Nikon Orange Peel

[Amin]

I'm waiting for my dad to return from a trip so I can borrow his D810 for testing. In the meanwhile, I decided to test this idea that "orange peel" texturing is a uniquely Sony phenomenon by going back through my Lightroom (LR) catalogue and looking at my 14-bit D600 files while using the sharpening settings Tim Ashley shared in another thread.

Literally the first file I opened in LR - bam, orange peel (OP). Shown here at 200% (same magnification Lloyd Chambers uses to demonstrate Sony OP):

Raw file for download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B93HF6w-u-VXeVRhZ011S0syV2M/view?usp=sharing


RawDigger histogram for this file:

I maintain that this OP phenomenon is a LR thing and not unique to Sony files.


If anyone is wondering whether the OP in this Nikon file is visible at 100% in LR, the answer is yes:

 

[Amin]

I downloaded a 14-bit ISO 64 D810 NEF from Photography Blog, applied the same sharpening settings in LR, and again OP texture was immediately apparent:

The raw file is available for download on this page (second to last one available on the page - nikon_d810_19.nef).


Once again, I didn't have to look hard. Was the first D810 file I checked.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Thanks Amin. Interesting.

Question: By how much has one to reduce sharpening parameters to get rid of the OP effect?

To me it looks like just reducing the Detail parameter helps tremendously.

 

[Amin]

Joe, I don't see this orange peel in C1 using any of these Nikon or Sony cameras. From what I can tell, it is an artifact of the way LR applies sharpening. As for the large print question, give me a few minutes to print one of these and I'll tell you.

I subscribed to Diglloyd recently, and as soon as I saw his subscriber-only Sony OP examples, I was pretty sure I had seen that effect before in LR from a number of different non-Sony cameras.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Setting the Detail parameter to 0 gets rid of OP effect entirely.

Thanks Joe. I finally noticed that as well.

I found playing with Amin's raw file that I can get rid of the OP effect by lowering the Detail setting alone in CS6's ACR. No need to change the other parameters.

 

[Amin]

Setting the Detail parameter to 0 gets rid of OP effect entirely.

That's interesting. This OP phenomenon is a non-issue to me, regardless, because I use C1 and don't see it there. Both Lloyd Chambers (on his subscriber pages) as well as posts by Tim Ashley (who like Lloyd notes OP as a Sony-specific phenomenon in his experience) have at one point or another suggested the exact settings I used, including the Detail value of 70, as a starting point for sharpening in LR under certain circumstances.


To answer Joe's earlier question, I just printed the D600 image at 13x19 (316 PPI), and at the closest distance I can manage before presbyopia becomes limiting, I am questioning whether I can detect the faintest trace of the effect. For all practical purposes, I can't see it.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Thanks Amin for starting this thread.
I hope those folks will put that (non-)issue to rest.

 

[Amin]

FYI, I shoot with an a7RII, a7R IR conversion, D810 and 645Z, all of which have Sony sensors. So I have skin in the game.

Joe, those who have identified OP as an issue have been saying it only applies to Sony cameras, not other brand cameras which use Sony sensors. It was suggested by Lloyd Chambers that OP texture is a result of "heavily cooked", lossy compression used by Sony cameras. My belief is that OP is not an issue of any sort but rather an effect which can be generated by LR when using certain sharpening settings on files from any number of cameras.

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

This effect isn't only present into Nikon/Sony hybrids but also into the Nikon/Renesas hybrids. The D3/D700 show the same effect, either in LR or CNX/ViewNX.
While some might see a "default", I do not. I also think it is rather a feature than a default. C1 do not show it that much but it can be spotted time to time. I call it organic texturing rather than cellulite and find it have no effect whatsoever in any kind of printing. I print A0 out of D700 and it is not even visible.

This is a photographer/pixelpeeper problem rather than a real issue, especially for the client. The client won't see it and even fine art collectors aren't that picky.

I do not know about "OP" with Sony files but Sony users should not worry about it since it is more than a minor issue. Nothing to write home about, Imho. I go dig into my archival because I have a perfect example of it, I remember. I'll post it latter.

Lloyd is WRONG if he say that about Nikon NEF raws in 14 bits uncompressed mode.

 

[Amin]

Then for meI'll continue to restrain myself from getting into the debate about what Lloyd Chambers reported. Life's too short. Take photographs. Capture memories. :salute:

Joe

I admire that. I usually try to take the high road also but didn't do manage it this last time .

 

[Amin]

Lloyd is WRONG if he say that about Nikon NEF raws in 14 bits uncompressed mode.

No, he did not say that at all. However, he showed a 200% crop of a Sony file showing the same kind of effect I showed in this thread and referred to it as an orange peel effect which he attributed to the Sony camera raw format.

IMO, any time you are showing something at 200%, it isn't worth showing. The only reason I'm doing it here is because that's how it was demonstrated by LC, who as far as I know, was the first to make something out of this.

 

[Steen]

Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel

Joe, I don't see this orange peel in C1 using any of these Nikon or Sony cameras. From what I can tell, it is an artifact of the way LR applies sharpening. (...)

I was pretty sure I had seen that effect before in LR from a number of different non-Sony cameras.

So why the misleading headline if you are aware it's not a hardware issue but an Adobe software issue ... ?

Lightroom ver-5 conversion, default settings, no tweaks at all -- 100 % crop

Capture One Pro ver-8 conversion, default settings, no tweaks at all -- 100 % crop

Capture NX-D ver-1 conversion, default settings, no tweaks at all -- 100 % crop

​

​

.

 

[Steen]

Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel


I've seen this so many times before which is why I never upgraded Lightroom after version 5

The Lightroom ver-5 conversion -- screendump of a zoomed 300 % crop viewed in Photoshop Elements

Capture One Pro ver-8 conversion -- screendump of a zoomed 300 % crop viewed in Photoshop Elements

Capture NX-D ver-1 conversion -- screendump of a zoomed 300 % crop viewed in Photoshop Elements

​

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

I do not use LR anymore, nor Nikon applications but I found a ViewNX D700 conversion from last year. This ain't noise and can be more visible time to time, like you are able to see the micro-lens pattern on top of the sensor. Maybe this effect is induced by micro lenses ? Anyway, I like it look like the grain out of a Frontier.

100% - Effect is always more visible in out of focus areas anyway.

So it seems that renesas sensors benefit of this effect too.

... or that LR / ViewNX are just sub par abominations. I do not know if the new NX version or Capture NX bring better results.

No, he did not say that at all. However, he showed a 200% crop of a Sony file showing the same kind of effect I showed in this thread and referred to it as an orange peel effect which he attributed to the Sony camera raw format.
IMO, any time you are showing something at 200%, it isn't worth showing. The only reason I'm doing it here is because that's how it was demonstrated by LC, who as far as I know, was the first to make something out of this.

Ha ok. Pardon me I do not read Llyod. There is too much drama Queens / attention whores on this planet. Wont "read" them

 

[Steen]

Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel

(...) I do not know if the new NX version or Capture NX bring better results. (...)

I for one believe that Capture NX2 and Capture NX-D both use the same demosaicing engine

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/5...ocessor.html?highlight=demosaicing#post592498

Still the most accurate color rendition for NEF files in my humble opinion, and I've never seen any Orange Peel artifacts with either.

Your mileage ... et cetera .-)

 

[Amin]

Re: Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel

So why the misleading headline if you are aware it's not a hardware issue but an Adobe software issue ... ?

I was speaking with tongue in cheek. There has been a lot of talk about Sony camera orange peel that never ever shows up with Nikon cameras, and I wanted to demonstrate that in fact it is a software issue that can be seen in Nikon cameras as well.

I could just as easily have made it "Leica orange peel" or "Fisher price camera" orange peel. Didn't mean to offend any Nikon users!

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

Can't resist

 

[k-hawinkler]

Re: Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel

I for one believe that Capture NX2 and Capture NX-D both use the same demosaicing engine

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/5...ocessor.html?highlight=demosaicing#post592498

Still the most accurate color rendition for NEF files in my humble opinion, and I've never seen any Orange Peel artifacts with either.

Your mileage ... et cetera .-)

I agree with that. That software though isn't perfect either.
I have an image in which both Capture NX2 and Capture NX-D make a distant tree look like cabbage whereas C1 has no problem getting it right.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I don't really know to recognise the orange peel effect. I recall Lloyd's original article and I couldn't identify the issue in his images. It would help to put some marker indicating where the problem lies.

Just to say, we have different sensivity to different problems. In general, I don't see Diglloid's orange peel. On the other hand I am quite sensitive to colour aliasing and aliasing in general and also axial chromatic aberration. We are sort of different.

I have noticed on both Diglloyd's (I used to be a subscriber to his site) and Tim Ashley's pages that they sharpen a bit aggressively, something that enhances noise. Now, Lightroom has masking which disables sharpening where gradients are small (sorry for the techno speak). This gives cause to bad edges. As usual we need to get a good compromise between sharpening and masking.

Now, I see a lot of actual pixel peeping and extreme sharpening. I do that, too. But, in a real world, large images are not intended to be viewed at actual pixels. making prints is a great equaliser.

Now, I note that Lightroom has two presets, "Portrait" and "Landscape", those have been developed by Jeff Schewe, the guy who wrote the book on sharpening with the late Bruce Frazer. Jeff's settings are intended for printing, of course. But sharpening for "bragging factors" at actual pixels may be a bad choice for any way pictures are published.

A small hint, use the Landscape preset and sharpen say 20% at 3.0 pixels radius in Photoshop. The latter operation applies sharpening in the area that is affecting our vision.

Best regards
Erik

I'm waiting for my dad to return from a trip so I can borrow his D810 for testing. In the meanwhile, I decided to test this idea that "orange peel" texturing is a uniquely Sony phenomenon by going back through my Lightroom (LR) catalogue and looking at my 14-bit D600 files while using the sharpening settings Tim Ashley shared in another thread.

Literally the first file I opened in LR - bam, orange peel (OP). Shown here at 200% (same magnification Lloyd Chambers uses to demonstrate Sony OP):

Raw file for download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B93HF6w-u-VXeVRhZ011S0syV2M/view?usp=sharing


RawDigger histogram for this file:

I maintain that this OP phenomenon is a LR thing and not unique to Sony files.


If anyone is wondering whether the OP in this Nikon file is visible at 100% in LR, the answer is yes:

 

[k-hawinkler]

Hi,

I don't really know to recognise the orange peel effect. I recall Lloyd's original article and I couldn't identify the issue in his images. It would help to put some marker indicating where the problem lies.

Just to say, we have different sensivity to different problems. In general, I don't see Diglloid's orange peel. On the other hand I am quite sensitive to colour aliasing and aliasing in general and also axial chromatic aberration. We are sort of different.

I have noticed on both Diglloyd's (I used to be a subscriber to his site) and Tim Ashley's pages that they sharpen a bit aggressively, something that enhances noise. Now, Lightroom has masking which disables sharpening where gradients are small (sorry for the techno speak). This gives cause to bad edges. As usual we need to get a good compromise between sharpening and masking.

Now, I see a lot of actual pixel peeping and extreme sharpening. I do that, too. But, in a real world, large images are not intended to be viewed at actual pixels. making prints is a great equaliser.

Now, I note that Lightroom has two presets, "Portrait" and "Landscape", those have been developed by Jeff Schewe, the guy who wrote the book on sharpening with the late Bruce Frazer. Jeff's settings are intended for printing, of course. But sharpening for "bragging factors" at actual pixels may be a bad choice for any way pictures are published.

A small hint, use the Landscape preset and sharpen say 20% at 3.0 pixels radius in Photoshop. The latter operation applies sharpening in the area that is affecting our vision.

Best regards
Erik

Well, I displayed Amin's image at 200% using Tim's sharpening parameters.
Then l looked at the image with a magnifying glass while varying the Detail parameter between 0% and 100%.
Can't miss it that way.