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P6000 announced

Lars

Active member
According to DPReview, it would seem that Nikon has taken the somewhat strange path of creating a new RAW format "NRW" for the P6000, with limited software compatibility. Not good.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
When I first saw it, I was absolutely sure that I was going to buy it, but that was before the announcement of the Micro 4/3. It looks good though :)
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
f2.7-5.9 is utterly unnacceptable on such a small zoom range. That and the RAW problem which is getting a lot of nikonites very annoyed - sorry nikon, I think you fluffed it, shame, it's a damn nice looking camera.
 

robmac

Well-known member
What rocket-scientist came up with the idea of !@#$ RAW processing 'in camera' (or via windows only - camera OS some permutation of Windows CLE?). No thanks.
 

Lars

Active member
A little side not re the WIC (Windows Imaging Component) codec support in Windows:

This is an API that allows a codec implementer to provide a rendering of an image format so that any app that is WIC-aware can read any image format if the codec is installed.

If the codec designates itself as a RAW codec then there is additional raw development functionality that can be implemented in the codec, such as exposure, brightness, contrast, white balance etc.

This raw development control functionality is optional - it's up to the codec manufacturer (in this case Nikon) to provide, and up to the imaging software to use.

So while a WIC codec could in theory provide raw development support, in reality I have not seen any commercially available software that relies on the WIC raw development features for raw processing. Most software manufacturers seem to build on DCRAW in some form.

I have added WIC support to my own software project but found a few limitations that just were not acceptable, so WIC is on hold for now as far as I'm concerned.

I have to say that I do like the idea and architecture behind WIC - at the core Microsoft did the right thing. The promise of WIC is that any app can read any imaging format if there is a codec available, and the codec provider (usually the camera manufacturer) makes sure that raw data is correctly interpreted into an image.

The situation right now is that codecs are available for some of the major raw formats but not all. There is no DNG codec from Adobe (a third party DNG codec is available but limited to 8-bit output). The TIFF codec that Microsoft provides is a bit lacking, as is the HDPhoto codec.
 

Lars

Active member
Jorgen,
I wouldn't worry about that - like always it's just a matter of the usual suspects (Adobe, Apple, etc.) updating their raw converters.

What's more important is Nikon pulling a stunt like this and getting the badwill that comes with it. The only logical explanation I can think of is that the technical platform the P6000 is built on (same as P5100?) is different enough from Nikon's DSLRs that supporting NEF became unfeasible somehow. Nevertheless someone somewhere made a bad decision.
 

charlesphoto

New member
Stupid decision on Nikon's part. It's really time that Leica step up, and not just with a rebadged Panasonic. I haven't drunk the small sensor Kool aid yet - am waiting until somebody gets it right. Seems like the companies are edging closer. Another year or so should get us there.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
This WIC limitation is really stupid. I wonder which idiot from marketing had the saying here :mad:

I was really waiting for this Nikon with RAW capabilities, but will now either wait for the Canon G10 or take the Panasonic LX3.

STUPID NIKON - Thank you!
 

robmac

Well-known member
I guess they had to step on their toes sooner or later. At least it's a minor one (given how fast these levels of cameras churn thru the new model iterations_.
 

etrigan63

Active member
Remember, the rumor mill is still waiting for Thom Hogan's Nikon Super P&S camera with a D60 APS-C sized sensor. Also, there is the whole Micro Four-Thirds system to look at as well.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Jorgen,
I wouldn't worry about that - like always it's just a matter of the usual suspects (Adobe, Apple, etc.) updating their raw converters.
Lars,
I was kind of joking.... then. Now, I've done some more reading and found that it's actually worse than I thought :(

Although there will probably be support with other software in the future, only the idea of linking a new RAW format to anything made by MS is a bad decision. MS is well known to cater mostly for their own needs, and frequently make things "not work" unless you upgrade to their latest Service Pack or whatever.

Although that will probably not be the case with the P6000 files, just the idea of making the link to MS is difficult to understand, particularly from Nikon, who has defended their right to be different on every street corner, at least up until now.

WIC may or may not be a good product, but as long as MS is known as the company that pushes new, unproven software down our throats, charging big dollars for the "pleasure", this is a decision that will backfire even if it proves to be good. Although most potential customers for this camera use one or more MS products, many do so because they have to and not because they chose to do so. It's like the communist party of China. It's the biggest in the world, but their great, people-friendly policies are not the reasons why people enroll.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Remember, the rumor mill is still waiting for Thom Hogan's Nikon Super P&S camera with a D60 APS-C sized sensor. Also, there is the whole Micro Four-Thirds system to look at as well.
And the Micro 4/3 cameras will take all my Nikkors (and any other lens that I own) with adapters. I never thought I would look forward to a camera with an EVF :D
 

Lars

Active member
Jorgen,

MS approach to image format support is actually quite open - MS provides the platform, camera vendors make codecs (or plugins if you will).

This approach can be compared to a closed system, where the OS vendor rolls out updates to the OS in order to support new cameras. This is the case with OSX and Aperture (Aperture ties heavily into Core Image which is the image processing subsystem that Apple provides as a part of OSX).

The architectural beauty in WIC lies in its extensibility - just like with Photoshop, media players, Aperture, Lightroom, and lots of other products, the system can be extended by third party vendors, without the platform vendor interfering.

Nikon's raw formats (both NEF and NRW), or any other raw formats for that matter, are in no way linked to Windows. Initial support from Nikon itself for NRW is provided on Windows only, but that says nothing about future software releases. The reason Nikon doesn't ship a plugin for OSX is that Apple doesn't let third party vendors add raw plugins to the OS. Mac users have to wait for Apple to ship updates (which Apple usually promptly does).

Compare the situation to when a new DSLR camera is released. Initially no software supports it (except for the one that ships with the camera). Eventually we see updates rolled out: DCRAW, Camera Raw, Lightroom, Windows codec, OSX, Aperture, and others. No difference really, the same thing will likely happen with NRW.

The problem here is Nikon marketing which cannot seem to write a good press release. There are lots of novice opinions based on incorrect assumptions being expressed in various forum re this issue with P6000 and NRW, just because Nikon's communication failed.

Jorgen, I'm not going to respond to your political analogy, as it's just inappropriate to draw politics into a technical discussion. To keep the quality of this forum at its usual high level, may I suggest that we all avoid such commentary?
 
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Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Jorgen, I'm not going to respond to your political analogy, as it's just inappropriate to draw politics into a technical discussion. To keep the quality of this forum at its usual high level, may I suggest that we all avoid such commentary?
Sorry for the political analogy, and I'll try to refrain from those in the future, but the problem once very big corporations, like MS, get involved is that politics do become a part of the equation. Some of the comments regarding Nikon's choice of RAW standard for the P6000 do even indicate that this is a political and not a technological decision by Nikon.
 
O

Oxide Blu

Guest
Jorgen,

... MS provides the platform, camera vendors make codecs (or plugins if you will).


So, unless the P6000 falls completely on its face, and Nikon never makes another camera with the same NRW-RAW format, it's just a matter of time before everyone (and their dog) has software support for this new RAW format.

Thanks for the info! :thumbup:
 
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Steen

Senior Subscriber Member
Honestly Lars, I don't see any problem whatsoever with Jorgens analogy (whether it be political or not) exactly because it was just an analogy and nothing but an analogy.
I mean after all it was not some boring political gospel from a soap box, it was just a rather humorous but very picturesque and descriptive analogy that even I understood, though being a little dense sometimes :p
Let's keep the friendly and humorous tone here :)
 

Lars

Active member
Bondo (and Jorgen),
No worries, I just like this place and don't want it to deteriorate like so many others, didn't mean to over-police.
 
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