Carsten, I agree but that is inferred in my point #2...
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Official USA Pricing for Leica S2
- Thread starter dfarkas
- Start date
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Roger good points. I personally would like to take the write off depreciation right off the top . Our favorite Section 179 clause with the IRS.
carstenw
Active member
Upon re-reading your point, yup, you are right
Oh well, my useless entry of the day.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Never useless.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
Conspicuous consumption will not be much of a factor in the S2 s success. The money is out there and although we were close to the edge in March ..things are getting better. In the winter I am down in Jupiter (same town as davidK and 30 miles north of David F)...this is an epicenter of conspicuous consumption. I am guilty as charged ! The trend is against it right now(and it doesn t feel right with so many people out of work ). But this wouldn t be much of a factor in my buying decision for or against.
I think a more relevant viewpoint might be the fear factor. Most people don t feel comfortable wearing a solid gold Rolex out on the street . I cover my leica red/black dots because I want to go where I want to without the fear of being mugged. So I don t think I could use the S2 as freely as my DMR or my M8s and even my Nikons are drawing too much attention. If I had an S2 I would hope most people thought I was using a Panasonic.
Now ,of course, if I was at a workshop with knowledgeable photographers..I would be showing off my latest f0.5 light sucker and marveling at the whisper thin DOF . And if you think I would go to the South Pole with a digital rebel ...well thats not going to happen.
But on serious note.....I think the general professional market is over rated as the critical customer base. The majority of professional photographers can not justify an s2 any more than they can justify the newest Phase or Hasselblads. Its just not necessary for the intended end use of the images. Rather its the select few that still get the major commercial assignments ,the celebrity wedding/event guys and those in a special class ..e.g. Salgado .
In the end the S2 will only succeed if its truly best in class for specific uses. I hope Leica focuses on those key areas of differentiation and supports them with credible evidence. Stop worrying about wether the pros can afford the system and concentrate on those photographers using DMRs,D3xs and 1DsIII s thats where the market is. (My 2cents...but I might just own an S2 someday ).
I think a more relevant viewpoint might be the fear factor. Most people don t feel comfortable wearing a solid gold Rolex out on the street . I cover my leica red/black dots because I want to go where I want to without the fear of being mugged. So I don t think I could use the S2 as freely as my DMR or my M8s and even my Nikons are drawing too much attention. If I had an S2 I would hope most people thought I was using a Panasonic.
Now ,of course, if I was at a workshop with knowledgeable photographers..I would be showing off my latest f0.5 light sucker and marveling at the whisper thin DOF . And if you think I would go to the South Pole with a digital rebel ...well thats not going to happen.
But on serious note.....I think the general professional market is over rated as the critical customer base. The majority of professional photographers can not justify an s2 any more than they can justify the newest Phase or Hasselblads. Its just not necessary for the intended end use of the images. Rather its the select few that still get the major commercial assignments ,the celebrity wedding/event guys and those in a special class ..e.g. Salgado .
In the end the S2 will only succeed if its truly best in class for specific uses. I hope Leica focuses on those key areas of differentiation and supports them with credible evidence. Stop worrying about wether the pros can afford the system and concentrate on those photographers using DMRs,D3xs and 1DsIII s thats where the market is. (My 2cents...but I might just own an S2 someday ).
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I think Roger you should get one and bring it to the Oregon workshop.
I need a tall guy to hold me up as we go into the Cranberry bogs. LOL
I need a tall guy to hold me up as we go into the Cranberry bogs. LOL
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Hell bud I'm flying over. LOL
Meet you at the steak house . Obviously you hit the Powerball and are buying.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
Meet you at the steak house . Obviously you hit the Powerball and are buying.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Damn I can't find Jack maybe he was serious. Quick anyone near Keeble better go check on him.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
So THATS why Jack called me for a Cash Advance earlier today. Seemed really out of character.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
See ....one positive post and the band wagon starts to load up. But they can t sell it by comparing it to the MF alternatives and making a "value proposition". It has to be based on a dream.....like Porsche . When I race home from the local Starbucks ..I am not bitching about the lack of cup holders or the abuse I take at the dealer. Its like comparing a Porsche to a Lexus. Both great cars but very different "value propositions" and customers.
Now what if I could prove...that the S2 was as durable as a hockey puck . A camera for the adventure seeker. Jack would be perfect .....they could slap some mud on him and have him by his Jeep....try that with a 'blad. Or maybe we could try MR over at Luminous Landscape shooting the Moose walking on the ridge.
PeterA
Well-known member
Conspicuous consumption is a pejorative term. Linking Leica products to 'conspicuous consumption' is a very insulting to both Leica and to those who buy Leica products.
The simpe fact of the matter is that 'value' is not an absolute measure - it is a relative measure. The one company that seems to get continuously criticised for offering jewelry etc to 'conspicuous consumers' - is Leica - and yet anyone who has used the company's equipment in analogue or digital form knows very well how good it is.
Leica doesn't make perfect anything - but Leica is entitled to charge whatever it sees fit for anything it makes, and people are entitled to buy whatever they wish to buy - without being insulted by meaningless 'tags'.
Such labels are not helpful in promoting a friendly forum - perhaps instead of using satire I could have made the poits above - try as I might though I can never achieve pefection all the time.
The simpe fact of the matter is that 'value' is not an absolute measure - it is a relative measure. The one company that seems to get continuously criticised for offering jewelry etc to 'conspicuous consumers' - is Leica - and yet anyone who has used the company's equipment in analogue or digital form knows very well how good it is.
Leica doesn't make perfect anything - but Leica is entitled to charge whatever it sees fit for anything it makes, and people are entitled to buy whatever they wish to buy - without being insulted by meaningless 'tags'.
Such labels are not helpful in promoting a friendly forum - perhaps instead of using satire I could have made the poits above - try as I might though I can never achieve pefection all the time.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
Peter
Not sure if you are referring to my post in your comments . But I was being very serious and not at all disrespectful to Leica or anyone else. My initial post started with "conspicuous consumption will have nothing to do with the success of the S2" even if I am guilty from time to time of enjoying it. Rather it follows that regardless of the pricing that (1) leica needs to understand the consumers that could actually buy the product(for whatever reason) and (2) their marketing needs to bring out the value proposition.
IMHO they have blown this to date (similar reasoning can be found in E Puts blog post).
The S2 has the potential to create a new class of cameras and set the standard for quality and durability. The form and handling ,coupled with the weather sealed body and the MF image quality is unique. This needs to be substantiated and reenforced .
The M series has this unique value proposition...its fun to use a rangefinder camera . I can make images that I wouldn t get with my DSLR and I could go on. But if I was doing a business like comparison ..I just couldn t pick a M8 ....too many better alternatives in auto focus DSLR . Its a waste of time to compare an M8 to say a D3 ...while they overlap in possible uses ..they are as different as a Porsche and a Lexus. Maybe the S2 can have this type of differentiation.
The camera seems simply too expensive for a typical working pro and the economy is working against everyone. But I am not sure the product is even designed for the typical working pro. And I am absolutely sure that the S2 isn t a good choice for the "average " working pro.
However there is a group of professionals that could make great use of the Leica S2 and it would be so clearly superior to other options ..then maybe some potential buyers might start to get it. My proposal is that leica adopt this group as the spokesmen and women for the value proposition. But and this is important (IMHO) .....they need to recognize that the money will be made from the well healed amateurs that wish to emulate professional results.
Slight divergence in my post ..regarding price.....the concern is "will there be enough potential buyers that both see the value proposition and have the funds to follow through". Without a successful S2 , Leica will suffer and bring less great product to market. I care about that.
Regarding criticizing Leica for IMHO pricing the product too high (hope I am wrong)......I have an exceptional investment in their product including a large number of R lenses. From my view ..that makes me important and a stakeholder in Leica s future. The way they handled the "end of the R" now that was disrespectful. A "half assed" leak to the LUF with no official statement from Leica.
But then all this is just maybe slightly less than humble opinion.
Not sure if you are referring to my post in your comments . But I was being very serious and not at all disrespectful to Leica or anyone else. My initial post started with "conspicuous consumption will have nothing to do with the success of the S2" even if I am guilty from time to time of enjoying it. Rather it follows that regardless of the pricing that (1) leica needs to understand the consumers that could actually buy the product(for whatever reason) and (2) their marketing needs to bring out the value proposition.
IMHO they have blown this to date (similar reasoning can be found in E Puts blog post).
The S2 has the potential to create a new class of cameras and set the standard for quality and durability. The form and handling ,coupled with the weather sealed body and the MF image quality is unique. This needs to be substantiated and reenforced .
The M series has this unique value proposition...its fun to use a rangefinder camera . I can make images that I wouldn t get with my DSLR and I could go on. But if I was doing a business like comparison ..I just couldn t pick a M8 ....too many better alternatives in auto focus DSLR . Its a waste of time to compare an M8 to say a D3 ...while they overlap in possible uses ..they are as different as a Porsche and a Lexus. Maybe the S2 can have this type of differentiation.
The camera seems simply too expensive for a typical working pro and the economy is working against everyone. But I am not sure the product is even designed for the typical working pro. And I am absolutely sure that the S2 isn t a good choice for the "average " working pro.
However there is a group of professionals that could make great use of the Leica S2 and it would be so clearly superior to other options ..then maybe some potential buyers might start to get it. My proposal is that leica adopt this group as the spokesmen and women for the value proposition. But and this is important (IMHO) .....they need to recognize that the money will be made from the well healed amateurs that wish to emulate professional results.
Slight divergence in my post ..regarding price.....the concern is "will there be enough potential buyers that both see the value proposition and have the funds to follow through". Without a successful S2 , Leica will suffer and bring less great product to market. I care about that.
Regarding criticizing Leica for IMHO pricing the product too high (hope I am wrong)......I have an exceptional investment in their product including a large number of R lenses. From my view ..that makes me important and a stakeholder in Leica s future. The way they handled the "end of the R" now that was disrespectful. A "half assed" leak to the LUF with no official statement from Leica.
But then all this is just maybe slightly less than humble opinion.
PeterA
Well-known member
Hi Roger,
No my black comedy wan't aimed at you or anyone else in particular, rather at the notion of' 'conspicuous consumption' as an accusatory stab at those foolish enough to be considering the S2 etc etc etc Your observations regarding Leica's history - especially in relation to the R line and to a lessor extent the M8 are spot on.
Some simple arithmetic defines Leica's relatively smal albeit important small target break-even regarding the S2 and gives me some hope that this fine company can survive and prosper - as like you I have significant investment in M lenses and paraphernalia.
Regarding the R line management changes a couple of years ago - pretty much negated the confidence anyone had in the R solution that was promised and touted heavilly on this and other forums. This change of approach from Leica saw me exit the DMR and sell more than 10 lenses in the R line - to switch into Hassselblad - which then halved its prices a few months later...these are sunk costs - photography is a past- time for me and just fun - representing an insignificant proportion of the total discretionary outlay on fun I am fortunate to enjoy. To call me and other people like me conspicuous consumers - with all the associated implied criticism is a grave insult in my opinion - hence my black comedic response.
The simple arithmetic is based on the assumption that Leica have invested $20M Euro in the S2 to date. At $20K per body - Leica would have to (over time) sell 1,000 bodies to break even. Assuming the average user bought 2 lenses @ 4.5K average - this would add a further $9M Euro in revenue.
I think that (over time) there would be 1000 buyers of this camera - which in previous market conditions for MFD systems equated to around 10% of the annual market for new backs. Therefore I think that Leica has a decent chance of surviving.
As for the S2 my benchmark is other DSLR type MF offers. I think that a minority of users - actually put the backs on a technical camera. Given the ergonomic advantage of a smaller lighter faster body - Leica may actually win more market share over time than many are expecting. As far as cost goes - Leica is no more expensive than other systems (where) 2 years ago - but offers many ergonomic advantages to those who thinK one can hand hold 40 megapixels.
I make no apologies to anyone for responding to the notion of conspicuous consuption and its implict and heavy handed criticism of the company and the individuals who may buy the company's products. However - rest assured if i was having a go at someone directly I would use their name - directly.
Kind regards
Pete
No my black comedy wan't aimed at you or anyone else in particular, rather at the notion of' 'conspicuous consumption' as an accusatory stab at those foolish enough to be considering the S2 etc etc etc Your observations regarding Leica's history - especially in relation to the R line and to a lessor extent the M8 are spot on.
Some simple arithmetic defines Leica's relatively smal albeit important small target break-even regarding the S2 and gives me some hope that this fine company can survive and prosper - as like you I have significant investment in M lenses and paraphernalia.
Regarding the R line management changes a couple of years ago - pretty much negated the confidence anyone had in the R solution that was promised and touted heavilly on this and other forums. This change of approach from Leica saw me exit the DMR and sell more than 10 lenses in the R line - to switch into Hassselblad - which then halved its prices a few months later...these are sunk costs - photography is a past- time for me and just fun - representing an insignificant proportion of the total discretionary outlay on fun I am fortunate to enjoy. To call me and other people like me conspicuous consumers - with all the associated implied criticism is a grave insult in my opinion - hence my black comedic response.
The simple arithmetic is based on the assumption that Leica have invested $20M Euro in the S2 to date. At $20K per body - Leica would have to (over time) sell 1,000 bodies to break even. Assuming the average user bought 2 lenses @ 4.5K average - this would add a further $9M Euro in revenue.
I think that (over time) there would be 1000 buyers of this camera - which in previous market conditions for MFD systems equated to around 10% of the annual market for new backs. Therefore I think that Leica has a decent chance of surviving.
As for the S2 my benchmark is other DSLR type MF offers. I think that a minority of users - actually put the backs on a technical camera. Given the ergonomic advantage of a smaller lighter faster body - Leica may actually win more market share over time than many are expecting. As far as cost goes - Leica is no more expensive than other systems (where) 2 years ago - but offers many ergonomic advantages to those who thinK one can hand hold 40 megapixels.
I make no apologies to anyone for responding to the notion of conspicuous consuption and its implict and heavy handed criticism of the company and the individuals who may buy the company's products. However - rest assured if i was having a go at someone directly I would use their name - directly.
Kind regards
Pete
Who cares who consumes what, and at what price?
Leica got the "jewelry" moniker because they turned serious gear into Jewlery with an endless parade of special editions, many of them meaningless excuses to gussy up a serious camera ... the latest of which is the white M8 and Safari editions. That's just a matter of taste in the stuff you buy ... but it tends to degrade it's serious functional history.
Marketing wise, Leica has to aim the S2 at the Pro market, even if the Pro market isn't the real target. You don't sell a high-end funtional product to casual users by showing casual users wearing one to a social event.
However, the notion of a mud covered S2 slung into the back of a beat-up Landrover Defender is in reality a humorous proposition. People look at used Leica gear with a magnifiying glass for any signs of use what-so-ever. At 50K for the S2 set, they'll probably start using an electron Microscope :ROTFL:
Leica got the "jewelry" moniker because they turned serious gear into Jewlery with an endless parade of special editions, many of them meaningless excuses to gussy up a serious camera ... the latest of which is the white M8 and Safari editions. That's just a matter of taste in the stuff you buy ... but it tends to degrade it's serious functional history.
Marketing wise, Leica has to aim the S2 at the Pro market, even if the Pro market isn't the real target. You don't sell a high-end funtional product to casual users by showing casual users wearing one to a social event.
However, the notion of a mud covered S2 slung into the back of a beat-up Landrover Defender is in reality a humorous proposition. People look at used Leica gear with a magnifiying glass for any signs of use what-so-ever. At 50K for the S2 set, they'll probably start using an electron Microscope :ROTFL:
ptomsu
Workshop Member
All this comes to the point again and again:
Will the S System be able to stand up against top MF systems from Phase and Hasselblad - quality wise and price wise.
I tell you one thing - I would not mind to buy into the S System immediately if
1) I would be convinced that Leica is really behind it and supprting it for at leas the next 10 years
2) I could see an S3 and S4 (upcoming models) on the horizon - even in 5 - 8 years
3) I could have a TS solution which is satisfying enough for me and coming close to a tech camera + digiback solution like Cambo WRS with P45+ and Schneider 35mm
4) There would be support of this system in C1Pro or Lightroom.
I would expect much easier handling, carrying etc of this camera system compared to existing MF systems. And I would expect some 60-80MP in one of the coming S3 or S4s ....
It is as simple!
Will the S System be able to stand up against top MF systems from Phase and Hasselblad - quality wise and price wise.
I tell you one thing - I would not mind to buy into the S System immediately if
1) I would be convinced that Leica is really behind it and supprting it for at leas the next 10 years
2) I could see an S3 and S4 (upcoming models) on the horizon - even in 5 - 8 years
3) I could have a TS solution which is satisfying enough for me and coming close to a tech camera + digiback solution like Cambo WRS with P45+ and Schneider 35mm
4) There would be support of this system in C1Pro or Lightroom.
I would expect much easier handling, carrying etc of this camera system compared to existing MF systems. And I would expect some 60-80MP in one of the coming S3 or S4s ....
It is as simple!
carstenw
Active member
I think some of your points are unanswerable. After the launch of the S2 (some time after, at least several weeks, more likely several months, not immediately after), you might be able to judge for yourself if it will be successful. If it is, then I think that points 1) and 2) look good. 3) will be answered when the T/S lens is out, but keep in mind that it will just be the one lens, not a series. 4) is already known: Lightroom will support the S2 directly. The question is how well, since Lightroom is weak on white balance, sharpness and noise.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Not sure if we discussed that in this thread - it was WRT full frame image circle on the new H3D2-60 in combination with the HCD28 lens.
The answer is - have a look on the Hasselblad site and their documentation: all HCD lenses (28 and 35-90) will not deliver the full frame of the 60MP back - period!
This is really unfortunate, as Hasselblad obviously made their FF decision some 3 years ago, when they did not know about the next generation sensor sizes, or simply were ignorant. So either there will be another "new" 28 lens which will support the larger image circle or simply Phase has a clear advantage here with their Mamiya solution and the P65+
Also I can tell you that I tested Phocus - and of course I am not a very experienced user now after playing with it for several hours - but I find this SW on the level of C1Pro some 4 years ago - PERIOD!
This is really not amusing - especially if one reads through all the nice stories behind and around Hasselblad!
What finally counts for me is execution - and I do not see execution anymore in the Hasselblad camp - rather fighting competition and closing the camp :thumbdown:
The answer is - have a look on the Hasselblad site and their documentation: all HCD lenses (28 and 35-90) will not deliver the full frame of the 60MP back - period!
This is really unfortunate, as Hasselblad obviously made their FF decision some 3 years ago, when they did not know about the next generation sensor sizes, or simply were ignorant. So either there will be another "new" 28 lens which will support the larger image circle or simply Phase has a clear advantage here with their Mamiya solution and the P65+
Also I can tell you that I tested Phocus - and of course I am not a very experienced user now after playing with it for several hours - but I find this SW on the level of C1Pro some 4 years ago - PERIOD!
This is really not amusing - especially if one reads through all the nice stories behind and around Hasselblad!
What finally counts for me is execution - and I do not see execution anymore in the Hasselblad camp - rather fighting competition and closing the camp :thumbdown:
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Okay just wanted to add this in the mix.I did have a 45 minute conversation yesterday with a leica executive and mainly it was all about the S2 . I can't get into all the details but a couple things of note maybe worth bringing up. Data and samples are coming very soon so this will gives us more meat to discuss obviously on the S2. I maybe also be underestimating it's IQ and with that the cost of entry for the IQ. This remains to be seen and evaluated but you folks know I am a tough sell but I did feel better after I hung up the phone. If that means anything but we need more meat to play with and discuss here as well and obviously that has been lacking. Hopefully soon this data and images will hit the forum and i am on the short list to get that data up on the forum for our members.
Actually I'm confident that the S2 system will beat a lot of (or maybe the most of) the MF lenses on a MF camera with a 39 or 40MP back (unless you crop down the S2 files to a 4:3 image format). If you use your digiback not just with MF lenses but also with Digtars or Rodenstock HRs you'll see how important very good glass is. Epecially regarding corner sharpness the smaller chip size is an advantage here IMO.
Add some better ISO, (maybe) better and faster AF and (maybe) better usability (handling wise not necessarily workflow wise) compared to a MF camera ... and the S2 truly has some strengths.
Whether this will be enough to establish a successful system remains to be seen.