Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[David K]

Conspicuous consumption isn't a crime here (yet) so the only real penalty is that you might engender disdain and scorn from those that, in better times, might have had a feeling more like envy. Kind of like wearing a fur coat Of course, if you bump into this, the odds are you're probably hanging around with the wrong crowd...

 

[dfarkas]

I spoke with David Farkas recently and he told me that the folks who pre-ordered the S2 prior to the USA price announcement didn't even bat an eye when the final pricing was announced. No one canceled and all ponied up the cash/credit to purchase the systems. Perhaps there is an untapped market of Leica users who were waiting for Leica to make the move to medium format. If so, that is a new definition of "loyal".

I, like the many other working professionals here, have to weigh cost/benefit before plunking down any hard-earned sheckles on an unproven system costing this much. Until I see the goods and files it produces and compare them to the competition, I will reserve judgment on the S2.

For now, I am picking up a nice demo M8 to replace the one I sold.

I wouldn't say they didn't bat an eye. They just weren't too surprised as I gave them an estimate of $18-23K for the body before pricing was announced (this was my guess at that time). So, pretty much everyone on my list understood the pricing and was (mostly) prepared for it. When all was said and done, one person backed out due to price, but he had expressed at the time of pre-order that he hoped the camera would be priced much lower than my esitmate. And, since pricing has come out, several others have contacted me to pre-order. So, believe it or not, the net result after pricing is positive.

From my conversations, the message is clear. If the S2 delivers the promised IQ and ergonomics/speed, it will be a big success for Leica. There are those that have wanted a system like this for a long time. The S2 has filled that void. I can unequivocally say that not one of my customers thinks of the S2 as jewlery or a status symbol. They are all interested in the performance and form factor, combined with Leica glass, both amateur and pro alike.

David

 

[LJL]

Getting a bit lost, again, in what is being asked/said. The issue of "conspicuous consumption" is whatever it is. I thought one of the issues being discussed was whether the new Leica S2 system is worth as much as Leica is asking.....the value/performance debate. Sure, anybody with means can always spend a lot and maybe more than the value of what they are really buying. So what. A key component here, and something we do not yet really know, is just how well the S2 does or does not do. Right now we have limited information and marketing. We also have a price tag that suggests the S2 is at or above the highest end in the MF market of Phase, Hasselblad and whatever folks want to think about with respect to lenses and stuff. It may well be that the S2 does hold its own against some of the bigger kits. We just do not have anything to support nor refute that today. What we do know is that the sensor is smaller than other top end MF kits. We do know that the system is not modular. We do not know how upgradable it may or may not be. We do know that it appears to be more like a 35mm DSLR system (nothing inherently good or bad in that alone, just what it is). We do know that there will be a spread of time before the system is really complete, with respect to lenses that some may want or need to use. We have no idea how good or bad the service associated with the S2 will be, but we do have some experiences from other Leica products.....they tend to eventually try to make things right, but it may take a lot longer than some can tolerate for their needs. Again, we just have not seen Leica's new service offering played out. We see the marketing and promises, but no delivery record to speak of on this system.

So, consumption arguments and all that stuff aside, is the Leica S2 good value for the asking price? We just do not yet know. What we do know is that Leica is asking more for their system and components than what is equivalent (at least in specs) in the market at this point. Fine, Leica has always been pricey. Can it and will it deliver at the prices being asked? For some, it does not matter. For others it is a very valid question. Dropping $50-75K for a new, untested system that is not as fully MF capable (meaning modular), nor really the same as 35mm DSLR capabilities (taking the pluses and minuses into account), and not having any other recourse but the S-glass to use, is asking a lot. Leica says in its marketing materials that is primarily targeting a more narrow, but active group of professional photographers (fashion, wedding, studio) that they say want a more 35mm DSLR form factor, more speed than present MF systems offer, only need a few good lenses, and do not care as much about tons of MP, so 37.5 MP may be enough. That is what they appear to have built the S2 to address. They are not saying they are catering to all aspects of MF capability....at least not directly. Yet they are pricing their offering at a level that many, not everyone, think is a bit over the top. That has been the reaction from the moment Leica released the prices.

So, for the folks that have already ponied up the monies for this new, untested system, good luck and let's all hope it fulfills your wants and desires. For the folks still waiting to see what it does or does not do, hang in there, hopefully there will be more news and examples to help you decide. For those that already know it is more than they can or WANT to spend for things, no problem having thoughts and opinions also. Bottom line is that we do not have anything more than what limited and somewhat scattered information has been released on the S2. We have a lot of interest. We have a lot of folks maybe wishing/wanting something like this, but put off by the high prices, especially when compared to other things in the market that are now delivering as much or more than what the S2 promises in most areas for a lot less investment. So be it. My personal thoughts are that I love the concept. I think it may hit a sweet spot for a lot of interested photographers, pro or not. I think it still has a price tag that seems a bit excessive at this point, even for Leica. That remains to be proven, both in its output, and in the marketplace. A lot of folks want to see it succeed, maybe not just as a MF option, but because they do not want to see Leica go belly up before they get what they are seeking....be it the M9 or some new iteration of the R system.

LJ

 

[LJL]

I wouldn't say they didn't bat an eye. They just weren't too surprised as I gave them an estimate of $18-23K for the body before pricing was announced (this was my guess at that time).

This is interesting, David. As you may have had as much or more contact/experience with the S2 as anybody, even your guesstimate was a fair bit lower than what Leica actually is asking, and you are on the sales/marketing side of things. Does that not suggest that maybe Leica IS shooting a bit high on the price?

LJ

 

[dfarkas]

This is interesting, David. As you may have had as much or more contact/experience with the S2 as anybody, even your guesstimate was a fair bit lower than what Leica actually is asking, and you are on the sales/marketing side of things. Does that not suggest that maybe Leica IS shooting a bit high on the price?

LJ

LJ,

I truly believe that Leica was trying to keep the price at about $20K, but the USD just kept getting hammered. As of right now, the Euro is worth $1.43, and I think this has more to do with pricing than other factors. Yes, the price came in at the high end of my estimate at $23K, but still in range.

David

 

[Terry]

Conspicuous consumption isn't a crime here (yet) so the only real penalty is that you might engender disdain and scorn from those that, in better times, might have had a feeling more like envy. Kind of like wearing a fur coat Of course, if you bump into this, the odds are you're probably hanging around with the wrong crowd...

The phrase they are using in Iceland to describe current conspicuous consumption events is:

"that is sooooo 2007"

 

[PeterA]

Conspicuous consumption isn't a crime here (yet) so the only real penalty is that you might engender disdain and scorn from those that, in better times, might have had a feeling more like envy. Kind of like wearing a fur coat Of course, if you bump into this, the odds are you're probably hanging around with the wrong crowd...

Thanks David - so conspicuous consumption is like when someone uses their hard earned to buy something they want - which someone else doesn't buy because they dont want it - and in order to spit in the face of the person who bought something they wanted - they call it 'conspicuous'?

Where do I get the list from the comrades about what is conspicuous or not? I mean I am confused - at what price does something become conspicuous...is there kind of like a dividing line for all possible items able to be bought? Is there conspicuous consumption index that the comrades get together at the local chapter of the socialist club and kind of write lists?

do you need a license to call something conspicuous consumption ? Is there a dergee from a college that hands out degrees in being able to call something conspicuous?

Is there a level of consumption that isnt conspicuous to anyone - or is conspicuous a relative thing ?

I need to know so I can make sure that I dont upset any of the comrades in here - otherwise I may end up on a proscribed list or something - are there any salt mines in the USofA wher conspicuous consumers are sent too? IF not do the comrades intend to lease some space in Siberia to send conspicuous consumers too?

What is going to be on next years conspicuous consumption list and will this be back dated?

So Leica is kind of an evil naughty company because - they promote conspicuous consumption??


maybe the US Congress should pass a law outlawing conspicuous consumption ...I am sure a whole bunch of weenie lefty commie ratbags would be in favour of it..and a bunch of internet mongoes with half a brain would agree as well...they could sign up all the haters of evil Wall St types..who would also join in the petition..

pfffffffft - I think some of these comrades are conspicuous consumers of OXYGEN.

 

[paulmoore]

I wouldn't say they didn't bat an eye. They just weren't too surprised as I gave them an estimate of $18-23K for the body before pricing was announced (this was my guess at that time). So, pretty much everyone on my list understood the pricing and was (mostly) prepared for it. When all was said and done, one person backed out due to price, but he had expressed at the time of pre-order that he hoped the camera would be priced much lower than my esitmate. And, since pricing has come out, several others have contacted me to pre-order. So, believe it or not, the net result after pricing is positive.

From my conversations, the message is clear. If the S2 delivers the promised IQ and ergonomics/speed, it will be a big success for Leica. There are those that have wanted a system like this for a long time. The S2 has filled that void. I can unequivocally say that not one of my customers thinks of the S2 as jewlery or a status symbol. They are all interested in the performance and form factor, combined with Leica glass, both amateur and pro alike.

David

I have liked the idea of this camera since its announcement and have been looking for such a camera the past 4 years, after handling it in the flesh last month I feel that it is a camera I would like to work with, the proof will be in the files and software..until then I am batting both eyes
at the costs laid out. I understand the bad dollar, but if the euro goes down to 1.28 again in 2 months will I see it reflected in the price..I don't think so.
I have however listed a bunch of my rollei stuff on ebay to add to my war-chest in hopes that the files are what I am looking for..a camera system I can use until retirement and beyond.. again that bumper sticker comes to mind.. "life is too short to hunt with an ungly dog"

 

[stephengilbert]

Peter,

Are you serious? If you don't know what conspicuous consumption means, perhaps you should write shorter responses. If you just want to attack whoever it is you have a gripe with, why not start a new thread?

"Conspicuous consumption," according to Wikipedia, "is a term used to describe the lavish spending on goods and services acquired mainly for the purpose of displaying income or wealth. In the mind of a conspicuous consumer, such display serves as a means of attaining or maintaining social status."

Steve

 

[Jack]

Folks:

Let's keep the discussion on point and friendly. A few of you -- and I do mean more than one -- are beginning to cross the line of polite discussion and I will lock this one down if it goes any further off course. IOW, you are free to trash gear all you want, but not other members...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

That is a really good question if the euro declines and the dollar goes up will there be any adjustment to this pricing structure. Also one thing never mentioned here and maybe something Leica may want to offer is two options maybe even three is some kind of leasing program, buyout program and /or Credit card program. certainly would help a lot of folks out. The big issue for existing users or more likely Pro's is we can't hobble in with used gear for one and we have to buy body and mainly all our lenses at one time. The hobbyist can build that system up anytime they have more money for it but the Pro's really need to jump in full throttle and buy a body and at least 3 lenses to get into the system completely. So the money outlay at first for us Pro's is pretty steep like estimated about 40k or so for a couple lenses. So some kind of payment schedule would be helpful. The issue for many here is the hobbling in with Mamiya/Phase, Hassy, Sinar system is we can get a new back and body but have that option to get in used on the glass and rebuild it later on upgrading and this is how many of us including myself got in the MF market. Unfortunately for Leica is there is no used lenses to hobble in the door. So we have to outlay a lot right up front for the Pro market , not easy to do in economic stress. This maybe the area leica could actually help the Pro market out because of this hobbling in process most Pro's have to take by offering no interest loans or CC and/or leasing programs.
Frankly this is part of the sticker shock some of us are looking at is we have way to hobble in like the hobbyist can do. they can buy a body and lens and are in no hurry to get the next lens or service/accessories and all that goes with buying a new system. I would like to call that the system stress factor for lack of a better phrase. the Pro's have to deal with this but the hobbyist does not.
I'm looking at this and trying to see if there is anyway to jump in in 6 months when everything has it's check mark next to it but coming up with 25 to 40k in hard cold cash is not the easiest task to do. A finance program may help the Pro's and in turn help Leica in a huge way. BTW whoever said I thought this system was DOA is nuts , those words never came out of my mouth. This is a exciting project but us Pro's need to find a way in the door and we don't care about the jewelry buyers, they will buy whatever they want but when you target a project directly at the Pro market than you need to find a way to let them in. This idea could be one of many, the concept is there and for a lot of Pro's this is what they are after. Some obviously will not budge on it. Again need versus want and that is how most Pro's will buy. Hobbyist buy certainly on a more want than need basis and god love them because ever OEM camera company thrives on them.
Let it be very clear when i talk it comes from a Pro's mouth piece that is all I have ever known for 33 years in this business is being a Pro and having that mentality. If I had a real job outside this business and made a lot of money I would probably buy this in a NY heartbeat because i do love Leica product and owned them all. End of story

 

[Jack]

Back to the topic from my perspective:

1) Until we have the product in market, this entire thread is all speculation.

2) The "value" of the system will be based on the end user's ability to afford it offset by their view of the quality of file and/or convenience/ease-of-use and/or feature sets the combined system provides.

3) The cost will eliminate some percentage of potential users regardless of how good they think the system is or performs. Others will buy it regardless of cost or performance because it is Leica.

4) Leica has historically made first-rate cameras and lenses, and we have no reason to think the S2 will be anything less than history indicates.

5) New releases from Leica have not been free of operational issues that needed to be sorted out, and the speed with which they react is perhaps slower than other companies, and perhaps slower than their average customer base is comfortable with. However, the fact remains Leica did work diligently to address those issues and did eventually provide acceptable solutions for most (not all) of their customers.

Given the above, I suspect there will be enough early adopters of the S2 that initial supply of hardware will be limited for several months. I also suspect that a significant percentage of Leica's potential customers will NOT be early adopters and will wait poised on the sidelines to see how the system performs before taking the plunge.

Finally, given the recently stated pricing being roughly 50% higher than original estimates and 50% higher than other similar options, I suspect there is a significant percentage of potential users that have crossed it off their short list. And some of those are obviously not too happy they had to cross it off for that reason...

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Guy, you have to write the longest paragraphs ever man! :ROTFL:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Tell me about it the brain starts and those two fingers just won't stop for anything

 

[dfarkas]

Guy,

Thanks for bringing this up. Leica will be making recommendations of leasing companies. In the meantime, we (Dale Photo) have contacted three seperate leasing companies who are very interested in writing leases on the S2.

I'm a big believer in leasing for business. You've been to our lab and seen the large printing machines we have. Each one is $250K (makes the S2 look inexpensive...). Each paper magazine costs $5K (we have 14... for one machine!). We lease this equipment. Most businesses that have a large capital expenditure do the same, whether (to use Jono's example) you are a truck driver who has to buy a $100K truck, a pro lab that has to spend $500K on printing machines, or a photographer that is looking to get into a $50K camera system.

From a business perspective, you can spread the cost of the system out over 2, 3, or 4 years, paying monthly. The entire monthly payment can be written off (interest and depreciation). Contrary to some confusion, you do own the equipment if you opt for a FMV or $1 buyout lease. I've heard so many people reply to my suggestion of leasing with "I don't like to rent my gear. I prefer to own it." So, generally, these kinds of leases work differently than car leasing where you return the car after 3 years.

Leasing is a great option for the pro or rental studio that can use incoming monthly revenue to pay for a new system, without searching through the cushions of the couch or donning the ski mask in August. Most leases can be approved within 24 hours and only require a one-page application to be filled out. Usually, no tax returns or bank statements are necessary. So, the process can be pretty simple.

David

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks David for bringing that up. Yes my ski masks designs are getting old and the banks are starting to point me out. LOL

The Kids already hit the couch cushions

 

[dfarkas]

Thanks David for bringing that up. Yes my ski masks designs are getting old and the banks are starting to point me out. LOL

The Kids already hit the couch cushions

Do you have the ones with those flowery prints that were popular in the 70's? :ROTFL:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No but that maybe a good idea. LOL

 

[carstenw]

1) Until we have the product in market, this entire thread is all speculation.

2) The "value" of the system will be based on the end user's ability to afford it offset by their view of the quality of file and/or convenience/ease-of-use and/or feature sets the combined system provides.

3) The cost will eliminate some percentage of potential users regardless of how good they think the system is or performs. Others will buy it regardless of cost or performance because it is Leica.

4) Leica has historically made first-rate cameras and lenses, and we have no reason to think the S2 will be anything less than history indicates.

5) New releases from Leica have not been free of operational issues that needed to be sorted out, and the speed with which they react is perhaps slower than other companies, and perhaps slower than their average customer base is comfortable with. However, the fact remains Leica did work diligently to address those issues and did eventually provide acceptable solutions for most (not all) of their customers.

6) The value of money is not the same for everyone. For someone with easy access to money, the value of the S2 may be significantly higher. Some people speak of the S2 as if it has a fixed value/cost ratio, which isn't true.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Just a quick point on leasing. When you lease with a residual value of $1..you are in effect just financing the item leased. You gave up the opportunity to use accelerated depreciation to "write off" /expense the purchase. You are limited to the lease payments which is less than the depreciation at the beginning. As with any financing decision you need to look hard at the cost of money and any additional costs (insurance) that are specified . Leasing in most cases costs more. The primary benefit of leasing is that it uses the collateral established in the item to give you access to the money and then the item.

On automobiles leasing has the additional advantage of locking in your residual(at a lower than expected but guaranteed amount).

Its a fair cost of doing business and for most small businesses the only way they can get access to the financing but its expensive . This is why companies that GE use their internal financial divisions to provide leasing/financing solutions on big ticket items.

Carsten s point on the value of money being not the same for everyone is important as is the point about the value of the S2 to each person. Unfortunately if leasing is a solution to affordability.....then you will really pay a lot. Your situation maybe different check with your accountant .