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I started to see the limtations of the trinity

Tektrader

Member
You want to have lenses that will allow for more technical quality in ("BIG") prints than what your 24-70 and 70-200 provide when used without serious care for technique ("80% of the time"). That's not going to happen: when you throw technique out the window, luck will make more difference in image quality than any lens upgrade. Your technical demands exceed what can be obtained through casual shooting. But I think you know that, so, moving on...

Cheers,
Jon
Thanks for the considered reply Jon. You are pretty right MOSTLY...

But I don't expect to receive top end Technical Quality when used carelessly. But I was hoping to replace the zooms with lenses that when used carefully can really deliver. But can be lazily used when ultimate quality and big prints are not a driving factor.

I didn't really want to have 2 kits. A lazy mans one and an excellent one for when I am after ultimate quality. :D

I am beginning to think maybe it would be enough to buy a Nikkor 45mm T/S lens for most serious landscape work and just keep the rest. IMO 50mm is too narrow a focal length for most landscapes. Maybe 45mm is a better choice.

BTW, If I could buy some reasonable priced Leica R lenses I would entertain buying a few...... Are those Leitax conversion kits good enough and do they have Nikon meter coupling chips for Leica lenses now?
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I almost didn't reply to this, but here goes:

First, kudos for publicly admitting the holy trio isn't adequate :D. The issue almost every shooter realizes after a time, is that perfect resolution, perfect optical performance, and even perfect framing (a-la zoom) don't count for as much in overall image quality as 'character.' So most of us start to build a few different set of lenses; one for convenience (usually zooms and almost always AF), one for superior optical performance (and very often these are manual focus) and one for a certain look/character/drawing/rendering, whichever you want to call it -- and REGARDLESS of who made it or articulations it takes to set aperture or focus, we'll figure out a way to mount it to our camera body of choice so we can use it ;).

Some "bitingly sharp" suggestions: the 85/1.4G stopped down to f2.8 or higher; the 105's are all excellent from f2.8 up, the 1.8, 2.5 or 2.0 DC with DC zeroed; the ZF 135 may be the single sharpest lens I have ever seen used on a digital camera period but it is MF only; the 200/2 is a very close second if not a tie with the ZF135 for optical performance and is AF. Ironically, at the shorter end, I've found the 28/1.4 to be outstanding when stopped down past f2.8, though not quite in the league of the 85/1.4G; and finally the Sigma 35/1.4 is excellent and on par with the 85/1.4G. The difficult arena is the 50's -- currently, the best lens I've used in this range is the 50/1.2 manual focus stopped down to f2.8 up. I have yet to find any 50mm AF lens that hits the level of the 85/1.4G.

Good luck in building your own stable, it will likely be a journey with no final destination.
 

vieri

Well-known member
In my experience, and for my use (landscape work, often well stopped down) the holy trinity is less and less adequate on the D800E moving from tele to WA. The best is still the 70-200 VR II, then comes the 24-70 and last the 14-24, which IMHO doesn't quite cut it on the D800E.

I have been experimenting with the Zeiss 18mm, which I found VERY sharp all over the frame past f4-f5.6 but which has some other problems troubling it (vignetting and profile-needing distortion) to replace the 14-24, and will try the 15mm as well.

As far as f1.4 prime Nikkors, I have them all (except the new 58mm), I have tested them all with my usual methodology (see MY BLOG for reviews of some lenses) and in my experience the 24 f1.4 is simply amazing on the D800E, while the 35 f1.4 much less so (it shows a very strange field curvature, images are just not perfectly sharp at any aperture 2/3 off the center to become real sharp again at the sides/corners); the 50 f1.4 is definitely very very good, and the 85 f1.4 is pretty amazing.

The three tilt-shift: the 85 is amazing, the 45 less so but perfectly usable on the D800E and the 24 is the weakest (weak sides / corners). If you use movements, the 85 is amazing whatever you do, the 45 up to half way the movements, the 24 loses a lot.

The DCs: the 105 is very good, the 135 pretty amazing.

The Sigma 35mm f1.4: I got a real bad copy and sent it back, didn't bother with trying a second one but might reconsider it seeing everyone is so happy about it. I have it in Sigma mount for my SD1 Merrill and it's simply amazing, however it's an APS-C sized sensor so that should be taken into account.

The Zeiss: I have only the 18mm, but am getting the 35mm f2 soon, which is probably better than the f1.4 for landscape work.

The Leica R: I had the 50mm f1.4, 80mm f1.4 and 180mm f2.8, all amazing lenses.

Hope this helps you in your never ending quest for the ultimate kit! (No such thing, sadly: but in the end, the search is always more interesting than the result...)
 

Tektrader

Member
Thanks for all the replies,

Seems I see the Nikkor 45 T/S in my future. I will probably swap the Nikkor 50 F1.8 for a 50 F1.4 and save some cash for the Nikkor 85 F1.4 (actually had the 85 F1.8 but it was total rubbish and sent it back) The thing that irks me about the Nikkor 85's is the crazy amount of LOCA they all seem to have. Don't get why for the money they want it couldn't have been APO in design.

I have seen varying opinions of the 105 DC. I am not sure if that is really good enough for landscape but I expect if very good for portraits. I suspect soft corners. All the older D lenses seemed to suffer that.

Other alternative is 28 or 35mm manual focus Zeiss or equivalent in Leica R and skip the T/S lens.

How difficult is the Leica conversion to get full metering ? Any particular LeicaR 35mm lens I should be looking for? They seem to have plenty of versions.

Vieri, given the choice would you buy a 35mm Leica R or the 45mm Nikkor T/S for landscape?
 

ryc

Member
Zeiss! 15mm, 21mm, 55mm, and 135 :)

Everyone else will tell you why. I will just tell you these are all you need and you will never look back.

Otus



50mm AFS G




Otus



50 AFS G

 

vieri

Well-known member
Well, I never tried a Leica R 35mm on the D800E or on any Nikon camera for that matter, but I suspect the Cron (f2) should be very good. The 45mm is a very good lens, but for landscapes I suggest you take it easy on the tilt-shift :D If you go past half-way the movements, you'll start seeing softness in the sides & corners.

I had the 105 DC and found it great for portraits, less so for landscape (soft corners/sides on the D800E), while the 135 is a more "all round" lens: great for portraits, but very very good for landscapes as well.

Converting Leica R lenses using the Leitax solutions is very very easy if you are just a bit handy, no superhuman skills required for most lenses; Leitax website has all the infos you need, and will tell you which kit to get for what lens, and which lenses are more difficult than others to adapt.
 

Tektrader

Member
The Otus is nice..... real nice, might be a bit out of my price range though..

The 85mm f1.8 I sent back had horrendous LOCA.

Doesn't look like the f1.4 is that much better......

Ok, got to start looking for a Leica R. 35mm. After listening to you guys, it looks like this will be the way to go for one lens solution for landscape shots. Maybe later an 85 t/s for stitched panos.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
If you plan on using Leica R glass ..you should do you homework on each lens . The 35/1.4 for example has too much field curvature for landscape ..its a superb lens for street,travel,reportage and general available light work . Its best attribute is the wonderful bokeh … a smooth roll off from focus to out of focus areas . The 35/1.4 requires major filing of the rear housing …I had DAG do my lens and it took two tries to get it right .

I am pretty sure both the 28/2.8 and the 35/2 also have substantial field curvature which screws up your desired edge sharpness on some images . The 19/2.8 is the best all around Leica R wide angle …

Each of your wide angle alternatives will have strengths and weaknesses ..start saving for the OTUS line ..they are the only lenses I ve seen that except for size seem perfect .
 

AreBee

Member
Roger,

Each of your wide angle alternatives will have strengths and weaknesses ..start saving for the OTUS line ..they are the only lenses I ve seen that except for size seem perfect .
Some photographers have experienced problems when shooting the Otus in cold climes. Refer here (post 7 onward) for details.

Not good if definitely an issue.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Your original post states that the "trinity isn't cutting it any longer". So when did it actually cut it? I'm not being smug, but lenses don't generally degrade performance as you shoot. Perhaps as most photographers do, a desire to improve technique sometimes equates to better lenses. You've stated the AF is a must, so your choices are limited a bit. Look at DXO's lens ratings or LensRentals for some objective reviews. With landscape and MF lenses, that's part of the joy of being contemplative with your art. Prime lenses have fewer elements, and 1.4's can have CA when shooting with high contrast, but landscape is usually stopped down for more DOF. Leica R's are overpriced and do require special skills as Roger has stated. If AF is a must I would seriously consider the 24mm 1.4, 85mm1.4, and the 200 f/2 or even the 200mm f/4 macro. If you need the quick range of a zoom or need just one or two lenses for travel, then personally, I think you have a great setup as is.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Roger,



Some photographers have experienced problems when shooting the Otus in cold climes. Refer here (post 7 onward) for details.

Not good if definitely an issue.
Not being much of a landscape photographer and living in Florida half the year …I will probably not test much for this . But a good point for those considering buying into the line of lenses .
 

Tektrader

Member
Your original post states that the "trinity isn't cutting it any longer". So when did it actually cut it? I'm not being smug, but lenses don't generally degrade performance as you shoot. Perhaps as most photographers do, a desire to improve technique sometimes equates to better lenses. You've stated the AF is a must, so your choices are limited a bit. Look at DXO's lens ratings or LensRentals for some objective reviews. With landscape and MF lenses, that's part of the joy of being contemplative with your art. Prime lenses have fewer elements, and 1.4's can have CA when shooting with high contrast, but landscape is usually stopped down for more DOF. Leica R's are overpriced and do require special skills as Roger has stated. If AF is a must I would seriously consider the 24mm 1.4, 85mm1.4, and the 200 f/2 or even the 200mm f/4 macro. If you need the quick range of a zoom or need just one or two lenses for travel, then personally, I think you have a great setup as is.

Happened as soon as I started printing large and could see the whole picture properly. Yes the loca on most 1.4's is an issue. So the search for edge sharpness start.

Any opinions on voightlander wides?
 

JonPB

New member
I don't know how well the electronics work with a Leitax adapted lens on Nikon, but the mechanics are solid.

The rest of this assumes that you're going to keep your Nikon zooms for casual shooting, that you're willing to work with a manual lens the rest of the time, and that you're looking for a moderately wide angle between 24mm and 50mm. As such, you'll probably be using a tripod and stopping down the lens. If that's the case, I'm not sure I can recommend Leica. All of the older wide lenses, including all of the 35's, have soft corners by modern standards, and the modern wides--the 19, 28, and 21-35--are all expensive. The R system is where I put my money because of their holistic performance. If I knew I wouldn't be using a lens wide open, though, I think I'd go for a different route.

The MTF graph at photodo.com for the Zeiss C/Y 35-70/3.4 at f/8 is very, very good. At 35mm and f/8 it outperforms the Leica R 28/2.8, which is among the best 28mm lenses, as well as the 21-35, up to the extreme corners where the 35-70/3.4 is a bit softer but remains competitive. Resolution is flat across the frame until it drops off steeply, though, which may not be preferable to the more consistent performance of the Leicas. The Zeiss doesn't show the focal plane waviness or astigmatism of the Leicas, though, and has comparable vignetting and distortion. It costs about a third of either of the Leicas and also performs equally well from 35mm to 70mm. It just doesn't deliver the same exceptional results at wider apertures and it uses a one-touch zoom/focus mechanism, so it isn't as popular and costs less.

If the Zeiss 35-70 is in the running, the Leica 35-70/4 should also be. It has better corners though is slightly worse through most of the frame and it has more astigmatism. It costs more, but that's for wide-open performance, where it takes the Zeiss for a walk, and two-touch operation.

Note that these zooms came about when zoom lens design was starting to be well understood, and these zooms take advantage of the extra lens elements used in zooming to correct for near-edge performance, which is how they can be better there than most every prime in existence. Nikon and Canon have focused on fast or wide-range zooms (which have to deal with far more aberration than slower or narrower-range lenses), and consumer zooms (where price is more important than optical quality). If Nikon came out with an expensive, slow aperture, and narrow range zoom, that's probably exactly what you'd want to buy. But they haven't, which is why I suggest these Leica and Zeiss zooms for consideration.

That said, the Zeiss 35mm f/2 comes in ZF mount, so the metering and exif data should work like with a Nikon lens, appears to be at least as good as the 35-70/3.4, and slots between that lens and the Leica 28/2.8 in price. The Sigma 35/1.4 is reportedly excellent, and autofocuses to boot, but I don't have any reliable MTF graphs to analyze for it and the large maximum aperture makes me hesitant about it. I don't know anything about the T/S lens, though its larger image circle bodes well for corner performance. As these lenses can be bought new, they can also probably be rented for thorough testing against your workflow.

While I've used a few of these lenses, most of my thoughts here come from looking at MTF qraphs. They're most useful for predicting how in-focus images will look but they still don't tell the whole story, so, of course, look at sample images before buying.

Anyhow--that's my ranting for today about good wide lenses for stopped down work. Let us know what you decide on and how it works out after a few prints!

Cheers,
Jon
 

Photojazz

Member
The 45 T/S is scary sharp on the D800E. I no longer have a D800E right now, but the 45 was among my best lenses mounted on it.

People kept throwing Zeiss options at you when you were saying AF.

Get the 24mm 1.4G, the 85 1.4G, and the 45 T/S, and use your feet. A 135 2.0 DC is a nice option on the tele that doesn't get a lot of love these days. The Zeiss 135 would be tons sharper (but not AF), but if you want character, the 135DC has it.

Doug
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
The main listed difference is electronic aperture control. But IIRC, the old version may not matrix meter with newer bodies?
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I stopped using the 2.8/14-24 and 2.8/24-70 already years ago, as I was not really happy with the IQ I got combined with the heft and weight of these lenses.

The only one I still use and love is the 2.8/70-200 VRII.
 

jduncan

Active member
Well after a few months of shooting, its becoming pretty obvious the trinity isn't cutting it any longer.

The 24-70 has quite bad soft corners and fairly crappy Bokeh, The 70-200 needs different microfocus at each end and ordinary Bokeh.

Zoom functions seem more of a distraction these days than an advantage.

14-24 seems OK

Question is, what primes to replace the 2 with, keeping in mind I want bitingly sharp lenses, AF and strong corner performance?

Would love a 200 F2 but cant float that kind of money....

Suggestions?
A new art prime from Sigma :

50mm F1.4 DG HSM | Art - Standard Prime Lenses - SigmaPhoto.com

Not tested yet, but the formula looks good.
Best regards,

J. Duncan
 

Photojazz

Member
When you say old 45 T/S, I am not sure what you are talking about. I only remembered an 85 in the old PC lens, which I owned long ago, but there was a old old 28 I believe. Then they came with the new 24/45/85 TS lenses. But I don't eat sleep and breath lenses nowadays. My 45 is about 3 years old. I bought it new Dec 2010 I think, that's when the first shot was made with it. So it was the "new version" batch. Unless they have made changes in the last 3 years, mine is current.

It would be highly unlikely for another new version to have come out in 3-5 years. I think the last version was about 5-6 years old total, is that right? I had a 24 TS before my 45 for a year or so I got used. I miss the 24, but love the 45.
 
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