Nikon D300/M8 test

[Guy Mancuso]

Well i ran out very early this morning to just see how things look. This first off is a casual test. All I am really trying to do is see how the D300 looks to the gold standard of the M8. I love my M8's and I still it and the DMR are still the best image makers out there but I need to know if I can get by with this D300 for certain things. So for me it is not about sharpness and such but more about how I can process the D300 to match more like the M8. Now we can speculate along the way that is only natural and compare. But color is important and saturation and DR so that is really what I want to look at. I have yet to look at these files so we will go and see what they look like to each oyher . This is very early light so right off the bat things will look warm. The only thing I will adjust for now is exposure. I shot three camera's one M8 with a 28 cron and another with a 75 cron both extremely good and new designs from Leica. Great lenses . Than i shot the D300 with the 17-35 and first off this is a great lens but I think there new 14-24 and 24-70 may compare better with there new Nano crystal coatings but so be it this is what I have and it is a classic lens from Nikon really now slouch whatsoever.

Than I used the New Zeiss ZF 85mm 1.4 and the New Zeiss 50mm ZF 1.4 both very nicely built lenses the 50mm is a bit easier to focus but i did okay with the 85 buying a new screen today from Katz Eye. Than I shot the 24mm shift which deserves it's on thread. This sucker rocks my boat big time already . Also I shot all camera's on AWB and A mode so meter's will be slightly different and will only adjust for that D300 ISO 200 ,M8 ISO 160. These are there recommended ISO's from each company so that is what we will go with.

I shot the next two images at 5.6 i did not play around to much with wide open stuff , although there are some. i just want to see what is going on and how different they maybe. Honestly they both look good but I have some concerns on the Nikon and blocking up.

Okay Leica first 28 cron
Nikon with 17-35 at the almost same framing.

BTW no one that I know have has done this , so if you want to link to other forums fine with me these are test images and not worried about it

 

[Guy Mancuso]

First off on casual looking the Nikon as more saturation out of the gate and this part can be a concern to me . It could be a touch too much and also it maybe the difference in DR. This may take some time and I have a funeral to go to but just hang in there and check back later also. I shot a fair amount of images and shot a bunch of Nikon only too

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Same setup Leica than Nikon

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Leica 75 cron than the Zeiss 85 both at 5.6 I moved so not precise the framing

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I moved too much. Have better

 

[Guy Mancuso]

75 cron and Zeiss 85 at 5.6 . But I did miss on the Zeiss with focus slightly. Tough lens to focus , need a better screen and i can manual focus better than most

 

[helenhill]

Hi Guy
HOW FUN .....PURRfect / an M8 - D300 Showdown / Get out Your Pistols :ROTFL:
Overall I much prefer the ground, dirt. & shadow tonalities with the M8
In the 'Saguaro Ridge ' series IMHO the Leica blows away the D300 in terms of detail & color shading in the backdrop of the mountainside
The 'Parking In Rear' set They both look GREAT....But which Plastic Tent is more TRUE to color ?

the D300 looks like it does a Fantastic Job however the Leica seems to have more subtlety in range of tones & shadows /BUT Is the additional $3000.00
worth it in Subtlety having the Leica
or a tweak here & there in PP & the D300 is Magic ?
Do I have a red dot on my Forehead ?
All the Best, helen

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Now at F2 for both Leica 75 and zeiss 85

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Typical warmer Leica and cooler Nikon

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Weird the AF point was not on target but I like it anyway. 85 at f2

 

[glenerrolrd]

Guy This is similar to what I see using the D3 and the M8. I could use some help on the correct terminology.... but the thing that creates the pop for me is the "tone separation" . If you look at the beige fabric in the tent shots...you can see it easily . Now maybe this is dynamic range (since those are highlights) but I think you would see the same thing in a mid tone . I see it in reds and blues on the major league uniforms. Saturation....in the initial pair I think the saturation difference you mentioned is really in the exposure. With a D3 image I generally have to add luminousity,saturation and contrast to get the D3 file to look like the M8 file. Now that said once its been worked ...the only real difference I can see is in the tone separation. Nice post .

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well the tones will get affected by the DR and as you can see there is a DR difference . I have more so we will keep looking at this but I think what you are describing and what we are seeing is some crunching for lack of a better word in the Nikon tones. Like 400 millions of colors compared to 200 million colors. Something we need to figure out but good observation. There is also a kelvin difference too. What I will do later is start correcting to match the M8 than we can pick up what we will need. That should give us a good clue but really not bad so far. The Nikon looks pretty good

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hi Guy
HOW FUN .....PURRfect / an M8 - D300 Showdown / Get out Your Pistols :ROTFL:
Overall I much prefer the ground, dirt. & shadow tonalities with the M8
In the 'Saguaro Ridge ' series IMHO the Leica blows away the D300 in terms of detail & color shading in the backdrop of the mountainside
The 'Parking In Rear' set They both look GREAT....But which Plastic Tent is more TRUE to color ?

the D300 looks like it does a Fantastic Job however the Leica seems to have more subtlety in range of tones & shadows /BUT Is the additional $3000.00
worth it in Subtlety having the Leica
or a tweak here & there in PP & the D300 is Magic ?
Do I have a red dot on my Forehead ?
All the Best, helen

Actually very good points Helen, they really are and as a buyer of gear you sit and wonder exactly what you said. Can i fix this to match that and such and is it worth it. Great question, i think no question the M8 is better but can we get close is the real key. That is something hopefully we will figure out. More coming just stuff going on around here today. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Just a quicky until I get back , here is the 24 shift wide open but I threw the shift out on purpose for the effect. Pretty cool

 

[KurtKamka]

Excellent test, Guy.

Roger, can you explain how you are adjusting for luminosity. I'm looking for just a smidge more clarity in my Nikon files. If I can get it, I'll be very pleased.

Kurt

 

[vieri]

Guy, first of all thank you for putting this out for all of us to see - I shall do the same, M8 vs D300 vs D3 with some Istanbulian background rather than cactuses though

One note for everyone to keep in mind when talking about details afar, sharpness, DR and the like.

D300: 12 MP on a 1.5x crop;
M8: 10 MP on a 1.33x crop.

Much larger photosites on the M8, which means more DR & less noise (at least, in theory); slightly longer lens on the D300 which means less DOF, though compensated some by the smaller sensor.

Both this affects comparison when looking closely into the files.

As well, for colors, contrast and saturation, are this RAWs or JPGs and if RAWs (I think you always use RAW, if I am remembering this correctly) how did you process them? It would be interesting to see files opened in the same converter (Adobe) and with the exact same settings - otherwise, evidently RAW conversion has a huge part in what we are seeing here and influences in a big way the result when coming down to colors, saturation etc.

I know this is a quick & dirty test, just take my notes as an answer to those in the thread who are using these to establish a definite difference between the cameras

Thanks again Guy, very good stuff and very informative as always!

 

[dfarkas]

What I see here as with my own files is that the Leica images have more micro-contrast and micro-detail with smoother tonality gradations. The Nikon tends to smear small details just a tad. Less than Canon, but more than Leica, who doesn't use an AA filter. The Zeiss ZF glass is good, but I think the Leica M glass is better, especially the 75 APO and 28 ASPH. Overall, both cameras are producing nice results.

Of course, these are at 900 pixel web-sized images. I think we need some big stuff to really see the devil in the details.

David

 

[neils]

Guy, great test. I'm have some of the same questions as others.

Is the D300 set to Standard or Neutral color? I always keep my D3 at Neutral and bump change later if I want in NX. Standard is too punchy for me. Don't why I'd ever use Vivid, Fog maybe? Maybe some DR is lost in Standard vs what Neutral would bring out?

NX for the D300, C1 for the M8 or ACR/CS3 for both? We all know how much of a difference that makes.

Where/when/how is USM set?

Keep going ;-)

Neil

 

[glenerrolrd]

Excellent test, Guy.

Roger, can you explain how you are adjusting for luminosity. I'm looking for just a smidge more clarity in my Nikon files. If I can get it, I'll be very pleased.

Kurt

I use Lightroom and in the Presence area of the Develop Module I work with the three alternatives. Clarity ..which I understand works similar to the unsharp mask techniques in photoshop. This increases the contrast in the midtones. Then I use luminousity which increases the intensity of most of the colors but doesn t seem to affect skin tones much. To see both effects I look at say a face at 100%. If you use too much clarity you create tone separation that looks artificial. Too much luminousity and the colors start to block up. You can adjust luminousity by color farther down in the window. This is purely a trial and error process for me. The insight it gives me on the images is that the Leica images are pretty strong without adjustment and its easy to over do it. The Nikon images are lower contrast,less saturated and IMHO dull without working the Presence sliders. With that said ...they can look great when they are adjusted. I am sure I am off ..but I just built a import profile for Nikon Baseball and I have an pretty good starting point. If you don t use Lightroom you should try it...I find the eyedropper for both tone and luminosity particularly useful for adjusting and image. Want the Red more brilliant...point click and pull up luminousity..it exactly matches the colors in the uniform...pulling up both RED and ORANGE. I do believe I can do better by using the nikon software but thats more time .

 

[woodyspedden]

Hey Guy

Thanks for doing the work for all of us. Great stuff.

I think the saturation issues are a function of the raw processing. I am working on presets for both my D300 and the D3 and will post results once I am happy.

I find all of the 85 shots slightly out of focus which is what I believe is affecting the appearance of the mountains in the background. As can be seen from the M8 with the 75 cron there should be loads of detail at 5.6. I am not sure of the zeiss 85 1.4. It gets either rave reviews or mediocre reviews depending on who is using it and how well they can focus. Wish you were closer by and I could loan you my extremely good copy of the 70-200 and do that comparison with the 75 Cron which of course is one of leica's sharpest.

All in all i think the nikons are capable of really great files and as all of us learn to use them better will add significantly to the arsenal of tools we have.

Woody