New here: a few low-tech pics while waiting for my CFV-39...

[Guy Mancuso]

I was using reverse psychology.

 

[tashley]

We'll see... part of this will depend on what I can realise for the Phase gear...

A point of clarification: I think I've expressed a lot of frustration with the setup but I do also think that in many ways it is very fine. I know pretty well what the technical limitations are so it is now clear to me why the Phase kit can't do certain things (why there's no live view, why tethered shooting is so underwhelming, etc etc etc) but I don't doubt that for pure IQ, regardless of inconvenience, it's the amongst the very best there is. It's just clear to me, now, that I will never like the way it works even if I learn to get the best from it. And I need to like my tools.

That said I do enjoy the process of using the Cambo setup. The fact that there's no way of seeing what I'm going to get accurately, or of focussing other than by distance estimation, hasn't ruined that pleasure for me.

Hmmm. Haaaa....

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Interesting I love tethered with C1 myself. Used it all day yesterday and clients love it.

 

[Jack]

That said I do enjoy the process of using the Cambo setup. The fact that there's no way of seeing what I'm going to get accurately, or of focussing other than by distance estimation, hasn't ruined that pleasure for me.

Get a cheap netbook with a FW400 port, tether to it, take a frame, review the image, adjust as needed, take another frame to check, adjust if necessary, wait for your light and take the keeper, keep it and toss the test shots in the trash. And then remind yourself we never had it that good with large format and film.

OTOH, if you cannot focus your camera well untethered and/or if live-view is so important to you, then maybe you'd be happier with an autoeverything DSLR with live-view?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Bud we never had it that good with Polaroid.

 

[PeterA]

it all depends on what people like in the experience of using their gear. I have a lot of sympathy for tashley's view - whilst the IQ is there in MFD systems - there is a lot of 'hassle' factor in getting it - relative to smaller formats.

Jack's comment re - we never had it so good with LF film is spot on. yes MFD is 'better' than LF film - but is the workflow 'better' than say 35mm?

Two different mindsets and comparison points here. Me? Well I am over MFD for my purposes - except in artec or Alpa guise. The MFD version of SLR camerta systems are just nowhere near as user friendly as 35m rangefinder or SLR.

Sadly the resale value of this stuff is now maybe 50 cents in the dollar - on a good day. So I will hang on to it all as museum works - laughing at my gear head enthusiasm - which is now cured. Hopefully replaced by a more important thing - using stuff that works for me and making photographs!

 

[Jack]

Jack's comment re - we never had it so good with LF film is spot on. yes MFD is 'better' than LF film - but is the workflow 'better' than say 35mm?

That was kind of my point Pete: Large format workflow has *NEVER* been easier than using smaller formats; we've always had to make concessions on convenience to get the best image quality, so we're right where we always have been. Maybe I am being harsh, but IMO if you want simplicity and convenience, shoot with an auto-everything DSLR; if you want the best IQ you can get, you need to learn to live and work with the tools that will deliver it.

My .02,

 

[tashley]

Get a cheap netbook with a FW400 port, tether to it, take a frame, review the image, adjust as needed, take another frame to check, adjust if necessary, wait for your light and take the keeper, keep it and toss the test shots in the trash. And then remind yourself we never had it that good with large format and film.

OTOH, if you cannot focus your camera well untethered and/or if live-view is so important to you, then maybe you'd be happier with an autoeverything DSLR with live-view?

Yup, all good suggestions Jack and I do indeed have a 5DII for certain kinds of work - as I believe do you? Though I very rarely use it with 'auto-everything'. In general I prefer it with manually focussed R glass.

It's not really about not being able to focus the camera untethered on the Phamiya - usually in I'm quite good at that, so I only need to shoot tethered when trying to focus on the stamen rather than the petal, for example. It's more to do with wanting closer control over focus in the field with the Cambo. Of course I could put a ground glass accessory on but that means exposing the sensor to dust for every new composition.

Nope. I hold by my original contention. Whether I use my current generation Unibody Macbook Pro or my RAM'd up Mac Pro desktop machine, tethered shooting is a cludge. And in any event I was only using tethered shooting as an example of the disconnect between the marketing blurb and the reality of using the system.

As you wisely observe, to get the extra distance (quality) one has to go the extra mile (effort). But the preference for doing so without leg irons is what is making me consider the S2.

It will be very interesting to see if it really does offer a better mix of MF format quality with DSLR-style ergonomics. If so, I will almost certainly make the switch. I am sure I won't be alone.

Best

T

 

[Jack]

Yup, all good suggestions Jack and I do indeed have a 5DII for certain kinds of work - as I believe do you?

Mine is a 1Ds3, but absolutely -- the MF DB is *NOT* ideal for all situations I photograph, so I have a DSLR...

It's not really about not being able to focus the camera untethered on the Phamiya - usually in I'm quite good at that, so I only need to shoot tethered when trying to focus on the stamen rather than the petal, for example. It's more to do with wanting closer control over focus in the field with the Cambo. Of course I could put a ground glass accessory on but that means exposing the sensor to dust for every new composition.

Good sliding backs leave the sensor covered when composing on the GG so you can toss this little complaint aside...

Nope. I hold by my original contention. Whether I use my current generation Unibody Macbook Pro or my RAM'd up Mac Pro desktop machine, tethered shooting is a cludge. And in any event I was only using tethered shooting as an example of the disconnect between the marketing blurb and the reality of using the system.

Fine, but you aint ever going to get usable un-tethered live-view from a CCD sensor regardless of who builds it, so no use complaining it doesn't exist on current backs. You'll have to wait for the first CMOS MF back before that becomes a reality feature.

As you wisely observe, to get the extra distance (quality) one has to go the extra mile (effort). But the preference for doing so without leg irons is what is making me consider the S2.

Then by all means get it! But that will leave you up shyte creek when you want to use a tech camera, no?

And FWIW, I personally don't see our present situation as leg irons. I rather see it as simply a more complex tool requiring a bit more facility than shooting with a CMOS DSLR...

Cheers,

 

[Don Libby]

I've stayed out of this for several reasons but figured what the heck...

I completely stopped using a DSLR shortly after making the move to MF for my landscape work keeping the DSLR for those occasions where I needed faster focus and burst shutters such as wildlife. My progression through MF has taken me through the Mamiya and Phase AFD bodies and associated lens to the Cambo WRS kit I currently use.

I noticed that I slowed down as I moved through the various systems to where I am today. I have to say that I personally find using the Cambo a real joy to use. Is it clunky? Yes. Is it slow? Yes. Does it get me what I want? Oh hell yes? Do I feel that I have leg irons on by using this kit? Nope - no way.

I do not feel I need live preview nor I have a need to shoot tethered - but that's me...

I don't use a viewfinder (which has already been discussed previously) however I do have and occasionally use a groundglass. My "system" of image might not be "perfect" however it works for me and that's what matters in the end. Your shooting style must fit what/how you shoot.

Does shooting a technical camera slow you down? Yes. However I personally feel the slowness is a good thing.

This last trip we were on took us to the Arizona Strip. We drove out on this "road" for 40 miles and found 3 spots that either overlooked the Colorado River or the Grand Canyon or both. It took us over 5 hours to do the round-trip drive which does not include shooting time. I took maybe a total of 8 images with the Cambo during this time.

I also used the 1DS II in an attempt to capture IR (pre-conversion using a filter). This process was in many ways just as slow as using MF as I had to remove the IR filter before every shot to properly compose and focus the replace the filter and shoot.

No matter what or how you shoot MF it's just slower than shooting a DSLR while at the same time it's much faster than shooting LF. Large format isn't for everyone just as medium format isn't for everyone while at the same time 35mm DSLR seems to be a fit for most people. I shoot with 3 different cameras, G10 for mainly blog snapshot images; 1DsII for color IR and lightning; and of course the Cambo WRS1000/P45+ combo for all the rest. Each tool has a specific purpose and each fills it.

There's been a heck of a lot written on this within the past couple days/weeks part is due to the expected release of the next new wonder camera that promises to do everything but print the image (written tongue in cheek) and I think that has people thinking they need the next newest biggest baddest camera system. Reminds me of computers 10 years ago when new releases were offered on a weekly basis and you could never keep up.

I've had my say and will now go back to work on my images.

Tim - good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Don

It also seems a shame to have taken this so off the original topic......

 

[Jack]

FWIW, I think M.R. sums it up very well in this recent article on wants, needs and affords: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/want-need-afford.shtml

 

[tashley]

Yup, that was a good article...

@ Jack, I don't think we disagree really, just a difference of emphasis. And you're right about the tech camera shyte creek, which is why I'm thinking twice and was recently asking about possible dates for a new Phamiya body.

@ Don out of interest which GG do you use? From memory it's the interchangeable: I don't think Cambo make a slider, which is what I'd love for the reason Jack highlights. I tried the Silvestri FlexCam a while back but after sliding, it seemed to me that the back didn't register perfectly and so the focus was always off. A good sliding back would be a treat. If I'm right in my memory of your setup, do you get any problems wiht dust on the sensor? BTW I have been using the P45+/Cambo as a point and shoot for the last few days: when it's sunny, I use F16 and 1/125th at ISO 100 or thereabouts and focus at 5 metres, use the bubbles on the Cambo and bang away. It's really, really fun!

T

 

[carstenw]

You already know this, so just for the record: the Sinar arTec solves this.

 

[Don Libby]

@ Don out of interest which GG do you use? From memory it's the interchangeable: I don't think Cambo make a slider, which is what I'd love for the reason Jack highlights. I tried the Silvestri FlexCam a while back but after sliding, it seemed to me that the back didn't register perfectly and so the focus was always off. A good sliding back would be a treat. If I'm right in my memory of your setup, do you get any problems wiht dust on the sensor? BTW I have been using the P45+/Cambo as a point and shoot for the last few days: when it's sunny, I use F16 and 1/125th at ISO 100 or thereabouts and focus at 5 metres, use the bubbles on the Cambo and bang away. It's really, really fun!

T

Hi Tim - I have the WDS-619 groundglass and WDS616 focusing hood.

I'm in totally agreement with you on how nice it would be to have a slider for the WRS only I just never see it coming to pass for several reasons mainly it would really screw up the rear shifting functions as they are currently configured.

I also use the short barrel Schneider 120mm lens which means every time I use it I need to remove the back and place the spacer on then remount the back; which depending on the conditions can be a royal PIA however it is a good lens.

I haven't encountered dust problems with the sensor; I always make sure I have it pointing down and I carry a blow bulb that I'll use just to be sure. (As a side note regarding dust and dirt - I've had much more trouble with the IF filter on my DSLR which will soon be eliminated.)

I've tried the doing the same thing with my Cambo\P45+ combo - that is turning it into the worlds most expensive point -n-shoot and totally agree about the fun factor.

I've sold all my Mamiya lenses and Phase AFD and shoot strictly with the Cambo\P45+ for all my landscape work. I'll be shortly bringing back the 1DsII for color IR work and have a G10 for snapshots; that's what I'm hauling around when I go out - I can see me not using or selling (in time) everything but the Cambo. However that's just my 2¢ worth.

Don

There's no doubt in my mind that there's something better out there but at what price? I currently have a kit that in many ways meets or exceeds my needs for a very reasonable cost both in time and money and for these reasons I'm sold on the WRS. Again what works for one will not necessarily work for another.

Don

 

[Jack]

@ Jack, I don't think we disagree really, just a difference of emphasis. And you're right about the tech camera shyte creek, which is why I'm thinking twice and was recently asking about possible dates for a new Phamiya body.

On disagreement, I think at the very least we have differing levels of expectation from our gear :toocool:

Let me clarify a few things. I do not hate my Mamiya body as you infer you do, so I think we disagree on that. No it isn't perfect, but I can get the job done with it and pretty darn easily. And to date, I've not seen or used any other MF digital platform I like better overall. Next, I am not disappointed that my Phase back does not have live view -- yes live view would be a welcome feature, but I happen to know it is a limitation of un-tethered CCD sensors and I also know that I do not like the look CMOS sensors deliver when compared to CCD. So peaking for myself, I am grateful for what I have and what it can do rather than upset about its shortcomings and the things it cannot do.

Cheers,

 

[Don Libby]

I share the same feelings as Jack however I don't really care that my P45+ doesn't have live view. I for one don't want to give up the IQ I get with my current sensor; if I wanted to use live view I'd move back(wards) to the 1Ds III.

Shooting medium format isn't easy especially when you add the effort of a technical camera - but look at the rewards.

Don

 

[tashley]

On disagreement, I think at the very least we have differing levels of expectation from our gear :toocool:

Let me clarify a few things. I do not hate my Mamiya body as you infer you do, so I think we disagree on that. No it isn't perfect, but I can get the job done with it and pretty darn easily. And to date, I've not seen or used any other MF digital platform I like better overall. Next, I am not disappointed that my Phase back does not have live view -- yes live view would be a welcome feature, but I happen to know it is a limitation of un-tethered CCD sensors and I also know that I do not like the look CMOS sensors deliver when compared to CCD. So peaking for myself, I am grateful for what I have and what it can do rather than upset about its shortcomings and the things it cannot do.

Cheers,

In which case you are a lucky man as well as a wise one my friend!
:thumbs:

 

[tashley]

I share the same feelings as Jack however I don't really care that my P45+ doesn't have live view. I for one don't want to give up the IQ I get with my current sensor; if I wanted to use live view I'd move back(wards) to the 1Ds III.

Shooting medium format isn't easy especially when you add the effort of a technical camera - but look at the rewards.

Don

You're right about the rewards!

I have found using movements fairly infrequently so if the S2 lives up to the hype it might well be a better tool for my needs but, let's wait and see. The Cambo is pretty darned good as we both agree!

Thanks for the answer Don.

Tim

 

[Don Libby]

Tim

No movements? Must be the difference in our locations as I routinely use movements with all my lenses (except the 24).

You are most welcome! Just promise to let me know in advance if you actually decide to rid yourself of that Cambo gear so I have pick thought it...

Don

 

[Jack]

In which case you are a lucky man as well as a wise one my friend!
:thumbs:

:ROTFL: Actually, I think it's just some pragmatism that comes with age!

Cheers mate,