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28mm: what's people's favourite, and why?

Speaking of smeared corners, my favorite 28 is a lens that's gotten a lot abuse on these forums: a Schneider PC Super Angulon shift lens.

It's the best and worst lens I've used. I've had to learn to stay within its limitations, as far as shift and aperture. When I do the results are stunning. When I don't, there's terrible astigmatism in the far corners, and seriously acid trip-worthy color fringing.

My soon-to-be favorite lens will probably be the frighteningly priced 28mm f4.5 TS Super Angulon that's coming out later this year. If Scheider is doing more than recycling an old optic, this lens could give medium format digital freedom—ability to use wide apertures and to shift with near impunity.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Speaking of smeared corners, my favorite 28 is a lens that's gotten a lot abuse on these forums: a Schneider PC Super Angulon shift lens.

It's the best and worst lens I've used. I've had to learn to stay within its limitations, as far as shift and aperture. When I do the results are stunning. When I don't, there's terrible astigmatism in the far corners, and seriously acid trip-worthy color fringing.

My soon-to-be favorite lens will probably be the frighteningly priced 28mm f4.5 TS Super Angulon that's coming out later this year. If Scheider is doing more than recycling an old optic, this lens could give medium format digital freedom—ability to use wide apertures and to shift with near impunity.
Interesting you should express your thoughts on a lens thats both your best and worse. I had a non Leica 28mm M lens that has corners that were somewhat smeared and soft...yet the way the lens was able to draw and render an image was simply beautiful. On technical grounds, the lens was far behind in optical performance than many others...on a purely esthetic look it gives to images...I loved it.

When a lens has smeared corners and simply records a good or sharp picture elsewhere's, I don't look kindly upon it. If it has smeared corners but the rest of the image simply draws me in due to the way it records an image...then those smeared corners not only don't matter too much but sometimes is even an asset.

Dave (D&A)
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I'm on either side of the 28 with the Zeiss 25 F2 was not impressed with the Zeiss 28 F2 and than I have the Sigma 35 1.4 so really don't need a 28mm prime but for PR type shooting 28 is nice to have so than I use the Nikon 24-70 which at 28mm is pretty good.
 
Dave, the Schneider I'm describing complicates things a bit by being a shift lens. Unshifted it's amazing, shifted a bit it's usually amazing (but no guarantees), shifted a lot it's terrible. There are other variables that have to be managed also, and some that I may not have figured out yet.

Here's an example that I think looks good. There's a bit of smearing in the corners, but you'd have to print bigger than 36" and stick your nose in to notice. In a 24" print it looks better than anything I've seen from my 4x5. This was probably shifted 5 or 6mm—as far as I'm comfortable going.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Dave, the Schneider I'm describing complicates things a bit by being a shift lens. Unshifted it's amazing, shifted a bit it's usually amazing (but no guarantees), shifted a lot it's terrible. There are other variables that have to be managed also, and some that I may not have figured out yet.

Here's an example that I think looks good. There's a bit of smearing in the corners, but you'd have to print bigger than 36" and stick your nose in to notice. In a 24" print it looks better than anything I've seen from my 4x5. This was probably shifted 5 or 6mm—as far as I'm comfortable going.
Thanks! I took a quick look at your image and to be honest, from what I saw at the largest size you posted, I wouldn't necessarily call that corner smearing....maybe just a touch, especially in right lower side corner. When one see's smearing, they'll know it!

EDIT: *** Please note, I originally said lower "left" corner...I meant lower "right hand side" croner has the touch of smearing.

Oh, you'd be surprised how many "nose prints" I find on some 36" prints I've shown to pixel peepers...LOL!

Interesting image! Look at all those hand painted signs saying "Exit" with an arrow showing the way out. Something tells me that someone realized that with one strike of a match and the place would be an inferno!

Dave (D&A)
 
Thanks! I took a quick look at your image and to be honest, from what I saw at the largest size you posted, I wouldn't necessarily call that corner smearing....maybe just a touch, especially in right lower side corner. When one see's smearing, they'll know it!
Yes, agreed, I think this is an example of the lens working well. Smearing gets troublesome when the lens is shifted more than this.

Something tells me that someone realized that with one strike of a match and the place would be an inferno!
That's a building a bunch of friends/neighbors of mine got evicted from. After the landlord got denied his zoning variance application, he torched it. It was a major inferno. Eventually the variation went through, and he's using the insurance (I assume) to rebuild it and turn it into luxury lofts.

The contractors know quite well now how flamable it is!

I've been sneaking in with a camera ...
 

vieri

Well-known member
I'm on either side of the 28 with the Zeiss 25 F2 was not impressed with the Zeiss 28 F2 and than I have the Sigma 35 1.4 so really don't need a 28mm prime but for PR type shooting 28 is nice to have so than I use the Nikon 24-70 which at 28mm is pretty good.
Guy, interesting to hear that you didn't l like the Zeiss 28 f2: I'd be grateful if you could expand a bit on your reasons why. Also, how do you like the 25? Thanks in advance! :D
 

vieri

Well-known member
Dave, the Schneider I'm describing complicates things a bit by being a shift lens. Unshifted it's amazing, shifted a bit it's usually amazing (but no guarantees), shifted a lot it's terrible. There are other variables that have to be managed also, and some that I may not have figured out yet.

Here's an example that I think looks good. There's a bit of smearing in the corners, but you'd have to print bigger than 36" and stick your nose in to notice. In a 24" print it looks better than anything I've seen from my 4x5. This was probably shifted 5 or 6mm—as far as I'm comfortable going.
Paul, how much "safe" shift would you say you can get with your28 Schneider before things start to get ugly?
 
Paul, how much "safe" shift would you say you can get with your28 Schneider before things start to get ugly?
5mm is always a safe bet. 6mm if I'm not anticipating printing big. If there's no important detail in the upper corners (sky, etc) then of course you can go all the way to 11.

When shifted more than a mm or two the lens looks best stopped down to f16. I was afraid of diffraction the first few times I tried this, but found no significant degradation after sharpening. Most of the work I'm doing requires small apertures for DOF anyhow.

A couple of times when I've needed more shift, I've gone 5mm with the lens and then pointed up, and fixed the convergence in photoshop. Not ideal, but a reasonable compromise.
 

vieri

Well-known member
Thank you Paul, 5-6 mm is not too bad. I cannot safely go much more than that with the Nikkor 24mm as well, though I expected the Schneider to be much better than the Nikkor... Of course, having sky in the upper part of the image is the great fixer :D
 

D&A

Well-known member
Of course, having sky in the upper part of the image is the great fixer :D
...and along with sky in upper part of image, calm "still" water in the lower part of the image...where the only detail is in the middle :) Problem of excessive shift induced corner smearing solved! LOL!

Serious though, it's a bit frustrating where these manufacturers provide the degree of possible shifting but half way through, results significantly deteriorate. Of course part of the problem is some of these lenses were designed in the era when DSLR's were of the 6-12MP variety and not 24 or 36MP.

Dave (D&A)
 
I've rented the Nikkor. I thought its performance was more consistent. In other words, the Schneider is both better and worse. I prefer the Schneider, because after figuring out its limitations I can get remarkable results. The Nikkor was just pretty good. Although I was using the Nikkor on a D3S ... maybe I would have liked it even less on the d800.

Of course part of the problem is some of these lenses were designed in the era when DSLR's were of the 6-12MP variety and not 24 or 36MP.
Definitely the case here. Leica commissioned this lens from Schneider around 1999. And Schneider repurposed an older optical design. It's a '90s era 28mm digitar, with a floating element added. It was never one of their best lenses, but their only superwide with enough retrofocus to clear a dslr's mirror box.

I can't wait to see the new version later this year.
 

D&A

Well-known member
I've rented the Nikkor. I thought its performance was more consistent. In other words, the Schneider is both better and worse. I prefer the Schneider, because after figuring out its limitations I can get remarkable results. The Nikkor was just pretty good. Although I was using the Nikkor on a D3S ... maybe I would have liked it even less on the d800.

Definitely the case here. Leica commissioned this lens from Schneider around 1999. And Schneider repurposed an older optical design. It's a '90s era 28mm digitar, with a floating element added. It was never one of their best lenses, but their only superwide with enough retrofocus to clear a dslr's mirror box.

I can't wait to see the new version later this year.
I also used the Schneider for quite a few years prior to switching to the Nikon and your observations/findings closely parallel mine. Without shift, the Schneider was exceptionally good on 12MP and older bodies compared to the Nikon but when shifted beyond 6 degrees, the Nikon moved ahead. Although I haven't used the Schneider on a 36MP body, but from what I've seen of the Nikon, I'd have to say it's probably keeps it's superiorty when shifted but has of course lost some of it's mojo on these high MP bodies.

I too am looking forward to the redesign of the Schneider. The current older version first caught my eye when Leica marketed it under it's own name, as you mentioned.

Dave (D&A)
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member

Speaking about shift lenses I have just shown these two sample shots with the Nikon PC-Nikkor 28mm f/3.5 shift lens in my for sale thread.
I have usually used my PC-Nikkor at f/8 to get enough depth of field and at the same time avoid diffraction to be visible, and with a max shift of ~ 7mm to avoid the light rays to become too stretched.
The in-focus plane shows some field curvature that makes it better for curved sceneries than plane subjects as you may be able to see in the first picture, shot at f/8 and 7mm shift.
The next picture from inside the church shows that it performs better inside the curved church room, I think. Again f/8 and 7mm shift.
I don't know how it compares to e.g. the Schneider and the new PC-Nikkors, as the PC-Nikkor 28mm f/3.5 is the only shift lens I have ever owned.
And though I have read many statements about the Schneiders and the new PC-Nikkors I have seen very few illustrations.

If you are interested in this PC lens you can see my for sale thread here:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs...28mm-f-3-5-shift-lens-400-eur.html#post501127



©lick for native size (7 Mb)


© • Nikon D800E • PC-Nikkor 3.5/28mm • 1/180 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • 7mm shift • Capture NX2




©lick for native size (5.3 Mb)


© • Nikon D800E • PC-Nikkor 3.5/28mm • 1/2 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • 7mm shift • Capture NX2
 

robsteve

Subscriber
In the primes, the Leica 28mm f2.8 is probably the best, with the Leica 21-35mm in the 28mm range being even better than the Leica prime at the edges and as good in the middle. Both of these are quite expensive and fiddly to work with and a decent Nikon zoom will probably do.

The Leica 28mm PC is also pretty good, not as high in contrast as the Leica 28mm f2.8, but very even performance across the frame.
 

robsteve

Subscriber
Do you mean in the 28mm focal lens primes or in the Leica R primes?

I agree on the former and disagree on the latter.
Not quite sure what you are getting at here. I was referring to prime lenses that I have used on the Nikon. The modern Leica M lenses would perform better than the R lens, but would not work on a Nikon SLR.
 

Alon

Not Available
It is pretty simple really.

You state "the Leica 28mm f2.8 is probably the best"

You are making a statement and I am asking for a clarification.
The Leica 28 prime is probably best in which classification?

Are you refering to all the Leica R primes or to all the 28mm focals?

In other words, is the Leica R 28mm, the best prime across all brands or across all Leica R primes?
 

robsteve

Subscriber
It is pretty simple really.

You state "the Leica 28mm f2.8 is probably the best"

You are making a statement and I am asking for a clarification.
The Leica 28 prime is probably best in which classification?

Are you refering to all the Leica R primes or to all the 28mm focals?

In other words, is the Leica R 28mm, the best prime across all brands or across all Leica R primes?
The Leica 28mm is the best of the 28mm prime reflex lenses that I have used. There are better Leica R primes, but not better Leica 28mm R primes.

I am still not getting what you are trying to ask or are you just trying to say there are better 28mm lenses than the Leica 28mm R? I am just offering my own opinion.
 
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