D3 Color Calibration settings in ACR

[Greg Seitz]

Hi Jono,

Those clouds in the Leica photo are going to give the scene more blue light so part of the difference in this example has to do with that. It would be very interesting to see comparisons under the same lighting but I suspect you're right that there is a difference in the sensors. Just guessing but perhaps the Nikon sensors are more sensitive to red or less sensitive to blue.

You may already know this, but regarding Aperture 2, have you tried using the the selective color editing? Rather than being stuck with the default color hues, you can now use the color picker in the Color Adjustments pane to point at the color you want to adjust and tweak the hue, saturation, and luminance. I've found this makes it really easy to control the look of things since you can make quite subtle adjustments with this technique.

If you don't mind sending me the RAW for your photo I'd like to see if I can tweak it a bit via Aperture.

Check out http://www.mediafire.com for free hosting where you can post RAW files for others to download. It's much nicer than yousendit since your files don't have download limits and stick around as long as you want them to.

Thanks,

Greg

 

[Guy Mancuso]

For those that want to really see what is going on shoot a Greytag Color card and compare. Which i may do with the D300 , this will help see the changes made

 

[jonoslack]

For those that want to really see what is going on shoot a Greytag Color card and compare. Which i may do with the D300 , this will help see the changes made

HI Guy
that really misses the point - of course, when shooting a colour card you must first do a white balance, and make sure the lighting is even. The point about this issue is that the lighting around sunset is very mixed - you could of course do a grey card, but then you don't have any evening light!

 

[jonoslack]

HI Greg

Hi Jono,

Those clouds in the Leica photo are going to give the scene more blue light so part of the difference in this example has to do with that. It would be very interesting to see comparisons under the same lighting but I suspect you're right that there is a difference in the sensors. Just guessing but perhaps the Nikon sensors are more sensitive to red or less sensitive to blue.

Hi Greg - actually, I don't think those clouds have much of an effect - they are all behind the scene, and the sky above was blue - but I agree, it'd be interesting to do a comparison in the same light - I'll see what can be done!

What I have noticed with the D3 is that the white balance is all over the place in quite consistent lighting (I went out today in slightly overcast conditions, and the WB ranged between 4200 and 6000 - the Leica would have been much more consistently around 5000. The problem's really seem to start when there is greenery AND sky involved.

I've been here before with the D2x, and like all of us, I'm a wiser bunny these days! Increasingly I'm thinking that it's something to do with the WB (which is, incidentally, picked up identically in ACR and Aperture).

You may already know this, but regarding Aperture 2, have you tried using the the selective color editing? Rather than being stuck with the default color hues, you can now use the color picker in the Color Adjustments pane to point at the color you want to adjust and tweak the hue, saturation, and luminance. I've found this makes it really easy to control the look of things since you can make quite subtle adjustments with this technique.

Yes - it's great, but I don't want to be tweaking colours on 200 photos every time I go out for a day (it never was neccesary with the M8, nor with the Olympus cameras, but it WAS necessary with the D200 and D2x).

If you don't mind sending me the RAW for your photo I'd like to see if I can tweak it a bit via Aperture.

I can tweak it - the problem is not whether one can 'make it right' or not (right, after all is pretty subjective), the problem is that it's obviously wrong in the first place, and that I'm absolutely certain there is not a consistent way of dealing with it.

It may be that it becomes necessary to abandon AWB (that's my next step), which isn't a problem, but it's a bother.

I don't really want to get into a competition about how to process one single file, when I know that whatever one comes up with it won't be compatible with other files (which are often right in the first place). If you really want a go I can post it for you.

Check out http://www.mediafire.com for free hosting where you can post RAW files for others to download. It's much nicer than yousendit since your files don't have download limits and stick around as long as you want them to.

Thanks,

Greg

I can host files okay if necessary. Good tip though.

 

[jonoslack]

I can see a difference between the first shot and all the others.I think though that the first shot has the benefit of a darker sky in top right with the clouds and more shadows lower left as the shooting pposition is different to all the others posted - how much difference would this make to perception about colour and kelvin? hmm I dont know..but I see a definit contrast difference between first and all others as well..

HI Peter
As I said to Greg - the first shot was only shown as an indication that it's possible to get good colour 'out of the box'. In fact, the building is almost entirely lit by a strong slanting sun, the sky above was mainly blue in both cases - the clouds are all behind the scene as it were, and I don't think they contributed very much.

But you weren't supposed to be comparing the first with the others, but the others with each other!

 

[robsteve]

Jono:

When I shoot scenics I will tend to put the camera (DMR, M8) on daylight and deal with it in processing of the RAW files. This gives you a starting point as if you were shooting slide film and the AWB is not adjusting out all that nice warm evening light.

Robert

 

[Greg Seitz]

HI Greg


Yes - it's great, but I don't want to be tweaking colours on 200 photos every time I go out for a day (it never was neccesary with the M8, nor with the Olympus cameras, but it WAS necessary with the D200 and D2x).



I can tweak it - the problem is not whether one can 'make it right' or not (right, after all is pretty subjective), the problem is that it's obviously wrong in the first place, and that I'm absolutely certain there is not a consistent way of dealing with it.

No problem, I was thinking you were consistently seeing the same shift so once you got things to your liking you could apply the same settings. Since you're seeing wildly shifting auto white balance I agree a single approach won't solve the problem for you until you get consistent white balance.

This time of year, we don't get too many days with clear blue sky especially in the morning when we usually go hiking. I'm usually roaming around the woods so most my shots don't involve lots of sky in them so for me I haven't really noticed much of a problem. For my own amusement I'd love to have your file to play around with - I promise not to post the results so no chance of it turning into a competition!

Greg

 

[jonoslack]

Jono:

When I shoot scenics I will tend to put the camera (DMR, M8) on daylight and deal with it in processing of the RAW files. This gives you a starting point as if you were shooting slide film and the AWB is not adjusting out all that nice warm evening light.

Robert

HI Robert
Thank you - I've done that with the M8 (we all know why). The E1 and E3 seem to grab it well.
I do completely agree with you though, I'm going to try doing that next time I go out and see how I get on.

 

[jonoslack]

No problem, I was thinking you were consistently seeing the same shift so once you got things to your liking you could apply the same settings. Since you're seeing wildly shifting auto white balance I agree a single approach won't solve the problem for you until you get consistent white balance.

This time of year, we don't get too many days with clear blue sky especially in the morning when we usually go hiking. I'm usually roaming around the woods so most my shots don't involve lots of sky in them so for me I haven't really noticed much of a problem. For my own amusement I'd love to have your file to play around with - I promise not to post the results so no chance of it turning into a competition!

Greg

Hi Greg - I tend to agree that it's better in the woods, it's also better in 'ordinary' light.

I think Rob's suggestion is probably the best answer.

You can certainly have the raw file (and you're most welcome to post the results as well). Maybe a competition WOULD be fun! I just didn't want this to seem like 'how to make this file look right', I can do that (not that it's that great a picture, just a good example).

It's up on my website - Click on downloads at the top, then right click on the picture and choose 'download linked file' (it's a bit clunky but it should work okay).

Everybody can have a play

 

[Greg Seitz]

Thanks Jono, downloading it now.

Greg

 

[PeterA]

I see Jono - yes well..I have never 'trusted' the WB settings in any camera LOL my workflow is always adjust the raw fil on calibrated screen and printer set-up to taste..I treat teh staring raw file as a sarting raw file..if you get my drift..

however regarding these shots posted- I agree - but have noted same issue with Canon as well...interestingly an R lens on Canon body somewhat cools images down straight out of the camera

also have not noticed this caste with Zeiss on the D3 - however havent shot late afternoon slanting light yet..

 

[LCT]

...Right whaddyathink?

Mainly red cast IMHO. I would try red saturation -20 or -30.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

HI Guy
that really misses the point - of course, when shooting a colour card you must first do a white balance, and make sure the lighting is even. The point about this issue is that the lighting around sunset is very mixed - you could of course do a grey card, but then you don't have any evening light!

Well that is part of the issue is at sunset the light temp changes dramatically . So really hard to judge what is right or wrong. What you are really trying to do is get the calibration correct on the camera first . If you tend to lean red let's say than it will show in any light be it morning or afternoon. Now if you adjust to normal light and the camera has the correct reds , greens and blues than it should fall in line better at lower light times. The issue is also AWB you honestly don't know what it is doing either at any given time of the day. Now if you do take a color chart at noon say and even WB it you still will show that the card is reading to red. This really is a camera software calibration more than anything else. I think you need to get this starting point down first so the camera software is acting in the correct way otherwise you will always fight this over red issue in anything you do. I am just using red as a example here but really what you are doing here is correcting any color shift properly with regards to camera and software. You must have some starting point that you know is working between the two.

Than when you are shooting that excessive amount of red is not there when you bring it in to your software. Than from there you can cool the image down or warm it up to taste. But really this is camera calibration to your software

 

[jonoslack]

Well that is part of the issue is at sunset the light temp changes dramatically . So really hard to judge what is right or wrong. What you are really trying to do is get the calibration correct on the camera first . If you tend to lean red let's say than it will show in any light be it morning or afternoon. Now if you adjust to normal light and the camera has the correct reds , greens and blues than it should fall in line better at lower light times. The issue is also AWB you honestly don't know what it is doing either at any given time of the day. Now if you do take a color chart at noon say and even WB it you still will show that the card is reading to red. This really is a camera software calibration more than anything else. I think you need to get this starting point down first so the camera software is acting in the correct way otherwise you will always fight this over red issue in anything you do. I am just using red as a example here but really what you are doing here is correcting any color shift properly with regards to camera and software. You must have some starting point that you know is working between the two.

Than when you are shooting that excessive amount of red is not there when you bring it in to your software. Than from there you can cool the image down or warm it up to taste. But really this is camera calibration to your software

Thank you Guy - I realise I've been foolish with this issue. The reason is that the Olympus really does this well, and with the Leica I always set a manual white balance (which means that you can make batch changes). I've ALWAYS had trouble with Nikon and evening light, so I've assumed it ain't me.

Of course I've been leaving the Nikon on AWB (sometimes it does it so well). The right way forward is to stop using AWB (I've already done that and things are looking up). As you point out, by using AWB you have a different starting point for every shot, and especially with the kind of landscapes I do with contrast and variable amounts of sky - silly me!

I think it's really unlikely that I'll be able to set a profile with an adjustment to the red/blue/whatever which works across the board - and of course, in mixed lighting there isn't such a thing as a 'correct' white balance. However, I KNOW what colour I WANT, so by getting the camera to use the same white balance from shot to shot I should be able to at least understand what's going on.

So, my first step is to stop using AWB, then to look again and see what I'm getting. It's looking up for this evening, and I'll report back on my findings.

 

[jonoslack]

He Everybody and thank you.
My problem is sorted - I was so used to shooting AWB with the Olympus E3 (and E1 before it) and getting excellent results, and as most of my Nikon stuff had a yellow cast to it, I just assumed it was something else.

I've spent 2 days shooting with Daylight / Cloudy / Tungsten as per the conditions, and I'm now completely happy - Rob has it - keep it manual and then tweak as required later on. Yellow cast is substantially gone.

 

[woodyspedden]

He Everybody and thank you.
My problem is sorted - I was so used to shooting AWB with the Olympus E3 (and E1 before it) and getting excellent results, and as most of my Nikon stuff had a yellow cast to it, I just assumed it was something else.

I've spent 2 days shooting with Daylight / Cloudy / Tungsten as per the conditions, and I'm now completely happy - Rob has it - keep it manual and then tweak as required later on. Yellow cast is substantially gone.

good stuff Jono!

Congrats on getting it sorted out

Woody

 

[jonoslack]

good stuff Jono!

Congrats on getting it sorted out

Woody

Hi Woody, it's dreadful how one can get stuck in a rut with a problem, and once you start to look at it the wrong way . . .

No Tweaking

Yahoo!