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Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

fotografz

Well-known member
Your last sentence is unfortunately(?)

Sorry for the long posts, but I do believe that there are changes ahead that are at least as big as the transition from film to digital, probably even more so. Believing that the transition from film to digital photography was it, simply doesn't hold enough water.
Oh, I most certainly do not think the Fat Lady has sung on new developments. Far from it. I've been around a looooooong time and have seen incredible changes in technology. My first job as a kid was setting type and cleaning presses :ROTFL: The first TV commercials I ever created were 60 seconds long and were cut on film. Some even 90 seconds long.

Don't mistake disagreement with your scenario as "limiting the possibilities". What possibilities does this bring to the party that do not already exist? Some cheaper method of using one piece of gear for both diciplines? What is profound about that? What is so thrifty about that? I can, and have, rented a Canon video camera and used my L lenses to do test commercials. The difference is a non-issue. The client could've cared less what I used.

BTW, guess where almost ALL TV test commercials are now shown to consumer target groups ... the internet.

Digital still photography was profoundly different as far as commercial applications are concerned. IMO, this isn't.

People may well flock to it, and the garbage will pile up.
 

LJL

New member
I cannot wait for the discussions over why the video clips look "flat" and stuff like that. Wait until folks start having to work with HMIs and other continuous lighting in order to get a decent clip/shot. If they are complaining now about packs, heads, boxes, etc., does anybody think it will be easier to get dramatic lighting needed for really good video without learning that part of the operation....and footing the bills for that gear? This is going to get very interesting for sure.

LJ
 

Mozbee

New member
Good points on the difference between making motion and making stills - different world's and I have no interest in making crappy home videos - dont own a video camera think that they are silly toys..

Re Line Pairs - I dont give a rats tail about Zeiss claimed nonsence - neither of these quoted lenses is going to give me movements my friend - which was the point of my post - intenet chatter gets very tiring when people pervert a discussion by focusing on a phrase and missing the woods for a a tree as they say.

You get to a certain age (some of sooner some of us later) and you just dont want any more - you start wanting less...quality becomes more important and gimmicks become tiresome bumps in the road.

I am pretty close to ditching all my MFD gear except for one back to use on an Alpa and an arTec - hand held MF is not for me.
I'm sorry Peter that I didn't get your point first!
Thank you for bringing that clarification and I understand your point a lot better now! Indeed you didn't have to imply that I perverted your discussion just because I interpreted something you wrote in a different way than what you intended. I just don't deserve that. Peace!
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Oh, I most certainly do not think the Fat Lady has sung on new developments. Far from it. I've been around a looooooong time and have seen incredible changes in technology. My first job as a kid was setting type and cleaning presses :ROTFL: The first TV commercials I ever created were 60 seconds long and were cut on film. Some even 90 seconds long.

Don't mistake disagreement with your scenario as "limiting the possibilities". What possibilities does this bring to the party that do not already exist? Some cheaper method of using one piece of gear for both diciplines? What is profound about that? What is so thrifty about that? I can, and have, rented a Canon video camera and used my L lenses to do test commercials. The difference is a non-issue. The client could've cared less what I used.

BTW, guess where almost ALL TV test commercials are now shown to consumer target groups ... the internet.

Digital still photography was profoundly different as far as commercial applications are concerned. IMO, this isn't.

People may well flock to it, and the garbage will pile up.
The difference is the entrance ticket. High-end video gear has always been very expensive, making it a profession for a relatively small group photographers who could charge a premium for their services. With the new breed of gear, anyone with enough knowledge and creativity can give it a go. So, competition will get harder, prices will go down, more clients can afford to buy the services (sometimes instead of making it themselves, which is usually a disaster anyway), and the demand will increase.

It's a different world, just like microstock is for the stock industry, but there's money to be earned, and the creative possibilities are endless.

Of course people will flock to it, and of course garbage will pile up, but those with creative ideas and skills will always float at the top
 

fotografz

Well-known member
10 minutes on YouTube makes me wonder if we need anymore video devices. I'd rather see the R&D dSLR budgets spent on better sensors capable of greater DR, full 16-bit files, etc. In that regard the S2 might be a good thing. But I don't have $30k laying about, and even if I did, I doubt I spend it on an S2.
I agree John.

Heck, this digital stuff is coming out at a ferocios rate of development, and I seriously feel that we aren't even getting all that a camera can do because it isn't around long enough to really explore the possibilities.
 
R

roguewave

Guest
I'm curious about one thing. Has anyone on this forum actually used this camera? If so, do they have anything of substance to discuss & display in regards to the images it renders.

I live in NYC and I'm on the street almost everyday taking images. Although the financial sector appears to have liquefied like molten lava, the average employee at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Barclays (Lehman Bros) and several dozen other hedge funds, private equity & other little empires will soon receive an average BONUS OF 700K - 500K, shortly. They already own several homes, pied-a-tiers, yachts.... Conspicuous consumption is their stock in trade. On weekends some of the Quant guys (the people that design the trading programs & make millions in BASE salary) come to Washington Square Park with wads of $100 bills to play chess & more importantly to BET on other players. There is a world of MONOPOLY Money that many don't really understand. Money is no object. These same folks often are lugging 25-40K worth of MF Hassy or M8.2 with 5 new Summiluxs around in a canvas sling bag. I'm talking throwaway style.

The Leica brand has lasted a long time. It, like Cartier, Brendel & just a few others still means the Pinnacle. There is no second, if only in cache. Wherever I go, on any street, uptown, downtown, in the furthest reaches of Harlem, the Bronx, Bed-Sty, EVERYONE knows what Leica is & WANTS one. The fact that it’s out of reach is the reason it will sell. Many of the owners of current Leica gear can’t use them & don’t know how. They don’t care about that. It is often an heirloom & will remain so, like a Rolex.

If the S2 provides the kind of quality that Vanity Fair demands, it has a future. It may not be yours or mine but one thing still sells and always will. Those that can afford the best buy it.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I have played with it at PMA. Styling wise it is very nice. Lenses are big and heavy which is typical of Leica DSLR lenses like the R only bigger. And yes the Leica will always sell to the wear the jewelry on their sleeve crowd but the S2 is supposedly aimed at the Pro market which is more a function over form crowd. Instead of the form over function crowd. Obviously sometimes those lines are blurred. We also have to remember there is no M or R system starting at these levels of price either. Slinging a 25k M or R system around ones neck is no big deal and have done it many times even in the streets of NY but we are not talking that price level either this is S system at about 50k slinging around ones neck and not really a toy but a nice size bulky bag which I do daily with my MF system but I do have some purpose other than jetting from Battery park to Bergdoff's. Hopefully I am shooting for real money instead. LOL

But I agree some will buy the best but who is saying this is actually it. Still a question mark and frankly it is not the best in MF photography at least in many eye's.

This reminds me of the other night taking my 12 year old to basketball tryouts and looking over my shoulder I see two NBA star players in there sneakers and gym shorts very unimposing until you walked outside and see the Rolls and the 300k Mercedes parked next to each other. Now did they need to drive those cars to a youth basketball tryout in a public school. No but maybe they don't have a Chevy either but any case it's there jewelry and who really gives a crap. It did not impress one parent their.


I will add many shooters are not impressed by what others may think is the best , we buy with needs in mind as to what will get the job done and get a ROI on our investment. If many can spend 30k on a system instead of 60k on a system that bears very little IQ difference than 9 times out of 10 the business person will go with the lower price to gain the ROI on his investment. There is a big difference between need and want and many Pro's are working on what they really need basis and could give a rats arch on some celebrity walking around with a Leica and having what they think is jewelry on there arm. These are tools and there sole purpose is to get image to sensor and nothing else matters
 

stephengilbert

Active member
No doubt there are literally millions of people who are relatively unscathed by the current financial crisis. But that doesn't mean there are millions of people who want to buy a Leica. I haven't seen any data suggesting that the employees of Goldman Sachs are ordering cameras as their chosen form of conspicuous consumption.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Great post - made my morning!:D

I hope that there are some backgammon boards in teh vicinity as well.


I'm curious about one thing. Has anyone on this forum actually used this camera? If so, do they have anything of substance to discuss & display in regards to the images it renders.

I live in NYC and I'm on the street almost everyday taking images. Although the financial sector appears to have liquefied like molten lava, the average employee at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Barclays (Lehman Bros) and several dozen other hedge funds, private equity & other little empires will soon receive an average BONUS OF 700K - 500K, shortly. They already own several homes, pied-a-tiers, yachts.... Conspicuous consumption is their stock in trade. On weekends some of the Quant guys (the people that design the trading programs & make millions in BASE salary) come to Washington Square Park with wads of $100 bills to play chess & more importantly to BET on other players. There is a world of MONOPOLY Money that many don't really understand. Money is no object. These same folks often are lugging 25-40K worth of MF Hassy or M8.2 with 5 new Summiluxs around in a canvas sling bag. I'm talking throwaway style.

The Leica brand has lasted a long time. It, like Cartier, Brendel & just a few others still means the Pinnacle. There is no second, if only in cache. Wherever I go, on any street, uptown, downtown, in the furthest reaches of Harlem, the Bronx, Bed-Sty, EVERYONE knows what Leica is & WANTS one. The fact that it’s out of reach is the reason it will sell. Many of the owners of current Leica gear can’t use them & don’t know how. They don’t care about that. It is often an heirloom & will remain so, like a Rolex.

If the S2 provides the kind of quality that Vanity Fair demands, it has a future. It may not be yours or mine but one thing still sells and always will. Those that can afford the best buy it.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
No doubt there are literally millions of people who are relatively unscathed by the current financial crisis. But that doesn't mean there are millions of people who want to buy a Leica. I haven't seen any data suggesting that the employees of Goldman Sachs are ordering cameras as their chosen form of conspicuous consumption.
that is a funny post - actually a conspicuous consumption index may actually be a good idea!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I'm curious about one thing. Has anyone on this forum actually used this camera? If so, do they have anything of substance to discuss & display in regards to the images it renders.

I live in NYC and I'm on the street almost everyday taking images. Although the financial sector appears to have liquefied like molten lava, the average employee at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Barclays (Lehman Bros) and several dozen other hedge funds, private equity & other little empires will soon receive an average BONUS OF 700K - 500K, shortly. They already own several homes, pied-a-tiers, yachts.... Conspicuous consumption is their stock in trade. On weekends some of the Quant guys (the people that design the trading programs & make millions in BASE salary) come to Washington Square Park with wads of $100 bills to play chess & more importantly to BET on other players. There is a world of MONOPOLY Money that many don't really understand. Money is no object. These same folks often are lugging 25-40K worth of MF Hassy or M8.2 with 5 new Summiluxs around in a canvas sling bag. I'm talking throwaway style.

The Leica brand has lasted a long time. It, like Cartier, Brendel & just a few others still means the Pinnacle. There is no second, if only in cache. Wherever I go, on any street, uptown, downtown, in the furthest reaches of Harlem, the Bronx, Bed-Sty, EVERYONE knows what Leica is & WANTS one. The fact that it’s out of reach is the reason it will sell. Many of the owners of current Leica gear can’t use them & don’t know how. They don’t care about that. It is often an heirloom & will remain so, like a Rolex.

If the S2 provides the kind of quality that Vanity Fair demands, it has a future. It may not be yours or mine but one thing still sells and always will. Those that can afford the best buy it.
Then Leica should wrap it in baby Harp Seal skin, then have Wagnerian Hand Maidens ceremoniously place it in a White Tiger fur lined box ... and charge more for it. :)
 
R

roguewave

Guest
I have played with it at PMA.

But I agree some will buy the best but who is saying this is actually it. Still a question mark and frankly it is not the best in MF photography at least in many eye's.
My point exactly. I "played with it" too. I still don't really know anything of substance about the imagery, or let's call it "Work product".

It just seems that you have drawn a line in the sand without any real knowledge about what this system can DO. You have the right to do so, but it seems out of character for an educator and a leader of work shops to baptize something that nobody knows much about as yet. From the tenor of your post you obviously consider this product DOA. You might be right. I don't have answers & frankly I came to this thread looking for knowledge, not speculation.

For those that have resentment about the price, there's an endless line. I won't be able to afford this system, but given the wonderful partnership I have with all my various Leica cameras & lenses since 1973, My M3 is still the best rangefinder I can use with the world’s best 35mm lenses. My DMR is still the best digital camera on the planet for the kind of imagery that interests me. The R glass & DMR are incomparable when it comes to bokeh, color & sharpness. I’m still willing to see the goods before I pronounce judgment. I’m not sure what skin you might have in the game to do otherwise?
 

LJL

New member
Roguewave,
A point you make is really a big issue right now.....you came looking for knowledge.....that is pretty much what a lot of folks have been asking for quite some time about the S2. Instead, they have received scattered bits of information, some second or third hand comments, a lucky few have "played" with a prototype, etc. There are few real specs published of the production version, but Leica has seen to it to post a price listing that intimates the S2 is at or near the top level of the MF cameras known to produce and that are used daily. Nobody has seen much more of anything than that. However, folks that do shoot MF, and have used just about every variety of lens, body, back that is available, do understand that it will be quite a stretch for Leica to produce something that will be capable of producing images that are head and shoulders above what is out there now at much more modest prices.

I think most folks reading this thread are looking for data, specs, real sample shots and files to make the call. All they have instead is a list of very pricey products and some marketspeak about how great and groundbreaking the S2 is or will be. Did you really expect folks that do know something about photographic gear to NOT speculate, based on what little they have to work with, but what has been promised?

The pricing does take the breath away from a lot of folks that would be serious candidates for this system, and I am not talking about the collectors and those with tons of disposable cash. Leica wants their money too, rest assured.

I guess the question those folks have to ask, like the wealthy crowd you mention, is just what will they be using a camera like this for? Surely most are not going to be looking forward to 100+MB files for snapshots to send to Muffy, are they?

Stick around.....specs are promised shortly, as are sample images. Then the pixel peepers and others will start to dig into them and figure out just whether the Leica promises are delivering at the price they are asking.

LJ
 

Seascape

New member
This whole thing is just too funny. I should say that while the thought of owning a S2 system might seem intriguing , the stated pricing puts it out of reach for me personally.....in the same way an Aston Martin is out of reach.

What I do find interesting, is that people seem to be personally offended that Leica has priced this product out of their price range. I don't see people saying, I'm a good driver, I should be able to buy an Aston Martin. Why don't they price them so that I can buy one :wtf:

If Leica has decided to market the S2 to elite fashion photographers, and the conspicuous consumption crowd, so be it. :toocool:
 
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Christopher

Active member
Well people are offended, because as I am, they are afraid this could be Leicas Last mistake. I think really nobody would like to see that because we all want a R10, but especially an M9.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
After many years of being a real Leica fan I finally sold all my R gear, still keeping my M system - do not know for how long - as I can see my photographic style/needs changed so much I will no longer be able to get real benefit out of these Leica systems.

What I find disappointing by Leica is, that they literally left R users standing in the rain after putting some rumors on them for many years and they do the same with the M system and instead of having done their homework in the M and R area they come up with another system - the S system - in an area where they are very likely to fail, just because of the requested pricing structure etc.

And after all they are not even able to keep their promised delivery times for that S system - a real shame - but actually what would one have expected different from that company after the last decades.

For me the whole story is rather the proof for the coming death of Leica - no matter how many S systems they are able to sell :cool:
 

etrigan63

Active member
I spoke with David Farkas recently and he told me that the folks who pre-ordered the S2 prior to the USA price announcement didn't even bat an eye when the final pricing was announced. No one canceled and all ponied up the cash/credit to purchase the systems. Perhaps there is an untapped market of Leica users who were waiting for Leica to make the move to medium format. If so, that is a new definition of "loyal".

I, like the many other working professionals here, have to weigh cost/benefit before plunking down any hard-earned sheckles on an unproven system costing this much. Until I see the goods and files it produces and compare them to the competition, I will reserve judgment on the S2.

For now, I am picking up a nice demo M8 to replace the one I sold.
 

carstenw

Active member
Although the financial sector appears to have liquefied like molten lava, the average employee at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Barclays (Lehman Bros) and several dozen other hedge funds, private equity & other little empires will soon receive an average BONUS OF 700K - 500K, shortly. They already own several homes, pied-a-tiers, yachts...
Interesting post, and I agree that the camera shouldn't be judged in advance, but this particular bit sounds made up. The average employee at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Barclays, et al, doesn't even earn a base salary anywhere near that high. I expect that there is a very tiny core of managers who earn bonuses in that range.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
This forum is starting to sound like a socialists cabal - please keep up the stoopid commentary - it is very amusing. Can someone please explain to me - what 'conspicuous consumption' is:wtf: and what the current penalty is for doing so in the communist republic of America?

Thank you in advance commrades.:ROTFL::ROTFL:
 
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