LR colorspace for printing?

[jjlphoto]

Here's what the CS print window should look like:

 

[jjlphoto]

You could also try logging into another user account and see what happens. Sometimes this stuff gets corrupted. And worse case, the dreaded un-install and re-install of the program/s. Adobe tracks this stuff, so be advised, there may be some specific Adobe procedures regarding your license if you choose that route. Un-install/re-install of the printer driver is usually pretty straight forward.

 

[Robert Campbell]

Forgive me for intruding...I'm on windoze..and apologies if this is simplistic;

in LR in XP or whatever, when in Print module, you change 'from printer manages colors' and then pick the appropriate cryptically named profile

and then go to the print box on bottom right, select printer and its properties, click at Mode to select 'custom' and select 'Off (no Color Adjustment)' thus:

 

[jjlphoto]

Forgive me for intruding...I'm on windoze..and apologies if this is simplistic;

in LR in XP or whatever, when in Print module, you change 'from printer manages colors' and then pick the appropriate cryptically named profile....

This is where LR is more straightforward than Photoshop. The mere act of selecting that cryptically named printer/paper profile automatically disengages the 'printer manages color' pathway, where as in Photoshop, you still have to intentionally toggle to 'PS Manages Color' even though you have selected a printer/paper profile.

...and then go to the print box on bottom right, select printer and its properties, click at Mode to select 'custom' and select 'Off (no Color Adjustment)' thus:

Exactly. Some minor variations in the Mac/Win interface, but the process of selecting the 'Off (no Color Adjustment)' in the printer's driver itself is the second key ingredient.

 

[Diane B]

I've followed this but kept my nose out of the thread since there have been good posts. Somehow I think there is a misunderstanding about what 'color management' is on the part of the OP. My understanding is that Picasa has NO color management at all--and secondly that he may very well be double profiling in LR. There are great resources out there for color management with LR and yet it continues to be a problem for some. However, the last post pretty well covers the 2 most important things that must be done in LR to get successful prints.

Certainly good monitor calibration would be helpful--and using soft proofing is also (though not available yet in LR)., but just following the last post will get you there for good prints unless your monitor is really off--meaning that you've made corrections in processing that will lead to bad prints.

Diane

 

[Robert Campbell]

To the above:

you also have to select the appropriate type of paper (= Media) for the actual paper you are using -- it should tell you on/in the box or the manufacturer's website if you are using non Epson paper .

 

[Diane B]

To the above:

you also have to select the appropriate type of paper (= Media) for the actual paper you are using -- it should tell you on/in the box or the manufacturer's website if you are using non Epson paper .

Yes, you're right--#3. You will have to choose an Epson media (not sure with a Canon printer), but the profile is designed to work with the media--every third party media I've used gives the correct Epson media to choose in that area.

I love printing in LR--I used to print (even having LR from beta 1.0) in PS and Qimage, but with 2.0+, I find it easier and equally good prints from LR. Softproofing would be nice, but using the same few media all the time, I know what to expect.

 

[gsking]

I've followed this but kept my nose out of the thread since there have been good posts. Somehow I think there is a misunderstanding about what 'color management' is on the part of the OP. My understanding is that Picasa has NO color management at all--and secondly that he may very well be double profiling in LR.

Hey, I LIKE no color management. The nice thing about it is...it doesn't change. ;-)

My best ICC profile is not as good as the profiles on the printer. I'll have to try Monaco to get something better.

Going back to colorspaces, it works fine IF I print an sRGB image. Then the unmanaged output of LR seems to match Windows/Picasa.

I was able to get the previous example to look similar, by tediously triplechecking all settings. I may have used different printer settings last time (unenhanced vs enhanced).

But this new example I used was taken with my digital back, in whatever colorspace Phase uses, it looks fine onscreen, but gets "flattened" when going to the printer. I realize most of my problems arose from using this camera, not my DSLR.

I did three test prints using the attached screen shot. The best LR-managed profile is decent, but not close enough. If I print with IDENTICAL printer-managed settings from LR and from Windows (right-click and print), the LR photo is drab, as I will show.

My only conclusion is my original one. LR, when unmanaged, outputs to the printer in the native colorspace of the image. The only way to get it to output in sRGB (something a printer can understand) is to save to JPG and do the colorspace conversion. So, ICC profiles are mandatory when using non-sRGB images.

 

[jjlphoto]

Hey, I LIKE no color management. The nice thing about it is...it doesn't change. ;-)

That is not true. Only a fully colormanaged environment is consistent. You method is simply not colormanaged at all. It is all based on chance. Sorry.

I may have used different printer settings last time (unenhanced vs enhanced).

Huh? None of those should be used in a colormanaged workflow.

But this new example I used was taken with my digital back, in whatever colorspace Phase uses, it looks fine onscreen, but gets "flattened" when going to the printer. I realize most of my problems arose from using this camera, not my DSLR.

Digital cameras do not have a colorspace. The RAW data is processed into an RGB colorspace of your choice like sRGB, AdobeRGB, ColorMatchRGB, ProPhotoRGB or similar. In the case of a LR workflow, the RAW camera data gets converted behind the scenes to MelissaRGB, then held in a sort of virtual state until you choose the type of output, whether you are making a tiff, jpeg, or sending it direct to a printer, and in all cases, you select either an RGB space for the former and a printer/paper profile for the latter.

Greg, I'm not tying to be argumentative or adversarial, but in this entire post, I have not seen any indication whatsoever that you have a firm grasp of the ICC/ICM colormanaged workflow, nor how it works. Unfortunately, for for non-pros, getting good output really is a holy grail. I was just at a fundraiser last night for the non-profit company my wife works for, and the first thing one of the big-wig mucky-mucks asked me (after he asked what kind of new digital camera to buy) was "how do I get good prints" or "how do I make my prints match my screen?" That's one reason why I have to make my social calendar tightly controlled. I suppose its like the accountant who gets pounced on at every dinner party with questions on how to pay less taxes.

For the industrious or advanced amateur, there are many fine on-line tutorials available at sites such as Fred Miranda, Luminous-Landscape, Outback Photo, the Digital Dog site mentioned earlier. Often that gets people pointed in the right direction. This site also has great workshops you might want to look into. Otherwise, hourly consultation with a local pro may be warranted.

 

[gsking]

John,

Wow, you're not trying to be argumentative, huh? Then the only other conclusion is you're too smart for your own good. Believe it or not, I'm a rocket scientist. But when people (particularly photographers) ask me how rockets work, I don't go off on tangents about strain augmented burning, deLaval nozzles, Prandtl-Meyer flow, or anything else. I answer their questions in simple terms.

And ironically, even after I gave YOU the answer straight up, you still can't agree with me. I didn't ask for how to run a fully managed workflow....as I realize that's a long and complicated answer.

Here's a tip...an easy answer would have been:

"Color management with ICC profiles is required with LR when printing from any files not originating in the sRGB colorspace. Otherwise, the data going to the printer will not be in a format the printer expects"

When I reread my post, that seems to be a much simpler answer than your ongoing diatribes.

It's not unreasonable for someone who doesn't LIVE by colorspaces like you do to assume that LR will output data that looks like it does on the screen. That is the question I asked, and yet you were (and still are) unable to answer it.

I don't have the luxury of multiple ICC profiles, uniform inks, papers, lighting, etc. I'm not a pro. I print different ways from different cameras at different times with different files on different printers with different papers (whatever's cheapest). So keeping it simple is important to me.

Apparently, outputting to sRGB is the easiest way, which is why I asked. Duh...if I had a FIRM GRASP on colormanaged workflow, why the hell would I ASK THE QUESTION?

I guess I know next time...find out the answer before I ask, right?

Greg

 

[jjlphoto]

.....I didn't ask for how to run a fully managed workflow....as I realize that's a long and complicated answer.

The only way to make LR print properly is to fully implement a colormanaged workflow in its entirety. It's really quite simple. Based on your screen shot of the print driver, you have not turned off printer colormanagement. Take a close look at Robert Campbell's screen shot and enable the same features that pertain to your printer. The reason you need to turn off printer color management is because LR is doing the colormanagement of the file by your selection of the printer/paper profile in the LR print Job panel. If you let the file pass into the driver into the tab that does have all the controls like tones, enhancements, or other color types of settings, that will hose your file and you will output a dud.

Here's a tip...an easy answer would have been:
"Color management with ICC profiles is required with LR when printing from any files not originating in the sRGB colorspace. Otherwise, the data going to the printer will not be in a format the printer expects"

But then that would be a false statement.

It's not unreasonable for someone who doesn't LIVE by colorspaces like you do to assume that LR will output data that looks like it does on the screen. That is the question I asked, and yet you were (and still are) unable to answer it.

Actually, it is not reasonable to assume that LR will output data that looks like it does on the screen, unless you implement colormanagement properly. No wiggle room here.

Apparently, outputting to sRGB is the easiest way, which is why I asked.

Doing such is not in keeping with a colormanaged workflow. sRGB is a working space, not intended to be an output profile in a true colormanaged environment.

 

[gsking]

LOL...you just don't quit, do you? Please, stop trying to help. It's becoming comical.

The only way to make LR print properly is to fully implement a colormanaged workflow in its entirety. It's really quite simple. Based on your screen shot of the print driver, you have not turned off printer colormanagement.

Had you READ my post, you'd understand that was WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO! The ICC profile I used wasn't good enough, so I was printing in the way that works better WITH sRGB FILES.

What's the point? You don't listen.

But then that would be a false statement.

Okay, then how about YOU TELL ME THE RIGHT ANSWER instead of continuing your holier-than-thou rants? Because it surely matches all the evidence I have to date, and I trust proof more than I trust people's comments online, regardless of how much experience they may claim to have.

Actually, it is not reasonable to assume that LR will output data that looks like it does on the screen, unless you implement colormanagement properly. No wiggle room here.

Funny, every other program I use does...but you're right, I'm not being reasonable.

Doing such is not in keeping with a colormanaged workflow. sRGB is a working space, not intended to be an output profile in a true colormanaged environment.

Do you ever get through a sentence without including "colormanaged"? Some of us don't live in a colormanaged world. You may. Enjoy it. Thanks for trying to help, but save your effort. You're sounding like a mindless automaton.

 

[mrtoml]

Perhaps this document might help?

http://spyder.datacolor.com/pdfs/Print-with-ICC-in-LR.pdf

 

[Diane B]

I just have to say I don't get it. Since you are a rocket scientist, then I would think you would value direct verifiable methods. sRGB is NOT the easist way. Color managed is the EASIEST way to go once you get your head around it (and its not really difficult---3 settings will do it for the most part). On top of that, spending the money to get good cameras, good lenses--and then not expending the small effort it takes to understand how to get the best prints from those cameras/lense is rather mystifying to me.

Generic ICC profiles are cheap--free---and very good for the most part (I haven't found any that don't work good enough for me for personal use) and are probably available for any media you are using. I can't imagine you aren't using the inks that came with whatever printer you are using---and the inks are irrelevant for the most part.

You simply need to know what printer you are using and select it (I have 3 in my driver list--but primarily print with the Epson 3800), select the paper profile for the media you are using (I have multitudes having 3 printers over the years and lots of papers, but you can choose which ones you want in your drop down list at bottom right and its easy enough to choose the right one for the paper and the printer--they are usually preceded by the printer name/model and sort of a shorthand for the paper), select the media in the driver window and make sure that in 'custom/advanced' (depends on what your driver shows), you select 'no color management'---meaning NO color management by the printer and puts all of the color management in LR (using printer name, profile, media choice). Forgot you also have to select the media in the driver window--that will be stipulated by your profile--you'll find the instructions either on the mfg. page or often on a sheet included with the paper.

So--if I'm going to print on Ilford's Gold Fiber Silk, I've gotten their generic profile (or had a custom profile created for that paper and my printer) for the Epson 3800 from their site (it will give me the ICC profile and the media setting)--I install that on my computer (XP Pro) and it will show up on the left list in LR (if the ICC Profile that you installed isn't shown in the drop down list in bottom right, you select other at the end of the bottom right drop down list, a list shows up on the left and you put a check beside the profile you want to add and it will then be in your drop down list). The profile for the Ilford paper stipulates that I need to choose Premium Semigloss Photo Paper as my media choice with the 3800. I choose that in my driver window and go to custom/advanced settings in that same window and choose 'off/no color management'. Having set up size, borders, etc. then I just hit print. I don't have to fiddle around with any other settings, software, printer settings, etc.

I really don't get what's so difficult about this--its the only way to get consistent prints. The original question you asked is if you were missing something--and this is it. Color management which is easy, consistent, works with any media, any printer is the answer. A number of people have tried to give you good answers--helpful to the point of posting screen shots. Everything else is luck--sometimes bad, sometimes ok, but never consistent and a royal pain I would think (you mention that your ICC profile wasn't 'good enough' but you need an ICC Profile for every paper you use on every different printer with different media settings and printer color management turned off--all easy to set up once and that's it--you can save it as a preset in LR). To my mind, its worth trying since you've tried everything else and aren't happy.

Saying "I don't have the luxury of multiple ICC profiles, uniform inks, papers, lighting" really is irrelevant--ICC profiles are free, the OEM inks you have in any printers are 'consistent', whatever papers you choose will have ICC profiles and stipulate what media settings to use--and beyond that--there's nothing else you MUST have to get consistent results. You asked a question, several posters have tried to point you to the easiest way to get consistent good results, but for some reason you want to argue the points (there really is no argument that color managed is easy and best) and so my feeling is, do what you want, but I don't feel its necessary to denigrate the posters that were trying to help you.

Diane

 

[Godfrey]

This is on PC, not Mac. Obviously, I have a unique problem that goes way beyond the experience here. I recommend people don't use an R800 printer with Lightroom...you'll either throw your printer out, or at least put your fist through it like I did.

Funny: my partner has an R800. He wanted to print a bunch of family snapshots and I have LR installed on his MacBook (for testing) so I showed him how to set up a print template and apply it. He's been printing snapshot album photos for his aunt with that template for two years now ... they look great.

I'm sure I set it up using whatever paper profile there was for Epaon Premium Glossy paper. It just works.

I do all my printing from Lightroom too, btw, to an Epson R2400. I get better results than I do from Photoshop or any other printing software, and the templates allow me 100% repeatable printing results for clients and exhibition prints. Since I moved to using LR for all my printing, my paper and ink wastage (due to my forgetting to make the right settings per print) has dropped to just about nil.

 

[gsking]

Perhaps this document might help?

http://spyder.datacolor.com/pdfs/Print-with-ICC-in-LR.pdf

Ha, this part cracks me up:

"Important note:
Unlike in Adobe Photoshop, the rendering intent „saturation”
is not available in Adobe Lightroom. For this reason, we can
only recommend the use of Adobe Lightroom for printing with
ICC-Printer-Profiles, created with our own Printing-Solution
Spyder3Print, conditionally!"

Plain and simple.

 

[jjlphoto]

Greg- what you are seeing on screen simply has no bearing on anything quantifiable about the image data. Because it may look somewhat right, fine. But take this into account:
-I calibrate my monitor to a luminance value of 100 cd/m2.
-Black level set to .4.
-Gamma is set to 2.2.
-White point set to 6500K.

Why does all this matter? Because most monitors out of the box will default to eyeball frying luminace levels of 275 cd/m2 or higher. Why the black level setting? I need to bring the monitor's contrast ratio down to 250. (lum/black level) Why 250? Because marketing guys have figured out that big contrast ratio numbers sell monitors, so it's common today to see monitors boasting contrast rations of 1:1000 and higher. But no printer, whether CMYK offset, inkjet, or whatever, can accurately reproduce that ratio. Given that, a monitor 'out of the box' may produce great looking graphics for folks playing Agents of Slaughter or Doomsday Extreme, but does nothing beneficial whatsoever to photographs one wishes to print. Without a properly calibrated monitor, all bets are off. When people spend serious money on a professional level program like Adobe LightRoom, they expect they will be using it in accordance with certain processes and procedures to obtain the superior results the program was designed for. Otherwise it's a waste of money. The fact that you have gotten good results with other systems you worked is purely by chance.

Here's the way printer drivers work. People often refer to them as the mysterious Epson black box. It is designed to take in RGB data. Any RGB data. Yes, it uses the conventional CMYK inking protocol, but it really wants the data in RGB (feed it CMYK data, and it will flip it back to RGB data first.)

The printer driver is split into two virtual parts. The first part is for soccer moms and weekenders who shoot god knows what, and in who knows what or perhaps even an untagged RGB colorspace. In that part of the driver, there are all sorts of sliders and buttons. Enhance, Vivid, Saturate, etc. Some give you access to a myriad of sliders of assorted colors, etc., etc. After the soccer mom blows through about 50 bucks of genuine Epson ink and paper doing trial and error test prints, a nice print will eventually pop out. The controls provide no on-screen feedback because it is assumed that the user has a monitor that is in a who-knows-what type of state. This part of the driver is great for Epson (and others) as they are in business to sell ink and paper. Heck, they should give the printers away free. (Sometime they actually do in certain bundled promotions with computer makers.)

The other part of the driver is what is reserved for people that use expensive editing programs like Photoshop, LR, and countless others. Files passing through that part need to be tagged with a printer/paper profile in their respective editing apps, so they need to pass through the driver unfettered. In LR, you select the printer/paper profile in the Print Job Panel. A screen shot of that is posted on the tutorial I linked to. I already posted screen shots of the Photoshop equivalent.

If you have gone to the expense of buying LR, and think you should use LR to view and edit images on an uncalibtrated monitor, and to send the image to the printer converted to sRGB, and then use the soccer mom side of the print driver, you have simply defeated the whole point of using that expensive program. It really is an 'all or none' type of workflow unfortunately.

That's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

P.S. You may be at better peace with yourself and the world if you could try to see things for what they really are rather than what you think they should be.

 

[jjlphoto]

Ha, this part cracks me up:

"Important note:
Unlike in Adobe Photoshop, the rendering intent „saturation”
is not available in Adobe Lightroom. For this reason, we can
only recommend the use of Adobe Lightroom for printing with
ICC-Printer-Profiles, created with our own Printing-Solution
Spyder3Print, conditionally!"

Plain and simple.

I will tell you what that refers to. It has nothing to do with those who are printing photographs. There are four rendering intents graphics software uses to convert the file from gamut to gamut. Perceptual, Relative, Absolute and Saturation.

Perceptual and Relative are the only ones needed for printing photos.

Absolute is for doing this like cross rendered CMYK proofs or other things where one needs to have the actual tone of the paper printed where white on a regular photo print is actually just the absence of ink and you see the paper base.

Saturation is for folks who do banners and graphics. They may be using spot colors, or other Pantone types of colors. (This is not the same 'saturation' one sees in a print driver toggle I illustrated in my above example of drivers.)

 

[gsking]

I just have to say I don't get it.

Yep

Generic ICC profiles are cheap--free---and very good for the most part (I haven't found any that don't work good enough for me for personal use) and are probably available for any media you are using. I can't imagine you aren't using the inks that came with whatever printer you are using---and the inks are irrelevant for the most part.

You can assume all you want, but you'd be wrong. And when you get to saying "Inks are irrelevant"...you are just sounding more foolish. I have different ink cartridges with the same printer...they look nothing alike.

So what else of your info can I discount as well?

You simply need to know what printer you are using and select it (I have 3 in my driver list--but primarily print with the Epson 3800), select the paper profile for the media you are using (I have multitudes having 3 printers over the years and lots of papers, but you can choose which ones you want in your drop down list at bottom right and its easy enough to choose the right one for the paper and the printer--they are usually preceded by the printer name/model and sort of a shorthand for the paper), select the media in the driver window and make sure that in 'custom/advanced' (depends on what your driver shows), you select 'no color management'---meaning NO color management by the printer and puts all of the color management in LR (using printer name, profile, media choice). Forgot you also have to select the media in the driver window--that will be stipulated by your profile--you'll find the instructions either on the mfg. page or often on a sheet included with the paper.

So--if I'm going to print on Ilford's Gold Fiber Silk, I've gotten their generic profile (or had a custom profile created for that paper and my printer) for the Epson 3800 from their site (it will give me the ICC profile and the media setting)--I install that on my computer (XP Pro) and it will show up on the left list in LR (if the ICC Profile that you installed isn't shown in the drop down list in bottom right, you select other at the end of the bottom right drop down list, a list shows up on the left and you put a check beside the profile you want to add and it will then be in your drop down list). The profile for the Ilford paper stipulates that I need to choose Premium Semigloss Photo Paper as my media choice with the 3800. I choose that in my driver window and go to custom/advanced settings in that same window and choose 'off/no color management'. Having set up size, borders, etc. then I just hit print. I don't have to fiddle around with any other settings, software, printer settings, etc.

It takes you THAT long to describe something simple? Ironic.

What do you do when you print OUTSIDE of LR? Like when printing mobile, without your computer? What then???

I really don't get what's so difficult about this--its the only way to get consistent prints.

Does that sentence make any sense to you? "The only way to get consistent prints" may very well be true, but that doesn't therefore mean it's not difficult. Google "non sequitur".

Simple is NOT having to do that.

The original question you asked is if you were missing something--and this is it.

Yeah, I figured it out, no thanks to anyone else

 

[Robert Campbell]

Ha, this part cracks me up:

"Important note:
Unlike in Adobe Photoshop, the rendering intent „saturation”
is not available in Adobe Lightroom. For this reason, we can
only recommend the use of Adobe Lightroom for printing with
ICC-Printer-Profiles, created with our own Printing-Solution
Spyder3Print, conditionally!"

Plain and simple.

Saturation is not a photographic rendering intent. The quote above is a non sequitur.