Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

[richard.L]

PS,,, by PC, I mean picture control ... they can be set using Nikon free tool...

 

[richard.L]

yep, that's what I understood you to me... not masked to physical ... look at yellow... no idea what the actual scene looked like...

 

[danielmoore]

The camera is set to Adobe, Standard color and D lighting off. I was cautious to keep the variable under control. Though it is in shade the NX2 is closer to reality in this case. Yes the scene is shifted toward yellow but as I mentioned, there's a lot more going on than just the color. I do hope some of you do your own full res comparisons in both converters to see all the differences, it's easy to see only the strongest disparity at this scale, the color. Bottom line, I do a lot of this type of work for contractors, landscape architects and architects and only the latter would potentially prefer the C1 over the NX2 versions. This is Berkeley, CA. It's a weather bubble, never too hot, only rarely too cold, and the greens stay very saturated all year, NX2 might show some seemingly punchy greens but that's the reality here. Think shooting inside a greenhouse on a sunny day.

In the interim I've passed several more images through both converters to get a better feel and it really is a toss up, scene dependent.

 

[danielmoore]

Guy, I see your toasted and I raise you injected. I might out of self respect desaturate the yellows some in a processed file (these are defaults) but I'm really liking the improved separation in the greens as a result of it. In direct sun, greens are too yellow in C1 IMO, though not as much as with the D700.

 

[kuau]

Again my question would be trying the different picture control settings either in camera or NX2 and compare results to C1, and best to shoot a Macbeth Color Chart, and first do a custom WB incamera, shoot the chart, and compare RGB values.
Coming from a background of being a journeyman scanner operator, way back in the day,
way before color management, we always worked in CMYK, never RGB, and a term that was always used was "pleasing color" and for most of us today, I think that's what we are looking for unless, like Guy for instance shooting apparel or something where color match is critical, then a custom ICC profile is a must and usually only performs best in a controlled studio situation, not outdoor shooting, as Guy mentioned Color temp changes throughout the day and one would have to keep doing a custom WB, and reshoot the chart.
My last business I was in for over 10 years was the Fine Art Repro business "Giclee"
So I lived and died with CM and it had to be perfect to get an "almost" exact match to the original art work I was shooting. Yeah I was using a better light scan back, but the principle is / was the same.
Bottom line, in the world of pleasing color, which I believe we live in, when is the grass to green, or the sky to blue?

Steven

 

[glenerrolrd]

Steve

The goal is agreed upon..in the end most photographers want pleasing color . The issue as I am sure you know is how to get there consistently . To be extreme just to be sure I am clear ..if the files WB was way off ...it would be hard to get to pleasing color without an exceptional eye for color .

You started down the path of recommending a process . In LR (where we started ) you typically work with three distinct adjustments (1)WB (2)calibration to a standard and (3) development presets to a desired “pleasing look” or specific style . Then you fine tune as required .

The issue specific to the D800E is that even in a controlled environment with perfect WB .....LR doesn t seem to produce a neutral rendering or the color chart . Normally you resolve this by creating a custom profile (Calibration to the standard ). This doesn t seem to be creating a neutral rendering of he color chart as its supposed to.

Again my question would be trying the different picture control settings either in camera or NX2 and compare results to C1, and best to shoot a Macbeth Color Chart, and first do a custom WB incamera, shoot the chart, and compare RGB values.
Coming from a background of being a journeyman scanner operator, way back in the day,
way before color management, we always worked in CMYK, never RGB, and a term that was always used was "pleasing color" and for most of us today, I think that's what we are looking for unless, like Guy for instance shooting apparel or something where color match is critical, then a custom ICC profile is a must and usually only performs best in a controlled studio situation, not outdoor shooting, as Guy mentioned Color temp changes throughout the day and one would have to keep doing a custom WB, and reshoot the chart.
My last business I was in for over 10 years was the Fine Art Repro business "Giclee"
So I lived and died with CM and it had to be perfect to get an "almost" exact match to the original art work I was shooting. Yeah I was using a better light scan back, but the principle is / was the same.
Bottom line, in the world of pleasing color, which I believe we live in, when is the grass to green, or the sky to blue?

Steven

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Roger it just sounds like they did not do a good job of setting up this cam. Not being a LR user but by some of yours and others comments, this is not sounding like a job well done.

What really has my interest here is even if you profile your cam its still not correct and this is ONLY the E version.

 

[kuau]

Roger,
Since I just got my D800/E the other day and I don't shoot in the studio, meaning a controlled environment, I am really not sure what the problem is with LR4 and the D800/E is and has Guy mentioned above, making a custom profile for your setup using Xrite Color Passport should get you there where you need to be. Or at least very close.
yet if it's not, then there is for sure a problem with LR4 with there canned profiles they created for a D800/E. Did you try the "Neutral" profile as opposed to standard? yet again I still find it hard to believe that making your own profile would not fix the issue especially in a studio situation where you control everything.
or..
Try CNX2 set your picture control to neutral and see if that makes a difference.
I would think that should do a "faithful" reproduction of the color chart.

Who knows. Way to many options today and more testing is the only way to get ir right or whatever right is....

Steven

 

[ustein]

>making a custom profile for your setup using Xrite Color Passport should get you there where you need to be. Or at least very close.

'Should' does not help. I tried and it did not help. No idea why as things worked fine in the past with other cameras.

 

[glenerrolrd]

I can get it where I want in Lr but it requires inspection of the image and adjustment of HSL individual colors ...

Did a side by side with NX2 and first rendering looked like my best custom edited LR . It still has some biases but those can be handled by a preset ..eg. RED is a little yellow and a little saturated ..easy to adjust .

NX2 does have noticeable improvements in tone separation and rendering of fine detail. ( Didn t Nikon tell us this the D800E should use NX2) .

Had a friend run a test under studio lights and it came out that the passport was strong verse the standard adobe.

Then Carolyn shot the Goldens tonight with her D7000(same sensor design) with a std jpg and the color was perfect .

It will get sorted out .

Roger,
Since I just got my D800/E the other day and I don't shoot in the studio, meaning a controlled environment, I am really not sure what the problem is with LR4 and the D800/E is and has Guy mentioned above, making a custom profile for your setup using Xrite Color Passport should get you there where you need to be. Or at least very close.
yet if it's not, then there is for sure a problem with LR4 with there canned profiles they created for a D800/E. Did you try the "Neutral" profile as opposed to standard? yet again I still find it hard to believe that making your own profile would not fix the issue especially in a studio situation where you control everything.
or..
Try CNX2 set your picture control to neutral and see if that makes a difference.
I would think that should do a "faithful" reproduction of the color chart.

Who knows. Way to many options today and more testing is the only way to get ir right or whatever right is....

Steven

 

[kuau]

Hmm looks like I better dust off my CNX2 box for now.
Roger since you mentioned that you are using standard for picture control,
Are you doing any more capture sharpening in NX2?
Just wondering.

Uwe, wow I know you are doing everything right with the passport and no improvement.
Maybe tomorrow I will try the passport alternative Qp card 203 and there dng profile software. I will report back with my findings
Steven

 

[ustein]

>Uwe, wow I know you are doing everything right with the passport and no improvement.

Not sure but used it for many cameras and no problem so far (except Nikons ).

 

[kuau]

Here is a quick test I did with my D800/E and processed in LR4 and CNX2
The LR4 version all I set was contrast curve linear, and I did sharpening
amount:80
radius: .7
detail: 60
masking 29
Camera Calibration Camera Standard

The CNX2 version
All default settings that are tied to picture control "Standard"

Both output to 16bit tiff ProPhoto RGB
Opened in CS6, convert to 8 bit, downsize 1300 pixels wides 90 DPI
Convert Profile to SRGB
Save as jpg at 80%

Color is debatable, I think I also have on my D800 the D-Active turned on to normal so the tone curve is a little different in CNX2 because it picks up that setting from the camera, where as LR4 does not do anything.

Sharpening a whole different story, LR4 sharpening is superior IMHO over NX2, though more research is needed in capture sharpening in NX2, I emailed Jason O'dell he is a big NX2 user to see what he does for his D800

NX2

LR4

Steven

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Blue sky still looks like too much yellow

 

[kuau]

I did not do a custom WB I just had WB set to daylight. I wonder if I did a custom WB that would take care of the yellow. Daylight WB I think is 5500k, maybe to warm.

 

[ustein]

Maybe I should try Camera Standard too.

 

[danielmoore]

I didn't think to check in camera sharpening until Kuau commented on it. It was set for default of 3 or so and setting it to zero made a big improvement. I don't trust NX2 to sharpen my pencil. It sharpening tool invariably makes a mess of things. Whereas C1 does an excellent job with the D800E with no intervention. I take NX2 out from under my desk where it acts as a shim only when changing cameras. This latest version is the same old ever tiresome interface but the output is very respectable and the speed much improved upon. I will continue to try and get C1 in the same ballpark.The enhanced tonal separation is a bear to match without introducing a heavy handed look, may simply be impossible with the tools - more of a profile thing. I'm going to try lightroom as well. As I understand it it's using ACR. The default processing in Photoshop for the image I posted looks colorwise much like NX2, lacks the same tonal separation and did a nice job of blowing out the yellow cauliflower looking things.

I'm wondering if the difficulty in creating a nice profile with the colorchecker has to do with a new and even wider range of colors being mapped by a mcuh smaller handful and it's just not going to be enough to do the job. Perhaps what we need is a new target for display on a calibrated wide gamut monitor to better match the ever expanding color palette we're being blessed with. I'll even name it for Xrite: Colorchecker Supernatural. Has a nice ring, don't you think?

 

[Stefan Steib]

Some Days ago Apple has released a new Raw Update and Aperture supports both D800 and D800E now. I think the colors are pretty good. It´s slower than C1 and LR4 though.

regards
Stefan

 

[ausemmao]

I didn't think to check in camera sharpening until Kuau commented on it. It was set for default of 3 or so and setting it to zero made a big improvement. I don't trust NX2 to sharpen my pencil. It sharpening tool invariably makes a mess of things. Whereas C1 does an excellent job with the D800E with no intervention. I take NX2 out from under my desk where it acts as a shim only when changing cameras. This latest version is the same old ever tiresome interface but the output is very respectable and the speed much improved upon. I will continue to try and get C1 in the same ballpark.The enhanced tonal separation is a bear to match without introducing a heavy handed look, may simply be impossible with the tools - more of a profile thing. I'm going to try lightroom as well. As I understand it it's using ACR. The default processing in Photoshop for the image I posted looks colorwise much like NX2, lacks the same tonal separation and did a nice job of blowing out the yellow cauliflower looking things.

I'm wondering if the difficulty in creating a nice profile with the colorchecker has to do with a new and even wider range of colors being mapped by a mcuh smaller handful and it's just not going to be enough to do the job. Perhaps what we need is a new target for display on a calibrated wide gamut monitor to better match the ever expanding color palette we're being blessed with. I'll even name it for Xrite: Colorchecker Supernatural. Has a nice ring, don't you think?

D7000 here rather than D800, things should still hold though.

I find the hue adjustments under the camera calibration tab are better for getting the initial colour correct if using the packaged profiles - shifting the green primary hue (depending on white balance, I've found images can need anywhere from 10 to 70!) deals with a lot of the issues, and a slight shift away from red too.

 

[ustein]

D7000 here rather than D800, things should still hold though.

I find the hue adjustments under the camera calibration tab are better for getting the initial colour correct if using the packaged profiles - shifting the green primary hue (depending on white balance, I've found images can need anywhere from 10 to 70!) deals with a lot of the issues, and a slight shift away from red too.

But if you start using the camera calibration sliders you are likely better off to use HSL as it gives you more control.