital back with large format digital lens kit are far more expensive no ?

I know the use is not the same, but I have the feeling that some people in this forum have put a lot of money in MF system that are now a bit "old' (digitally speaking) and the crisis and the low dollar value exclude them from the game.

If the business go on, many could change their mind...

Anyway a good photo is first a good photograph...Think of the great classical pictures who have been shot with a point and shoot !!!

Sure, I love gear !!!! But since I am a Leica afficionados, I have never seen something affordable in this brand ! I personnaly won't go for this system as it's not my personnal shooting style...but who knows ???

I paid roughly the same for an arTec body, a 33MP Sinar back, a 35mm Rodenstock lens, a loupe what you pay for an S2.
Yes, 33MP is less resolution, but than again I can use the same back on any other MF-camera.

if discussing S2 prices you have to make sure that you talk about the same. I have seen S2 price which included 15/18% VAT, most Hassy, Phase, Sinar prices we see are without any VAT/Tax.

 

[Paratom]

The S2 weighs the same as a Nikon D3 or D3X and 100g less than a Canon 1DIII or 1DsIII. It's also considerably smaller than all of those cameras unless a vertical grip is fitted. I believe it's even smaller than my Fuji S3.

One body and 3 lenses would even fit in my Kata DR-467 Digital Rucksack, still leaving enough room for a netbook, backup HDD, battery chargers and clothes for 2-3 days.

Yes, but a D3x has an integrated grip so you would have to compare the S2 with a D700 or you would have to add the grip to the S2 for a fair comparison. The same about lenses. The S2system wont be much lighter than other MF-systems, maybe the body somewhat smaller.

 

[dhsimmonds]

The prices quoted for those lenses are a bit of a shocker....especially as I understand that they are "leicarised" Bronica designs. Not that there is anything wrong with leicarising per se as after all some of the early Leica reflex lenses were Minolta designs and even manufactured by Minolta in some instances. They were and still are superb lenses.

However, like Guy and Jack I shall be passing on the S2. Not least because I did not like the way in which Leica management pulled the plug on the R10 and R system after building it up after Photokina. If they can do it once then they can do it again with the S2 system one day...........and that would be a lot of serious cash to jeopardise.

I respect the Leica quality but I no longer trust their management......and I am very sorry about that.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I paid roughly the same for an arTec body, a 33MP Sinar back, a 35mm Rodenstock lens, a loupe what you pay for an S2.
Yes, 33MP is less resolution, but than again I can use the same back on any other MF-camera.

The S2 is obviously a no-go for those who need other types of bodies, but only a small fraction of photographers do that.

This may also be one of the reasons why the R10 was killed. That would not have been a cheap camera either, and the lenses probably as expensive as those for the S2. As soon as those with an arsenal of R-lenses had bought their bodies, the S2 would probably have killed further sales, leaving Leica unable to pay for the development costs of bodies as well as new AF lenses for the R-system.

 

[jonoslack]

I respect the Leica quality but I no longer trust their management......and I am very sorry about that.

I think that it's hard to blame their management for the R10 decision, which was surely made in the face of the biggest world depression since the 30's

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Yes, but a D3x has an integrated grip so you would have to compare the S2 with a D700 or you would have to add the grip to the S2 for a fair comparison. The same about lenses. The S2system wont be much lighter than other MF-systems, maybe the body somewhat smaller.

The S2 seems to be about the same size as the D700, but it's 200g heavier. The big difference compared to other MF cameras is partly the size of the body, but in particular the shape. A body without lens is very thin, like any DSLR, and can be carried in a very small bag together with a few lenses. The boxy shape of the Hasselblad and Mamiya simply doesn't allow that to the same degree.

 

[Paratom]

I think that it's hard to blame their management for the R10 decision, which was surely made in the face of the biggest world depression since the 30's

I think they could have made faster andmore cash with just a new R10 which should accept existing Leica lenses.
People could have started with their existing class (meaning it would be financially easier to get into a new R system) and afterwards maybe add AF lenses step by step.

So yes, I would blame the management for that decission.

 

[dougpeterson]

The camera body with fixed built in sensor is the show stopper for me. Not enough flexibility for tech work and for upgrades. Which is imperative at these price levels.

This has nothing to do with price levels. It has to do with what *you* need. If you need a tech camera (strange, since you have never had one; how did you survive?), then you can't use the Leica.

LOL, see this video (starting at 1:57) for why Ptomsu wants a system with a tech body. Just look as his big goofy Austrian smile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C8dFEA6QvA&feature=channel_page

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[thomas]

if discussing S2 prices you have to make sure that you talk about the same. I have seen S2 price which included 15/18% VAT, most Hassy, Phase, Sinar prices we see are without any VAT/Tax.

without Dollar exchange but in Euros this is the picture:

AFD-3, M31, 80mm = €15.500 (incl. 1 year classical)
P1, P30+, 80mm = €16.400 (incl. 1 year classical)
P1, P40+, 80mm = €20.000 (incl. 1 year classical)
H3D2-31, 80mm = € 10000 - 14000
Leica S2, 70mm = €24.000,- (lens without leaf shutter; incl. "small" premium service body & lens)

all incl. 19% VAT

I don't understand why to compare to a H3D2-39 or -50 or to a P45+ ...

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

However, like Guy and Jack I shall be passing on the S2. Not least because I did not like the way in which Leica management pulled the plug on the R10 and R system after building it up after Photokina. If they can do it once then they can do it again with the S2 system one day...........and that would be a lot of serious cash to jeopardise.

I respect the Leica quality but I no longer trust their management......and I am very sorry about that.

Camera manufacturers do that all the time. Canon did it when they changed from FD to EF mount, Hasselblad disconnected a lot of users with the H3D, Olympus changed mount when they went digital, and Nikon has so many incompatibilities that I can't even count them.

Leica, on the other hand, still produces a camera system where you can use most of the lenses that they made in pre-historic times (before I was born anyway), while all others discontinued their rangefinder cameras.

Any camera system can be discontinued overnight and any camera manufacturer can go bankrupt tomorrow.

 

[stephengilbert]

Jorgen,

You missed my point, which was that two bodies a a set of lenses will cost $100,000.

Steve