The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Upgrade your lensor sensor to 16mp?

DReilly

Member
I just spotted this over on DPReview. Seems that one Ricoh service rep has said it's possible to replace the 12mp sensor with the 16mp one. Even with M module. I'm dubious about this...isn't new firmware required to handle the extra data or the different imaging characteristics of the sensor (JPEG engine calibration, for example?)

If this is true, I'd say it's fairly big news. Anyone got any idea?

PHOTOBLOG

doug
 

Agnius

Member
Doug,

I think what Ricoh means that it is possible to buy A16-M module once it becomes announced. That's the beauty of GXR modular system. I don't think it is economically feasible to desolder the old sensor and replace it with a new one - it is not as simple as that anyways. Upgradeable sensor? From what I see, they are talking about 12MP Lensor modules, that way you would save the lens and get to use a new sensor. But still, it doesn't sound to easy of a job. Overall, I think this is a hoax. Is it April yet? ;)
 

Streetshooter

Subscriber Member
I had a conversation with a few members on different forums. The general feeling is that Ricoh would upgrade the sensor in the A12 units to A16 or so.
The key issue of course would be cost.
Myself, I'd probably entertain a 33-40% cost of a new unit. Any more than that and I think it would be a waste of money. This is a key advantage to having separate lensors.

If Ricoh actually does this, it would breathe new life into the GXR. I love the system as it is but any upgrade of course is welcomed.
This concept has to be something Ricoh thought about and I hope they did.
 
My understanding is that what makes different the sensor presently used in the M module from the other GXR sensors is the absence of an AA filter and the presence of microlenses, both features being jointly responsible for the very good performances of this module with the M lenses (including the non retrofocus ones).
Any replacement sensor, no matter what is the pixel count, should comply with this requirements to make any sense.
Considering that the other GXR modules are "lensors" whereas the M module is basically just a "sensor", does it make any economic sense the upgrade we are talking about?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
If Ricoh does it, it will be a first in the industry and I bet they'll do a great job of it.

But, I'm neither holding my breath nor particularly anxious to see it happen. All three camera units ... A12 28, 50 Macro, and Camera Mount ... are excellent performers just as is. What is the freekin big deal about having to upgrade everything constantly? Is no one ever satisfied that the excellent equipment they bought is actually good enough?

It's an insanity of the current milieu in photography.
 
If Ricoh does it, it will be a first in the industry and I bet they'll do a great job of it.

But, I'm neither holding my breath nor particularly anxious to see it happen. All three camera units ... A12 28, 50 Macro, and Camera Mount ... are excellent performers just as is. What is the freekin big deal about having to upgrade everything constantly? Is no one ever satisfied that the excellent equipment they bought is actually good enough?

It's an insanity of the current milieu in photography.
+1
 

Streetshooter

Subscriber Member
I agree completely but...the concept that I went for in the GXR is the adaptability and expandability. Say Ricoh comes out with a B&W sensor for the A12 units. That I would want as fast as possible. It should be more feasible financially than to change BODIES every 6 months or year. I love the camera and lensors and have had amazing responses to my work with it from all areas.

I don't think getting an upgrade in one form or another is a negative aspect to making images, far from it, I see it as a welcomed improvement on the final result.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Don, A B&W version of the A12- I will pay whatever it takes to get it.:)
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Don, A B&W version of the A12- I will pay whatever it takes to get it.:)
Why?

A monochrome-only capture device locks you to one spectral sensitivity ... you'll have to go back to using filters over the lens at capture time to adjust tonal separation of colors. Most of the gains in sensitivity will be negated by that.

Is that what you want?
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Why?

A monochrome-only capture device locks you to one spectral sensitivity ... you'll have to go back to using filters over the lens at capture time to adjust tonal separation of colors. Most of the gains in sensitivity will be negated by that.

Is that what you want?

I don't know what you mean. :confused:

A B&W sensor, in my book, means a sensor without the Bayer filter array. If the current A12 were to be made without the color filter but it has everything else (ie., the offset microlenses and the UV/IR cut filter) then it will be capable of imaging in the spectral region of ~400 to 650nm (blue to red) just like a panchromatic B&W film covering the entire spectral region unlike an orthochromatic film.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I agree completely but...the concept that I went for in the GXR is the adaptability and expandability. Say Ricoh comes out with a B&W sensor for the A12 units. That I would want as fast as possible. It should be more feasible financially than to change BODIES every 6 months or year. I love the camera and lensors and have had amazing responses to my work with it from all areas.

I don't think getting an upgrade in one form or another is a negative aspect to making images, far from it, I see it as a welcomed improvement on the final result.
Continued development is a good thing, I see nothing wrong with that. But what I read on this and every other equipment forum is an obsession with "new new more more new more better more new" and when what we already have to work with in cameras is stunningly capable.

A decade ago, the development of digital capture cameras was far less mature and every release of a new model was a quantum leap forward. (Although, that said, my nearly a decade old Olympus E-1 still produces stunningly beautiful photographs within the limits of its working domain of 5 Mpixels, ISO sensitivity up to ISO 800 and utterly lethargic write speed.) I know where the desire for better came from. But what we have now, even in relatively inexpensive cameras like the GXR, is just amazing.

I welcome new advancements, but why I automatically should need a 16 vs a 12 Mpixel sensor, or acceptable results at ISO 6400 vs ISO 3200, mystifies me. Does everyone shoot by candlelight 90% of the time and print to billboard sized images these days? I don't know about you, but greater than 90% of the photographs I look at and enjoy are displayed on a 1024x768 pixel display, with limited dynamic range, or are printed in even smaller book and magazine pages.

And just like I asked Vivek, why is a monochrome only sensor such a huge push for you? One of the massive advantages of rendering to monochrome with digital capture, to me, is the ability to selectively and fluidly adjust tonal translation of colors to gray tones in the rendering process ... you lose all that with a monochrome only sensor, you're locked to one spectral sensitivity curve unless you fit filters to your lenses at capture time. Why is that so appealing?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I don't know what you mean. :confused:

A B&W sensor, in my book, means a sensor without the Bayer filter array. If the current A12 were to be made without the color filter but it has everything else (ie., the offset microlenses and the UV/IR cut filter) then it will be capable of imaging in the spectral region of ~400 to 650nm (blue to red) just like a panchromatic B&W film covering the entire spectral region unlike an orthochromatic film.
Every black and white film, whether orthochromatic or panchromatic, has a signature sensitivity curve (records different colors of light differently) both built into its chemistry and affected by how it is processed. You adjust that sensitivity curve by filtering the light striking it with red, orange, yellow, green and blue filters in order to effect tonal separation of colors in the captured image. In the recorded image, there is no distinction as to whether the original subject reflected red, green or whatever color ... that is set, fixed by the recording medium. You cannot change it, only adjust the intensity.

With a color sensitive recording device, you have the information about the mix of red, green and blue at every point in the original scene. With that information, you can separate red from green, blue from yellow, and adjust those relationships in the rendered monochrome image.

A B&W sensor may be panchromatic, but you don't have any information in the captured data about what a particular color in the original was therefore you have no capability of manipulating tonal relationships based on original color after the fact. A color sensor allows you that dimension of control in your rendering process, and simplifies what you need to do (and carry) during the capture process.

This is the benefit of the evil Bayer array: it gives you rendering control, adds information into your captured data, where otherwise you have to make those adjustments yourself with filtration prior to capture.

I'd quite forgotten just how important this was in b&w film photography until I acquired the M4-2 in September and started shooting B&W film once more. I wondered why my images were all so flat looking ... and then I remembered: I used to always fit an orange or yellow filter for some subjects, a green or blue filter for others, a red filter for others. Once I started doing that, my results began to approach once more what I do with rendering monochrome from digital capture. It's a heck of a lot more work ...
 
V

Vivek

Guest
When dealing with lenses with not high performance, yes narrow spectral isolation help boost the tonality immensely.

Tone curves can be set in many modern cameras prior to taking a shot or afterwards.

The key advantage of a B&W sensor is to increase the light sensitivity due to the absence of the Bayer dyes.

Well corrected lenses and just 250nm spectral width (ie., 400 to 650nm) is not a problem.

If the camera sensor bleeds near UV and near IR, like the Leica M8, one has bigger problems to deal with.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
When dealing with lenses with not high performance, yes narrow spectral isolation help boost the tonality immensely.

Tone curves can be set in many modern cameras prior to taking a shot or afterwards.

The key advantage of a B&W sensor is to increase the light sensitivity due to the absence of the Bayer dyes.

Well corrected lenses and just 250nm spectral width (ie., 400 to 650nm) is not a problem.

If the camera sensor bleeds near UV and near IR, like the Leica M8, one has bigger problems to deal with.

I don't see how trying to separate red from green in grayscale tonal rendering has anything at all to do with what you've said above. You can't do this with a monochrome only sensor. You can only do it by knowing the spectral response of the sensor and filtering the light to suit, which negates the advantage of removing the filters from the bayer matrix sensor.

The quality of the lenses has nothing to do with it, nor does the total bandwidth of spectra the sensor can record.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
You asked a question. I answered. Now, if the sole purpose is to churn into to something else, as usual, I am out of that discussion.
 

Streetshooter

Subscriber Member
Godfrey, Vivek... Thanks for the explanation. You both explained things that I really never cared about. The reason is that I read what you both say and that's always been good enough for me. I trust your knowledge.
For me, I want a B&W sensor. Why? Just because I do.
 

Streetshooter

Subscriber Member
Ok, so back to the original idea. Not that the B&W sensor isn't...

I think of the GXR in a way that I think of my view cameras. Hold on....
You can change focal lengths, film formats, color, B&W etc. you can do macro or closups etc. it's completely adaptable.
The GXR is really similar in a way.
It's easy to configure the camera to suit your needs.

If an upgrade to the sensor is available, why not?
Why buy the 2 A12 units as I did and then have them go obsolete?
No one has mad a body with interchangeable sensors, to my knowledge.
To move up means to dump and re buy.

If the GXR can actually interchange sensors and firmware, that's the biggest plus in digital cameras yet. If not, the GXR won't survive the new wave about to come in.

Sure it's a great camera and will make great images for years to come. That's great but to advance technology, it has to be adaptable.

I think the Ricoh engineers know this and will do what must be done.
My thoughts, just from a guy that uses the camera to make photos.
Don
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
So, you and Vivek both want a B&W only sensor but cannot articulate a good reason why it has any advantage, despite the disadvantages I cited.

Ok, that's cool. I doubt anyone's going to make one anyway ... it will be such a tiny niche market it can't be profitable.

Ok, so back to the original idea. Not that the B&W sensor isn't...

I think of the GXR in a way that I think of my view cameras. Hold on....
You can change focal lengths, film formats, color, B&W etc. you can do macro or closups etc. it's completely adaptable.
The GXR is really similar in a way.
It's easy to configure the camera to suit your needs.

If an upgrade to the sensor is available, why not?
Why buy the 2 A12 units as I did and then have them go obsolete?
No one has mad a body with interchangeable sensors, to my knowledge.
To move up means to dump and re buy.

If the GXR can actually interchange sensors and firmware, that's the biggest plus in digital cameras yet. If not, the GXR won't survive the new wave about to come in.

Sure it's a great camera and will make great images for years to come. That's great but to advance technology, it has to be adaptable.

I think the Ricoh engineers know this and will do what must be done.
My thoughts, just from a guy that uses the camera to make photos.
Don
And as I said, I see nothing wrong with an upgrade to the A12 camera unit sensors if they offer it.

What I see as absurd is the constant push from everyone on these forums that they "have to have" some kind of upgrade, constantly. This is the consumerist attitude which sucks up more and more useless marketing spin about the supposed advantage of every inconsequential change, no matter how infinitesimal, to drive more sales.

I'll unsubscribe from this thread now. I wouldn't want my opinions to suggest a more pragmatic, sensible approach to equipment based on using and exploiting what it does rather than looking for the new features every ten minutes.
 

Streetshooter

Subscriber Member
Godfrey, we are all friends. You are very knowledgable as well as a fine shooter. If you leave this thread, it shall be noted as a loss.
Please, I ask in front of all... Reconsider your stance and share your knowledge.

I personally will appreciate it and would hate to suffer the loss.
Don
 
Top