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Thread: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

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    Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Start the ball rolling.

    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Some quick further testing has thrown up an issue.

    This is a house image, tweaked in Photoshop, showing good across the frame sharpness.



    However, look at this crop of the tree line above the house



    And compare it with a shot taken shortly afterwards with the DP2M (bear in mind the different focal lengths so the DP2M trees appear larger)



    Something is going on in the branches that reminds me of my old Kodak 14nx

    This concerns me because it might affect landscape shots with trees taken against a bright background. Other than this, the image quality from the DP1Q is very good.
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    I am starting to think that while the new Quattro sensor arrangement works 90% of the time, Bayer type colour errors are creeping back in because only the top layer is full resolution. I think the above effect is liked to this and I see subtle signs of colour errors in some DP2Q shots. If it is, then we all better hang on to our Merrills...
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Thank's a lot for the first impression - Hope Jpeg is now usable and ISO 800 may be an option- I will wait for a later statement from you - If available :-)

    Enjoy the playtime with your dp1q

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    However, look at this crop of the tree line above the house
    Quentin, do see these artifacts in SPP during RAW file preview?

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Yes.

    Its either a processing fault or an inherent limitation of the new sensor.
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    The original Merrills are looking better all the time. I've become accustomed to their limitations, and it seems like efforts to overcome those limitations might be creating unintended consequences.

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    I don't own one but have toyed with it. Your posts above have made me really rethink this. I was really hoping that this would be an improvement over the original version but with this artifact I am now very alarmed. It appears to be a masking effect.... I would think something that could be rectified but is a killer for me so far.

    Thanks for your postings regarding this camera.....

    Victor

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Hi Quentin,

    In my comparisons of the DP2M and DP2Q I talked with you about on luminous landscape, I saw the same issue in my tests of trees set against sky that you are seeing here with the DP1Q. And is indeed a "bayer" type of problem.

    It is quite unfortunate that this new layout introduces the potential for this type of artifacting.

    While Sigma DPP greatly improved red color resolution with SPP6.0.6 as well as shadow detail rendering, Sigma's software is still a work in progress.

    I have also noticed that Quattro files in SPP are prone to having some other interpolation type of artifacts, especially in some very fine repeating details, such as the chimney grill work example I posted on luminous landscape thread.

    One further issue I found bad about SPP renderings thus far are in night photographs where a very rough stair step pattern occurs over highlight areas that is simply not present in Merrill files. Merrill files actually have a very pleasing roll off of highlights. I have even tried all the setting related highlight retention and recovery in SPP for the Quattro files and they fail to match excellent default Merrill rendering.

    The net result of all this is that short of Sigma addressing these issues it mitigates any feeling towards upgrading to this new imaging layout. In fact, I have actually gone back and purchased a refurbished DP1s because it retains the good aspects of the x3 layout while also having more color in the shadows.

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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Unfortunately, I have to agree.

    Under the right conditions, the new Quattros can produce image quality that exceeds that of the Merril's by a small margin. But I am increasingly of the view that this is at the expense of some Bayer type aritfacts. Not as many as a with a pure Bayer sensor, but some nonetheless, and that defeats the purpose of using a Foveon based camera.

    I am concerend. Someone needs to wake Sigma up to the issue. current Bayer based cameras have reached a level of sophistication that is actually better that the example from the DP1Q I posted above. Processing power and cheap memory render redundant any argument about the need to keep raw file sizes down, which is the only justification for the new sensor design.


    Quote Originally Posted by capital View Post
    Hi Quentin,

    In my comparisons of the DP2M and DP2Q I talked with you about on luminous landscape, I saw the same issue in my tests of trees set against sky that you are seeing here with the DP1Q. And is indeed a "bayer" type of problem.

    It is quite unfortunate that this new layout introduces the potential for this type of artifacting.

    While Sigma DPP greatly improved red color resolution with SPP6.0.6 as well as shadow detail rendering, Sigma's software is still a work in progress.

    I have also noticed that Quattro files in SPP are prone to having some other interpolation type of artifacts, especially in some very fine repeating details, such as the chimney grill work example I posted on luminous landscape thread.

    One further issue I found bad about SPP renderings thus far are in night photographs where a very rough stair step pattern occurs over highlight areas that is simply not present in Merrill files. Merrill files actually have a very pleasing roll off of highlights. I have even tried all the setting related highlight retention and recovery in SPP for the Quattro files and they fail to match excellent default Merrill rendering.

    The net result of all this is that short of Sigma addressing these issues it mitigates any feeling towards upgrading to this new imaging layout. In fact, I have actually gone back and purchased a refurbished DP1s because it retains the good aspects of the x3 layout while also having more color in the shadows.
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    I emailed Sigma Japan about the chimney grill work example a month or so ago but did not ever get any response. Some of the issues are quite clearly a problem with SPP, like this chimney example, as can be seen in the accompanying comparison to raw luminance data that artifact does not exist.

    The issue of blue bleed in branches against blue sky is also a bit perplexing, especially since the panchromatic top layer is blue biased! Here it might seem to suggest that Sigma SPP is being a bit too heavy handed in reconciling photo responses of the three layers. As a matter of comparison, SPP6 dot releases below 6.0.6 adopted a rather dumb algorithm for introducing noise reduction (even at lowest setting!) in grey values of about 90 or lower which artificially reduced resolution and lead people to think that foliage and other details had a watercolor look.

    Sigma unfortunately has adopted a paternalistic attitude towards SPP processing, something they need to seriously readdress.
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    I've been following the Quattro discussion for a while now. In anticipation of the new cameras, I bought a lens hood for the DP2Q, and the remote release. If any US based photographer would like to have them, PM me and I'll ship them to you for free, still in the boxes.

    Just this last week I made my decision to stick w/ the Merrills for now, and ordered the DP1M to complete the set.

    Thanks, everyone (and especially Quentin) for your objective testing and practical examples of the DPQs. For me, even though I can see the increased resolution in some of the sample images, they still lack a certain something "crisp" that gives the appearance of greater detail rendering with the Merrills.

    Best regards,
    Rand
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    I now have all three Merrills. I will also pass on the Quattro. Maybe next year we'll have another 1:1:1 sensor.

    I was expecting the DP1M to have lots of CA and soft corners, but mine seems to have excellent corner performance, is incredibly sharp, and CA is minimal. I'm impressed, considering the things people have said about the DP1M. It also came with the latest firmware. Woohoo!

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    beside the sensor thing, the DpP1 has a 19mm lense and in this lenght no lense is perfect corner to corner, especially open.

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Let's not give up just yet..

    With the DP1Q

    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Driftwood, Grand Cayman



    7 Mile Beach



    The DP1Q performs quite well in relatively even light, but the shadows are noisy if you try to enhance the shadows (worse than a Merrill). Still, working quite well during my mainly business) trip to Cayman (arrived yesterday so still a bit Jet lagged...)

    I have set the DP1Q up to take three bracketed shots 0.7 stops apart in an attempt to avoid blown highlights.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Works quite well in mono

    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Works quite well in mono

    Ah brings back memories of time spent in the Seychelles, similarities, one being the sun which at the moment we are sadly missing.
    Hope it is not all work Quentin, enjoy.
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    I've had a few rum punches...
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    There's no place like home

    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Waves

    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    There is some new high quality street art in and around Shoreditch and Spitalfields in East London. This is a 4 image stitched pano taken handheld with the DP1Q in Hanbury Street, E1.

    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    I think that the comparative lack of action on this forum speaks volumes for the popularity (or not) of the DP1Q. I wonder how many have been sold. Oddly, I have had a little more success recently, by exposing more to the left (dialling in -.3 or -.7 of a stop exposure), but the Merrill's are still more flexible in most situations.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I think that the comparative lack of action on this forum speaks volumes for the popularity (or not) of the DP1Q. I wonder how many have been sold. Oddly, I have had a little more success recently, by exposing more to the left (dialling in -.3 or -.7 of a stop exposure), but the Merrill's are still more flexible in most situations.
    Quentin-

    Unfortunately (IMO), Sigma took a wrong turn w the DPQ line. A step backwards
    rather than forward.
    I hardly use my Sigma these days although I did retain a DP1M.
    It's pity a really because the Foveon look is so special.
    These days I am much more committed to Sony.
    I am eagerly awaiting the new A7rII, and have pre-ordered the Batis 25mm.
    That combo should be off-the-charts good.
    I long for a Merrill improvement.

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    Quentin-

    Unfortunately (IMO), Sigma took a wrong turn w the DPQ line. A step backwards
    rather than forward.
    I hardly use my Sigma these days although I did retain a DP1M.
    It's pity a really because the Foveon look is so special.
    These days I am much more committed to Sony.
    I am eagerly awaiting the new A7rII, and have pre-ordered the Batis 25mm.
    That combo should be off-the-charts good.
    I long for a Merrill improvement.
    I agree. I have an A7r, and an updated and improved version is tempting.

    I just don't like using the A7r nearly as much. It's a much less well sorted camera than, say an Nikon D810, although it is a lot more compact.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I agree. I have an A7r, and an updated and improved version is tempting.

    I just don't like using the A7r nearly as much. It's a much less well sorted camera than, say an Nikon D810, although it is a lot more compact.
    Exactly but weight counts for what I like to do.
    The newer versions of the A7 line are much more refined cameras.
    The only places I see the 810 as having an advantage these days in in AF speed.
    Once they implement the a6000 AF onto the a7 line even that will disappear.
    For static subjects I think the new A7rII will be as good or better especially w the new native FE lenses.

    Cmon Sigma. Get it together.
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quentin-
    Also meant to ask a few questions.
    Do you use Sigma Art line lenses on your 810 ?
    If so, are you pleased w the results ?
    I just added a 35mm Art for my A7r but haven't taken it out yet.

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    Quentin-
    Also meant to ask a few questions.
    Do you use Sigma Art line lenses on your 810 ?
    If so, are you pleased w the results ?
    I just added a 35mm Art for my A7r but haven't taken it out yet.
    Yes, I used a 35mm F1.4, but sadly that was stolen along with my D800E over a year ago. I replaced the D800 with the D810, but I never replaced the Sigma 35mm Art.

    while I had it, it was first class.

    I do have the (non-Art) 85mm F1.4 EX, which is a superb lens, and also a 120-300mm Sport, which is similarly excellent, but heavy.

    At the moment I am at a crossroads. I keep buying stuff I end up not using for various reasons, mainly to do with weight and size. I am waiting for the next gen Sony's. Whatever the advantages of the Merrilll's might be, the sheer horsepower of, say, a 59mp A8, or an updated 36mp A7rII means it is difficult for the Sigmas to keep up. Except as mono cameras, where frankly, the DP2M is superb.

    So just waiting for things to settle down a bit. Certainly like the look of the latest Zeiss Batis lenses
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Yes, I used a 35mm F1.4, but sadly that was stolen along with my D800E over a year ago. I replaced the D800 with the D810, but I never replaced the Sigma 35mm Art.

    while I had it, it was first class.

    I do have the (non-Art) 85mm F1.4 EX, which is a superb lens, and also a 120-300mm Sport, which is similarly excellent, but heavy.

    At the moment I am at a crossroads. I keep buying stuff I end up not using for various reasons, mainly to do with weight and size. I am waiting for the next gen Sony's. Whatever the advantages of the Merrilll's might be, the sheer horsepower of, say, a 59mp A8, or an updated 36mp A7rII means it is difficult for the Sigmas to keep up. Except as mono cameras, where frankly, the DP2M is superb.

    So just waiting for things to settle down a bit. Certainly like the look of the latest Zeiss Batis lenses
    Thanks Quentin. At least Sigma continues to make excellent lenses.
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Polymoniums and Hostas from our garden

    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Those of you who had experience with both DP1 M & Q, do you find any noticeable improvement in DP1Q lens rendering, e.g. sharper corners wide open, compared to DP1M files?

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina DZ View Post
    Those of you who had experience with both DP1 M & Q, do you find any noticeable improvement in DP1Q lens rendering, e.g. sharper corners wide open, compared to DP1M files?
    The reverse, sadly.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Two interior shots of Blenheim Palace during a tour, the first at ISO 640, and the second, stitched from 2 shots, at ISO 800, both handheld.

    State Dining Room Ceiling



    A State Room

    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    ^^^^ Blenheim Shots ^^^^

    Quentin, those are beautiful and at the same time awesome photographs. Well done.

    I find it hard to believe any camera can do better. The Sigma's seem to thrive on photographs with lots of different textures and shapes. At least that is my experience.

    I must admit to being conflicted at present about further investment in Sigma cameras. I am intrigued by the DP0Q but wonder whether I should spend my money on a Batis 25 for my A7R instead.

    Decisions, decisions (not made easier by this thread).

    LouisB
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    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Louis

    Many thanks.

    I am just about beginning to understand the Quattros. Where you would dial in +.3 or +.7 of a stop with a Merrill, you have to dial in -0.3 or -0.7 with a Quattro. They also do colour at high ISO far better. It's all very confusing!
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    One more from Blenheim, perspective corrected.

    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    ^^^^ Blenheim Shots ^^^^

    Quentin, those are beautiful and at the same time awesome photographs. Well done.

    I find it hard to believe any camera can do better. The Sigma's seem to thrive on photographs with lots of different textures and shapes. At least that is my experience.

    I must admit to being conflicted at present about further investment in Sigma cameras. I am intrigued by the DP0Q but wonder whether I should spend my money on a Batis 25 for my A7R instead.

    Decisions, decisions (not made easier by this thread).

    LouisB
    Louis, I am in much the same quandary.

    I want around 21mm, I want more detail than my 16Mpixel GR with GW3 gives me.
    How?

    DPQ0, A7r+Zeiss 21/2 or a Batis. Maybe.
    The Batis is not exactly small, neither is the DPQ0. The A7r+Zeiss ok size wise IMO.

    I've considered the XT1+14mm but is there any more detail gained than the GR?
    Any m43 and lens combo again no gain. Except perhaps the EM5II in 40Mp mode.

    What I would like is an RX1r with native 21mm.

    BTW: Quentin, I stopped a looked and looked at the "Polymoniums and Hostas from our garden" the detail and composition is awesome. That would look nice on the wall.

    Cheers
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    I have a number of high quality cameras, but more often than not, I seem to reach for a Merrill or Quattro, for some reason - despite their limitations. I think their simplicity appeals as well as their unique image quality.
    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Louis, I am in much the same quandary.

    I want around 21mm, I want more detail than my 16Mpixel GR with GW3 gives me.
    How?

    DPQ0, A7r+Zeiss 21/2 or a Batis. Maybe.
    The Batis is not exactly small, neither is the DPQ0. The A7r+Zeiss ok size wise IMO.

    I've considered the XT1+14mm but is there any more detail gained than the GR?
    Any m43 and lens combo again no gain. Except perhaps the EM5II in 40Mp mode.

    What I would like is an RX1r with native 21mm.

    BTW: Quentin, I stopped a looked and looked at the "Polymoniums and Hostas from our garden" the detail and composition is awesome. That would look nice on the wall.

    Cheers
    The GW3 works well on the DP1M.

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quentin Bargate
    Co-Founder of Ajuve, Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2016, Photographer
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots


    SDIM0275_v1 by Dimy4, on Flickr
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots


    DP1Q1090_v2 by Dimy4, on Flickr
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Barcelona

    DP1Q0587_1_v2 by Dimy4, on Flickr
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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimych View Post

    SDIM0275_v1 by Dimy4, on Flickr
    This one is brilliant - really great shot. The cyclist is perfectly placed, the greens are perfect and as for the general 'IQ' I can even see the poppies and the bluebells! And the sky - perfect!

    Lee
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

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    Re: Sigma DP1 Quattro Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphie View Post
    This one is brilliant - really great shot. The cyclist is perfectly placed, the greens are perfect and as for the general 'IQ' I can even see the poppies and the bluebells! And the sky - perfect!

    Lee
    Sapphie, thanks a lot!
    /it took me an hour to catch good light

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