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Thread: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

  1. #701
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    ISO 200 is max for me. Not sure if the other settings matter if you shoot raw. Get SPP and it is free.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Thanks Uwe,
    Yes I will be shooting raw, I read on DPreview, that actually ISO 200 offers better DR, though I am not sure this is true, and also how you setup SPP
    For example.
    The relationship between the Contrast settings, shadow,Highlight and fill light.
    I have read all kinds of crazy stuff like set shadow -2, HL +2 or maybe I got that mixed up.

    Then of course the whole sharpening debate. Sharpness at -1 ???

    Keeping all things equal, lets say I am shooting bright sunny day at ISO 100, using basic daylight for exposure F5.6 @ 1/800 sec and use daylight for WB...

    Lots of conflicting info out there in regards to SPP

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    I mostly use ISO200 and DR maybe higher (it is low anyway). Once you have raw files and play with them. I am easy going here. SPP is a mere pre-processor for me.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    Well I decided before I pull the trigger on a DP1m or DPM2,
    I rented both from lensrentals.com for this weekend.

    So to make sure I get the most out of my "evaluation"
    As of today, how should I setup the cameras?
    ISO 100, or 200?
    Sharpening setting in camera
    Noise setting
    Picture style

    Thanks

    Steven
    I would say try both ISO's I did mainly use 100 but today i used 400 as well because it was getting darker.

    Sharpening in camera; I did mainly zero and -2 (on advice of Quentin)

    Did not bother about noise settings yet.

    Picture style; neutral

    Put the camera on auto power off 30 seconds, it really helps enduring battery life. Also on 2 seconds display after shooting.

    Today I had a lot of out of focus pictures. Probably due to the glass windows I was focussing on. I am gonne try multi spot metering tommorow. Anybody having any issues with AF? Or do you use manuel focussing a lot?

    Michiel

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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    100 ISO. However, I will set 125, 160 or 200 ISO where necessary (make sure you have the updated firmware to allow 1/3 increments in setting ISO).

    Neutral colour setting, sunlight WB if outdoors (Auto WB is too cyan for my tastes - basically its just plain wrong!)

    Adobe RGB and turn down all NR and sharpening in camera. Shoot with +.3 to +.7 correction (expose for the shadows) using Aperture priority.

    In Sigma Photo Pro, My preference from the beginning has been to reduce exposure (see above) and increase x3 fill light a tad where necessary (and it usually is), without overdoing it.

    My practice with sharpening has changed. I now often leave on 0 in Sigma Photo Pro, or will reduce by up to -1 depending on the image. Its all personal preference, but the Sigma sharpening algorithms seem best suited to their sensor, so turning it off altogether no longer seems adviseable or necessary.

    Dial down Luminance NR by one notch. Turning it off altogether is a mistake if there is noise in the shadows.

    Export to a new folder for each shoot, TIFF-16 bit.

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    I had a lot of failures today.
    I must have touched the focus button to MF and forgot about the light and the sound.
    Quentin, do you use MF a lot or you leave it on AF/MF?
    Could it be that AF has trouble with glass windows?

    Michiel



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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Today's short walk at the farmers market (closed) featured the DP1M handheld. Dark & dull, but I just had to get out of the house for some fresh air.

    Last of the lotus in the market pond.


    LARGER

    Empty market


    LARGER

    Stall #40

    LARGER
    Carl
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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Thanks for all the tips Quentin.

    So incamera, you have sharpening set to?
    Everything else makes sense to me.
    Lastly, coming out of SPP 16bit tiff, I read there is a bug with the color management so I assume that's why you come out off SPP in Adobe RGB?

    Steven


    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    100 ISO. However, I will set 125, 160 or 200 ISO where necessary (make sure you have the updated firmware to allow 1/3 increments in setting ISO).

    Neutral colour setting, sunlight WB if outdoors (Auto WB is too cyan for my tastes - basically its just plain wrong!)

    Adobe RGB and turn down all NR and sharpening in camera. Shoot with +.3 to +.7 correction (expose for the shadows) using Aperture priority.

    In Sigma Photo Pro, My preference from the beginning has been to reduce exposure (see above) and increase x3 fill light a tad where necessary (and it usually is), without overdoing it.

    My practice with sharpening has changed. I now often leave on 0 in Sigma Photo Pro, or will reduce by up to -1 depending on the image. Its all personal preference, but the Sigma sharpening algorithms seem best suited to their sensor, so turning it off altogether no longer seems adviseable or necessary.

    Dial down Luminance NR by one notch. Turning it off altogether is a mistake if there is noise in the shadows.

    Export to a new folder for each shoot, TIFF-16 bit.

    Quentin
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    I had a lot of failures today.
    I must have touched the focus button to MF and forgot about the light and the sound.
    Quentin, do you use MF a lot or you leave it on AF/MF?
    Could it be that AF has trouble with glass windows?

    Michiel
    Very nice images Michiel. I've also un-intentionally hit that MF button occasionally. I have not had the need to use MF yet, but might if doing macro. You are the window expert Michiel, so we are relying on your verdict about AF and windows.
    Carl
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    I had a lot of failures today.
    I must have touched the focus button to MF and forgot about the light and the sound.
    Quentin, do you use MF a lot or you leave it on AF/MF?
    Could it be that AF has trouble with glass windows?

    Michiel



    Michiel

    What you got looks good though!

    I mainly use autofocus with manual assist occasionally, i.e. leave on AF/MF.
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Thanks Quentin and Carl

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quentin, Carl, Uwe and others who have been working with the DP2M.

    Could you please address the purple/green issues mentioned in my post above.
    I am strongly attracted to buying this camera, but am concerned about the issues that showed up on the linked image.
    thanks,
    Antara

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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    >I am strongly attracted to buying this camera, but am concerned about the issues that showed up on the linked image.

    Would also like to know what others are doing to prevent or fix it.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by antara View Post
    Quentin, Carl, Uwe and others who have been working with the DP2M.

    Could you please address the purple/green issues mentioned in my post above.
    I am strongly attracted to buying this camera, but am concerned about the issues that showed up on the linked image.
    thanks,
    Antara
    I have not noticed anything like this yet in the shots I've taken so I can't comment on the cause or a fix. There was some paranoia over at DPR about purple/green blotches, but I thought that was primarily a low light/high ISO issue, which is clearly not the case here.
    Carl
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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    >but I thought that was primarily a low light/high ISO issue, which is clearly not the case here.

    Sorry it is not.

    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Uwe
    If you processed this image differently, would the blotches be avoided?
    wondering if its is the raw software???

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    I don't know and would like to find out.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  18. #718
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    >but I thought that was primarily a low light/high ISO issue, which is clearly not the case here.

    Sorry it is not.
    Uwe, what you posted seems different and more subtle than the photo Antara referenced. Is it possible that the water just looked that way in reality?

    Regardless, this seems a relatively minor issue to me. Like Fuji orbs - one of those things where you can choose to either concentrate on what the camera can do or what it can't.

  19. #719
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Had also issues with water.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Uwe, what you posted seems different and more subtle than the photo Antara referenced. Is it possible that the water just looked that way in reality?

    Regardless, this seems a relatively minor issue to me. Like Fuji orbs - one of those things where you can choose to either concentrate on what the camera can do or what it can't.
    I thought the same. That type of reflective color variation on the ocean surface is not at all unusual. Here is a shot I took a few years ago with a Canon 5DII:
    Carl
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  21. #721
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    I thought the same. That type of reflective color variation on the ocean surface is not at all unusual.
    Thanks, Carl. I'm pretty sure I've seen it before with other cameras too. I actually like the way it looks in the referenced Sigma photo.

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    If we are still talking about the reference jpeg photo, I very specifically saw color patterns which were artifacts occurring and not just color in the water!
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    If you pixel peep the referenced jpeg, its not just large expanses of color shift,like Carl's, or subtle blotches, like Uwe's. Strange, it doesn't look as bad as I remember. When checking it out in Photoshop it appears that the green channel needs a slight adjustment and then it smooths out. Is this what I vaguely remember people talking about the greens either here or at dpr?

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Here is a quote from the sigma forum at dpr.

    Dear fellow Sigma enthusiasts...

    After two days with the Sigma DP1M, here are my observations. I state them in comparison to the DP2M which I own as well:

    whereas the DP2M has a slight green cast (easliy corrected with +2M in SPP), the DP1M has a slight magenta cast (1C+1Y in SPP)

    Maybe thats all that is needed to correct.

  25. #725
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by antara View Post
    If you pixel peep the referenced jpeg, its not just large expanses of color shift,like Carl's, or subtle blotches, like Uwe's.
    Still looks to me like something which could be natural.

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Still looks to me like something which could be natural.
    I am going to have to agree with you Amin (and Carl too).....as far as corrections, I dial in the +1C + +1Y for the DP1M and the +2M for the DP2M in SPP.

    R

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    My 2 week experience with the SD1M, I came to a few of my own conclusions, I I found that if possible, creating a custom WB can help some, yet at the same time, I came to the conclusion that Sigma has not created a good camera profile for there new Foven sensor.
    I took many test shots of a Color Checker Chart and could never get a good match to it, even though the custom WB did help.

    What the camera is missing is a good camera profile. Unfortunately SPP does not support custom profiles, and with no DNG support in the near future, or possibly never this is an issue.

    I gave up not because of the color, It was the sigma lenses on the SD1M were not up to the task.

    Yet my interest has for sure perked up since seeing images from the DP2M...


    Quote Originally Posted by antara View Post
    Here is a quote from the sigma forum at dpr.

    Dear fellow Sigma enthusiasts...

    After two days with the Sigma DP1M, here are my observations. I state them in comparison to the DP2M which I own as well:

    whereas the DP2M has a slight green cast (easliy corrected with +2M in SPP), the DP1M has a slight magenta cast (1C+1Y in SPP)

    Maybe thats all that is needed to correct.
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

  28. #728
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    I took many test shots of a Color Checker Chart and could never get a good match to it
    Sigma cameras have never had the most accurate colors, but I've always found the colors to be very pleasing, which matters more to me than accuracy.

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    I read on DPreview, that actually ISO 200 offers better DR
    ISO 200 is the base ISO for this sensor. In terms of the exposure range in the RAW file, ISO 100 is just ISO 200 with +1EV exposure compensation. Whether to shoot at ISO 100 or 200 setting depends on whether you want more highlight latitude in the RAW file (ISO 200) or less noise (ISO 100).

  30. #730
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Hi to all,

    so far i see three problems with the DP2m:

    1. Banding,
    it occurs sometimes in the shadows in out of focus areas mainly starting at iso 200. This is not a big problem. SPP noise reduction takes care of it. This is why SPP has the NR sliders as a standard in the middle position. If there is no banding visible you ca slide them to the left at low iso.
    The other possibility is to use NIK Define plugin in LR. Slide NR in SPP way to the left and exp. TIFF 16 to LR. Define has a debanding function: just use these and apply no other NR.

    2. Magenta Cyan color blotches,
    i find them mostly at ISO 200 and up in shadow areas in mid grey or more whitish areas. Not easy to deal with.
    What i do is in LR play with the color sliders: Pic the tone with the pipette and desaturate, change luminance or color. This has to be done carefully,depending the photo, so you dont change other color areas. You can use the brush in LR with a mask and change saturation only locally.
    Only a very few of my pics where affected.

    3. Cyan greenish cast in the corners (not blotches!)
    i made a shot with a WB diffusor in front of the lens:
    [IMG]
    SDIM0338-09. Oktober 2012.jpg by W.Utsch, on Flickr[/IMG]
    Reminds me on the Leica M8,9
    Convert it to DNG, and used the new "corner fix" plugin from Adobe:

    This is the pic before corner fix:
    [IMG]
    SDIM0267-08. Oktober 2012.jpg by W.Utsch, on Flickr[/IMG]
    you can clearly see the cyan shift in the corners.
    This is after the pug in:
    [IMG]
    SDIM0267-08. Oktober 2012_ff.jpg by W.Utsch, on Flickr[/IMG]
    Looks (little) better, more eaven. i Think with more time on could make this process much better.

    In general, the best thing to avoid problems is to expose to the shadows +0.3 -+0.7 and to use SPP with care.

    Regards Werner
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  31. #731
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Hi Werner, Steven, all

    It is all a question of compromise.

    Whatever the native sensitivity of the sensor is, I shoot at 100iso to obtain the best quality with minimum shadow noise. Shooting at higher ISO should only be used where necessary to avoid camera shake. Above 400iso, switch to a different camera if you have one with you - a NEX 5 or 7 is a better option here.

    I agree that using some luminance NR is often desirable to cut down banding or shadow noise. Where necessary I also run Neat Image in photoshop where I have built DP2 specific profiles for 100, 200, 400 and 800 ISO.

    Purple blobs are best dealt with by exposing for the shadows, and if necessary turning up chrominance NR in Sigma photo pro. If all else fails, a touch of paint brush at 50% in Photoshop in color mode works reasonably well.

    Has anyone tried Color Washer? I find it can be of help not just on DP files but generally. It's another option.
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer

  32. #732
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    With the DP1 and DP2 (non-M), it was always the case that any color blobs did not translate into any blobbiness when converting to B&W in SPP. So the high ISO B&W results were quite usable. Is the same true for the Merrill files?

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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by antara View Post
    Here is a quote from the sigma forum at dpr.

    Dear fellow Sigma enthusiasts...

    After two days with the Sigma DP1M, here are my observations. I state them in comparison to the DP2M which I own as well:

    whereas the DP2M has a slight green cast (easliy corrected with +2M in SPP), the DP1M has a slight magenta cast (1C+1Y in SPP)

    Maybe thats all that is needed to correct.
    I believe that this refers to different white balance behavior in the two cameras. I see the same response in my DP1M and DP2M.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Still looks to me like something which could be natural.
    Agree.
    Carl
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  34. #734
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Hi Quentin, et al,
    agree 100% to your last post.
    To expose for the shadows is mandatory to avoid later problems. Highlight recovery works pretty good, but if you push the shadows you will pretty soon get artifacts etc.
    The sensor needs light!
    Today tried custom WB (with diffusor) - worked out very good.
    I wont use the DP2M for higher ISO then 400, except, and i have to try that fist , for BW.
    As said before the behavior of the sensor reminds me on my Leica M8 - very clean and nice files but with certain limitations, one could say with character. Its just big fun to work on and with these files. You always get a big reward when you look 1:1 on your screen ,or make big prints (=A2+).
    Werner
    BTW: Admire your (and others) posted work here. And the general politeness in the posts

  35. #735
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    As I mentioned in my earlier post, custom WB if possible helps out.
    Seems like general consensus is t shoot the camera at ISO 100 which is doing ETTR as far as possible.
    Good to know
    Steven Kornreich
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  36. #736
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Yes, this is Amsterdam in october!

    Michiel

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  37. #737
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    hi Werner

    Well what can I say? This is not Dpreview, where the lunatics long ago took over the asylum

    Any many thanks for your kind comments.

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
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  38. #738
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    > ISO 100 which is doing ETTR as far as possible.

    THis always makes me nervous because if too much the image is ruined. How do images that you can recover look on the DP2M preview (live histogram easily gets confused, e.g. bright elements in the scene).
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  39. #739
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Personally, I think the output of the DP2 Merrill is so mind blowing that I don't really care if there are banding, shift or any other colour issues. Bear in mind I come from the Leica family where there have been some really odd (dumb?) problems with their sensors.

    If you shoot charts you'll find problems. I shoot content and I know by the time I post process any irregularities with the frame can normally be ironed out.

    Another point to think about is that a lot of us are shooting for the web, which is the sRGB space, which is one of the most ghastly colour spaces I can think of.

    Just my two cents.

    LouisB
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  40. #740
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    Yes, this is Amsterdam in october!

    Michiel
    Michiel

    That Heineken sign and the pedestrian almost jump out of the picture like a hologram! Great colours and content.

    LouisB
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  41. #741
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    +1
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

  42. #742
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    I have just ordered a DP1M. Will make an intersting companion!
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer
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  43. #743
    Super Duper
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    A rare, sunny October day on the lake. DP2M on tripod. A couple of WB comparisons. AUTO WB in particular is usually way off and the presets are not always that accurate either.

    Looking north from east shore of Cayuga at mouth of Salmon Creek. Preset "sunlight" WB in SPP.


    FULL SIZE

    One lonely kite surfer. Custom WB.


    FULL SIZE
    Carl
    Gallery
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  44. #744
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Another DP2M textural image (cropped)



    full size version here

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9806585/Engine.jpg
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer
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  45. #745
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    What a fantastic heating system you have, Quentin! So clean and detailed!

    Michiel
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  46. #746
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Exactly, Michiel! Except this belongs on a yacht...
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer

  47. #747
    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Early morning in Old Greenwich, CT. DP2M
    Last edited by peterb; 18th November 2012 at 22:53.
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.
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  48. #748
    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Heheh, banding, cyan corners, magenta-green shadows... you could be describing any Sigma camera. I don't think of them as "problems," merely "characteristics."

    Loving the DP2M shots, everyone.

  49. #749
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    Two more from yesterday.



    Just changed the settings in ACR of the color and temperature to the same levels, so the differences I saw in the asphalt and bricks on the steps are now a matter of different light and/or slightly different materials.
    Last edited by Michiel Schierbeek; 12th October 2012 at 05:21.
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  50. #750
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    Re: Sigma DP2 Merrill shots

    And a houseboat. I liked the green cast in the water.

    Michiel


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