V
Vivek
Guest
Those who pay to read such reviews always would defend them. Why discuss this in open fora. Wouldn't it be better to have a Diglloyd forum for the subscribers and hash things out there?
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
In your opinion being the operative phrase ... and maybe, just maybe, not a completely informed one.The internet is filled with reams of tech info regarding research for a particular camera or similar. Some have good reputations based on the extent and knowledge of such research, and I find that Lloyd's site is generally unbiased. His "paid" site, is much more detailed with an emphasis on particular areas that suit individual photographers. I tend to think that subscription sites can be more objective in their findings, as they're not beholden to a specific brand, and thus ego's are kept in check. DXO's site also utilizes very technical criteria to measure the performance of new technology, and it's findings don't seem biased, but rather essential for accumulating data.
I disagree with the "generalist" label because Leica's website even touts the S2, as being much like a 35mm in size and handling-in my opinion that appeals specifically to the "generalist" photographer. As planned obsolescence seems to rule the digital marketing cycle, Nikon's D800 is the new player, and bodes well for many photographers in many areas, with results that are directly comparable to the more expensive MFD and ultra 35mm, like the S2. Never read a camera review, after the purchase
MarcIt is interesting to think about the whole testing dynamic, and how various people both view and use it ... as expressed to some degree on this thread. I tend to view"paid ones" from a marketing perspective ... people either with a purchase intent, or looking for purchase justification.
I've never found various comprehensive test to be of any more value than being "generally directional" as applied to practical real world usage. When Guy and Jack first tested the S2 here, it was a directional guide, and I later found Lloyd's report added little insight to it. What was far more important to me was a real world, hands on demo provided by Dale photographic. After that, I waited until the S2 offering matured more.
Of course a test can be an indicator of suitability IF it is conducted in a manner similar to one's own intended use ... which I rarely find to be the case. I do not think Lloyd's reports are the same as asking a fellow photographer their opinion. There is little to nothing that Lloyd shoots that is relevant to what and how I shoot. If I ask a fellow photographer, I don't ask one that shoots landscapes, because I don't shoot landscape photography. I ask a people shooter.
A related "speed bump" I always hit with these tests is that it seems the intent of the product positioning platform is often over-looked. Leica has been pretty clear in how they position this camera and its intended target audience. It was never positioned as "generalists" tool, but keeps on getting evaluated that way. There are better choices for the "generalist" photographer, and considerably less expensive ones.
-Marc
Marc
It is not surprising that you find little of value in any test . You are so not like any of the S2 owners I know that it is you that is not relevant to this discussion. Your experience and skills are without a doubt as good as I have seen . Nobody would doubt that you are an excellent photographer and because of your experience and dedication capable of getting superb results from the very best equipment. The best analogy I can find is a bogey golfer asking for club advice from a PGA pro.
Your willingness to accept the perspective of others is lacking . Not everyone immediately sees the differences and though we aspire to higher levels of professionalism most of us aren t there . We aren t stupid and incapable of understanding ..but we sometimes need examples and insights .
Test results with examples are useful to me . Agree that Diglloyd s test examples maybe done more to preserve a repeatable process that to provide insights into the ascetic that is obvious (when you know what to look for). I read all the tests diglloyd,Sean Reid , Michael Reichman ,Guy and Jack and a lot more . I am just interested in what they look for ,what they consider important and how they test for it. I don t even think about whether I agree with their conclusions .
IMO you are stepping over the line into Bullying ....like Jeff Schewe over at LL . No one else has a clue or in Jeff s case even brain.
You can take the position that no one should even be looking at an S2 unless they truly “get it” ..what an elitist attitude . I know personally half the photographers that post about the S2 . We disagree a lot but its always done in good taste and I learn from them.
Sorry to all for my rank but enough is enough .
Roger, I commend you for the politeness displayed in your posts. Concurrently succinctly expressing your point of view. That in and of itself reflects the person you are. That quality is worthy of my respect.This thread is really getting in a wrong direction IMHO.
Fair enough Roger, and I sincerely thank you for the "tune up". Passion sometimes gets the best of me. Good for doing work, but not when discussing somethingMarc
It is not surprising that you find little of value in any test . You are so not like any of the S2 owners I know that it is you that is not relevant to this discussion. Your experience and skills are without a doubt as good as I have seen . Nobody would doubt that you are an excellent photographer and because of your experience and dedication capable of getting superb results from the very best equipment. The best analogy I can find is a bogey golfer asking for club advice from a PGA pro.
Your willingness to accept the perspective of others is lacking . Not everyone immediately sees the differences and though we aspire to higher levels of professionalism most of us aren t there . We aren t stupid and incapable of understanding ..but we sometimes need examples and insights .
Test results with examples are useful to me . Agree that Diglloyd s test examples maybe done more to preserve a repeatable process that to provide insights into the ascetic that is obvious (when you know what to look for). I read all the tests diglloyd,Sean Reid , Michael Reichman ,Guy and Jack and a lot more . I am just interested in what they look for ,what they consider important and how they test for it. I don t even think about whether I agree with their conclusions .
IMO you are stepping over the line into Bullying ....like Jeff Schewe over at LL . No one else has a clue or in Jeff s case even brain.
You can take the position that no one should even be looking at an S2 unless they truly “get it” ..what an elitist attitude . I know personally half the photographers that post about the S2 . We disagree a lot but its always done in good taste and I learn from them.
Sorry to all for my rank but enough is enough .
Why should anyone feel the need to show, let alone prove to you?..
Sorry, but no one could show me so far better results from the S2 than could have been achieved with say a H4D40 or Phase P40+ or IQ140 and meanwhile also the D800 and its sibling without AA filter.
.....
The differences that some see/want/desire are the Leica lenses. It doesn't have as much to do with business or needing a S2 to compete professionally and all that ... so I agree with you there.This thread is really getting in a wrong direction IMHO.
Why can there not be a number of people who are just happy with what the D800 / D800E bring to the game? This camera is the most outstanding development in digital photography over the past 10 years - at least for me. End of the day it offers incredible IQ, high MP count, superb ISO performance and all of that in a small body, which comes to a FRACTION of the price of the S2 (or any other MFD 40MP solution). I simply could not care less about the subtile differences between D800 and MFD in the area of 40MP, if I just consider the price.
Sorry to say, but if as a pro I NEED to have cameras like an S2 today in order to get the business or to differentiate from my peers, then I am doing something really wrong. So it cannot be the need, but rather the will to own equipment like the S2. And this side is fully understood. But everybody, even every pro (or even more valid for a pro) has a price limit for certain things to achieve. And no one can tell me that an S2 is needed, but it is definitely nice to have and absolutely a superb type of camera and maybe in some years even a superb system.
Having said that, the issue with Leica is that they are not really known for timely follow ups in their high end camera families, so I fear this is also true for the S2. While they at least should have announced a follow on body with whatever better capabilities (more resolution, better high ISO performance, better AF, etc) they most probably will not show up with such a camera before many years. And this means that their wonderful S2 model for an even more wonderful price will get even more outdated if it comes to overall features and pricing and system.
IMHO the S2 project should have never happened and they should have stayed in the 35-DSLR arena and bring some real high end camera in that area 4 years ago. And now upgrade it to something which nicely tops the D800, simply because of superior R glass and also newly developed R-AF glass. But now, with the S2 they find themselves in a niche which is too expensive to be attractive to more than crazily rich people or some demanding niche type photographers and finally some amateurs who think they need this type of equipment to make better photos, but could have achieved the same thing with meanwhile a number of alternative systems.
Sorry, but no one could show me so far better results from the S2 than could have been achieved with say a H4D40 or Phase P40+ or IQ140 and meanwhile also the D800 and its sibling without AA filter.
Maybe I am blind to these differences, but if so I am very grateful that I am because that saves tons of money
I would agree it would be quite evolutionary and a welcomed addition to have the the type of AF array we see in many of the current 35 DSLRs, and incorporated into a potential future S3 bodies or later incarnations of the 645D. Where I would respectfully disagree with the statement above is that the current ones in the 645D as being a bit pointless..on the contrary! Countless of times I've set up the 645D camera on tripod while composing a image with elements in the frame at different distances....and because of moment to moment changes in what I was shooting, having AF points off from the center on both sides of the frame was a real time and image saver.It'd be amazing if Leica could improve their autofocus system to include multiple cross type focus points over a broad area of the fram – not like the Pentax 645D, which is a bit pointless IMHO.
Jack,Bottom line is lenses DO have characteristics that grab our attentions, and just like beauty, we can each see it differently.
Marc,The differences that some see/want/desire are the Leica lenses. It doesn't have as much to do with business or needing a S2 to compete professionally and all that ... so I agree with you there.
However, I don't think it is a fair assessment to say the S2 is for crazy rich people, etc. I may be crazy, but I'm not crazy rich . There are simply those who enjoy the qualities of the Leica optics ... and will pay a premium to get it ... like $12,000 for a 50mm f/0.95.
I shoot so damned much that at this stage, it is nice to bring a camera to hand that I personally enjoy having in hand, with lenses that deliver the look and feel I prefer. Nothing more to it than that (which in retrospect is all I should have ever said in the first place, and kept myself out of trouble : -)
Marc
StuartI am starting to think about the S2 and M9 as my "don't give a $hit" cameras, because now that I have them and have been using them, I no longer give a $hit about other digital cameras. They do exactly what I want and their images are fantastic.
The D800 is not even on my radar, but I hope that for all the people that are enchanted by it, it can be their "don't give a $hit" camera too. Isn't that what it's really about? Everyone has their own ruler by which they judge their equipment and what is important to them. It's one of the reasons I am posting less these days I guess. I realized that I am not really interested in any of the new cameras these days, and so many of the image threads are organized by what camera posted them...something which used to be really interesting to me, and now doesn't leave me particularly excited.