Some of the sample D800/D800E photos used f/8. I have a strong feeling that this is already diffraction limited.
As others mentioned we need great lenses, good shooting skills and very good post processing. Add my Fine Detail Sharpen to these images and they got quite a bit better. But they also had fine halos baked into the JPEGs.
>Actually a great supplement to the 1 System
Get an adapter to use your Nikon 1 lenses on it :-)
As a Canon shooter (who's been waiting for a "1Ds Mark IV" for YEARS), all I can say is... "Holy sh*t." I am really digging that D800E.
I know MP aren't everything, but 36MP w/o an AA filter (or rather "cancelled")? That's impressive. You'd have to shoot MF for more (not a bad thing).
Canon had better pull a helluva rabbit out of its a$$, and soon.
If the alarm bells were not ringing before at Phase, Leaf and Blad they should be on defcon deep red now. The samples are good, really good:
the full sample page is here:
D800 / D800E -
the most important part is that the image quality will probably be still very good at 400 or 800 this actually means that this thing has surpassed an IQ180 at Sensor +...........double the file size at usable highspeed.
Anybody wants to take bets how fast the prices will fall for used 40Mpix backs ?
Shush Stefan, they'll lynch you over on the MF board for saying this stuff though I happen to agree with you .
Oh and I'm about to order a Leaf Aptus II-8, tomorrow if they get their act together on the cheques, doesn't bother me because, a) I ain't paying b) I don't want to wait months to get this project moving c) I still think the IQ of the 8 is better than these samples by a substantial amount though lenses will be playing a big part of that d) it's a tethered studio camera that will rarely be detached from the Mayer Traveller, I don't need a dip in IQ for useability when I practically don't need any useability at all.
I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz
What I'm wondering is the difference between a CCD sensor with no AA (such as my M9's or many/most of the MF backs) and a 36mp CMOS sensor without. I've had little to no problems with the M9 but the Nikon could be something else.
I kinda want one, but will wait to see more image examples between the two models and see what high iso is like. Could be a little overkill for what I do so maybe just stick to the good ol' D3 and wait a and see if they come out with D4 specs in a smaller sized body down the road.....
I watched the London launch video and they showed a pixel level comparison between the D800 and D800e. There was quite a difference in micro detail, with the clear advantage going to the no AA filter 800e, unsurprisingly.
It also appears the D800 uses a Sony sourced sensor which makes one wonder why Sony won't be releasing their own camera based on this sensor until early 2013.
I'm glad I own some Nikon stock right now and not Phase or Hasselblad. Realistically, I suspect these cameras will be taking a huge chunk of their business. I have already ordered a D800E. After a workshop last fall where I saw work done with P45+ backs, I started actively drooling over a 40MP back for my Hasselblad V camera. Now, for at least the time being, especially given the huge amounts of money I earn with my work :-), the D800E has apparently solved my problem at a huge saving. That money can go toward travel, paper, and ink. I am fortunate to own both "Holy Trinities," the 14-24, 24-70, and 70-200 as well as the 24-45-85 PCE's. So I have a decent investment in what should be pretty usable lenses for the D800. Now all I need is the camera.
I am using my 5D MK2 without AA filter since over a year now. No Problems at all with significantly better IQ. Moiree happens nearly never - and - as I can take a lifeview check if I suspect something, moving forward or backwards sometimes on centimeters removes it. You just have to be careful and take a look. In exchange the files have about 20-30 % better sharpeness, more details in Highlights and structure in shadows.
I strongly suspect this will be the same with the D800E.
A word about the pricing: Actually the D800E should be cheaper about 50 $ as this is what the AA filter may cost Nikon. To price it higher for leaving off a part that was never wanted by many is just marketing , but I´m sure most people will pay these 300 $ more without complaining............
Just this guy you know
^ Stefan, technically Nikon didn't "leave a part out" of the E variant. That's why they use the term "cancel" rather than "omit" as only the first low pass filter is different. It's still there, but it cancels itself out further towards the sensor. But I totally agree; charging more over the D800 is lame on Nikon's part. It should be the same price if anything.
FWIW, no moire in this (huge) sample image.
Just because the sensor is manufactured by Sony doesn't mean its a Sony design, or that Sony inherits the rights to use or resell the design. Nikon seems to claim it's their design but I haven't seen any clear statements either way.
Re higher price without AA filter - first, some of us obviously are willing to pay more so why not price it higher? second, 800E might be produced in significantly lower volume which often means higher cost.
I take any bet: the D800E will be the standard body once people will find out that the moiree story is mostly an old castle ghost not to bee seen to often....
I do not blame Nikon doing this, actually Kudos for doing it ! I wished Canon had done it also and much earlier ! I paid 500 € to have my 5D MK2 converted, but of course I´d be much happier if it came from the factory like it is now for 50 $ less.............
I would agree, most folks will probably opt for the D800E version. I know I would. As far as Canon, indeed - their AA filter is a real turn-off. It needs to go.
This sensor seems to be a modified and FF version of the excellent APSc sensor in the:
Pentax K5 (possibly they did the best job with it - DxO certainly thing so)
Sony A55, NEX 5n etc.
Great DXO mark etc.
The sensor in the D3x was substantially the same as that in the A900 A850 . . etc. etc.
There is already much talk of a Sony A99 with a 36mp full frame sensor.
Just this guy you know
sure they put a plain piece of glass where the AA filter was, should have the same diffraction index and thickness. This is how my 5D MK2 was converted.
But..... if I think of it, if the camera designers have actually known that they will build an AA less version for better performance it would be superior if there is just the UV/IR cut reducing the additional air-glass-air passes.
This could mean if they designed it like an MF back this would make much more sense. The antialiasing version can have this additional glass, so it actually would mean it would be really more expensive to make the AA version.
did you take a look at the channels in Photoshop ?
I have to say if this is the preproduction "bad" sample with a beta raw codec then I have to say - WOW ! The bluechannel looks super clean especially if you take a look at the dark skinned womans portrait, dark brow is about one of the worst things to throw at digital, I think this one is superb !
exif says it was shot with a 200mm at F10/ 1/200 sec at 100 asa.
I cannot see much diffraction there, this looks pinsharp to me !
Cool link - from robvanpetten.com
Nikon D800 | Rob Van Petten
And as always the photographer makes the images not the camera.
this guy can photograph and because of this the images look good.
It´s not because of the 36Mpix.
Read what he writes:
".......The screen images look like a medium format camera but the body handles smoothly and effortlessly like a D700. My Medium Format dreams are answered......."
This is about the central sentence I´d say : it´s got the handling and the workflow of a 35mm with the maybe 90-95 % quality of a medium format machine.
This will do for most of us.
I was looking at the Nikon samples (most of which were shoot at f/8) and I am not really certain there is a difference between the models with and without the AA filter.
I think what's so exceptional about the D800E (and even D800) is 14-bit MF like file sizes with the usability of a top-flight 35mm DSLR. The latter includes lenses like fisheyes and 500/4's, VR, exceptionally good AF, and flash control. Both are compromised of course - the files aren't going to be mistaken for a P45+ or IQ back to those in the know, and it's not going to shoot like a D4. But the crossover territory is still extremely interesting in its own.
I also think the lens stuff is a little overstated. I'm confident the 24-70, 70-200, and maybe 14-24 will do just fine. As will many primes, including AI-S classics. It's only 50% more real estate over the A900, which does just fine - with an AA filter no less. DxO Labs is going to have a field day with the D800E producing lens modules for DOP!
I am too invested in the Sony stuff to think about this. I like the CZ lens better than the Nikon lens anyway.
maybe because he´s a fashion guy and looks at the camera more as a vehicle for his imagination ? A very healthy point of view, that some of the MF users have completely lost. I´d say an image is an image because its "AN IMAGE" not because it was shot with brand "X" and chip size "Y".
I don´t know, but these Pro´s who are working since years do have a completely differing approach - this expresses pretty good in this video:
Nikon D800 In the Studio with Rob Van Petten on Vimeo
Sure he got money from Nikon, but heck how many of the statements written here on the MF forum part and on LL´s MF forum are from people who got sponsored by Phase or Blad ?
I smell the mileage of people from the business and this guy is just telling what he thinks.
My 2 cents
"[H]ow many of the statements written here on the MF forum part and on LL´s MF forum are from people who got sponsored by Phase or Blad?"
Why don't you tell us, Stefan? How many of the posters here are being paid by Phase and Hasselblad?
Concerning the higher cost of the non-AA filter, I'm guessing one part of that is the extra canceling filter. The other part of that was probably financial accounting due to investment in moire reduction in the firmware and Capture NX2. I'm not sure about the normal D800, but I've heard a special version of NX 2 ships with the D800E. That might account for part of the price increases too.
you want a list by email or is it enough when I say that you and I know exactly who these are ?
And this is absolutely OK btw. Nobody says that their opinion is less valuable.
Just the opposite, _because_ there is this platform/s it is possible to discuss on a very high level and the inside views.
I for myself am strictly an involved party and I always say this.
This does not keep me from saying things that some may not have expected from me, as it may not even vastly serve my own interests.
Speaking of this new Nikon is reminding me that we need a large CMOS on MF, ............soon ! Otherwise ...........
No, Stefan, I want you to name the offenders publicly or stop making snide accusations.
Or are you just referring to people who are publicly associated with brands, like yourself?
I think the possible sensation of this camera is not whether it can run Phase and Hasselblad out of business but that it brings excellent image quality and detail at a comparably affordable pricepoint.
MF systems have their niche including great lenses but the investment is 5-10x if you look at the entire system - so what's the point in comparing to MF. From a product comparison standpoint it makes more sense to look at what else is available at a similar price point.
Last edited by Lars; 7th February 2012 at 16:29.
Exactly Stephen, No conspiration here. Just as I said. If David Grover writes something about Hasselblad or Doug Peterson about Phase nobody feels offended and nevertheless all people get valid information. And nobody would say - ah he is paid by xxxx. So why do you think this Rob van Petten is different? Did you look at his "about" page ? He knows what he´s talking about.
Now how big can one print from this monster? Will the current Nikon lenses be optimal for this resolution? I remember how Nikon's 70-200 all of the sudden wasn't great in the corners, once I went FX back in 2009.
My Photos: 500px
Some landscape photographers may see it differently though
Oh, and check the library sample shot taken with the 14-24mm. That lens is at least up to it.
I don't care what gear I have.
Things I sell: http://www.shutterstock.com/sets/413...html?rid=61105
I don't think Nikon will release a 36MP camera that will shoot themselves in the foot with regards to the current lenses not being able to handle it. At least from the sample images that I have seen from the Nikon website in JPEG form shows this to be true, mostly shot with the trinity zooms.
How much more it can handle is a different matter altogether and then news about Sony releasing or at least showing off 100MP organic sensors will be more interesting. Canon (Sorry Nikon fans) just announced their new 24-70 zoom, and they seem to have taken 82mm filter size compared with Nikon's 77mm size for their zooms. I think its glassware and mount size might also show it's limits in the near future too, but this just speculation! I decided not to sell off my current Nikon glass with the addition of the D800E. It's very exciting times indeed and this year is off to a great start!
I would want the non-AA version.
"I would want the non-AA version"
Does anyone know anybody who will NOT buy the D800E ?
??? At the moment I have read maybe 20 statements of people in the internet who ordered a D800E I also know personally 4, 2 of my customers and NOBODY wants the normal D800.........???
Well done Nikon !
As is, it is a no go for me.
I think the $300 extra for the D800E is unacceptable. It should cost more for Nikon to have the AA in place. They are not cheap (Jono already said that) and what they have in place is a different stack without the LiNbO3 AA material but with a plain glass.
Sony is rumored to be working on a new type of sensor and there could be a 100MP (no typos) camera next year.
Well from a marketing and PR point of view this is perfect.
As soon as they know that all the customers buy the D800E they can just leave off the 2 Diffraction glasses (whatever these really do...This will make the camera even better and their costs even lower..... ) and can bring out a D900 E PRO for 4000 € leaving off the nikon sign and the red stripe, just call it black edition and do the Leica thing.
I love it ! Japanese are cool !
About diffraction on the D800E - take a look at Diglloyd.com
Lloyd has a theory about diffraction being actually the perfect match for the high resolution - f11 being the fstop which will effectivly eliminate any possible moiree :
diglloyd.com blog - Nikon D800E: More on Moiré
Cool - in german we call this catch two flies with one hit.
I find the .NEF files harder to tune than the Leica DNG s ..but I think the Leica DNG s are closer to my desired target . The S2 DNG files are a lot flatter than the M9 files but with the proper calibration and presets that look amazingly similar . I am also sure that the fashion photographers are tuning to a very different target .