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DP1, E420, & 5D dynamic range compared

A

asabet

Guest
I thought some might be interested in the dynamic range comparison I did here.

Any comments on results or suggestions for improvement of testing methods would be appreciated.
 
S

Sean_Reid

Guest
Hi Amin,

One thing that you may want to keep in mind is that the contrast level of the lens used on a given camera will effect the dynamic range relayed to the sensor. So, to really look at dynamic range, per se, one needs to set the lens as a control. That would be hard to do for the three cameras you're comparing and so that makes it difficult to isolate the role of the camera itself in the DR of the final file. This lens factor, unfortunately, is widely overlooked in many articles about DR. You might want to discuss this in the article.

Specifically, and as you probably know, a lower contrast lens will lift the shadow values further away from the noise floor.

Cheers,

Sean
 
A

asabet

Guest
Hi Sean,
Thank you for your comments, very much appreciated! I will add this information to the article.
Regards,
Amin
 

Joan

New member
Thanks for the comparison, Amin. 3 great cameras in their respective niches, impressed with the DP1 DR, and slightly disappointed in the E420 ... not sure if it's worth upgrading from E410 or not. Would you care to share your thoughts about that?

Joan
 
A

asabet

Guest
Joan, thanks for looking and taking the time to comment. I think the E-410 and E-420 actually have pretty good DR, just not as good as these other two. The question of upgrading from E-410 to E-420 is a tough one. I sold the E-410 because I was mainly shooting film and because there were no compact wide or normal primes to maximize the size advantage of the Oly system. The 25mm pancake drew me back, so I went with the E-420. Unfortunately I don't have the E-410 anymore to directly compare with the E-420, but I'll give you my subjective impressions. The following is a list of stated improvements with the E-420, accompanied by how they would affect my choice in terms of upgrading:

• On-screen (LCD) autofocus - Not useful for me
• Face detection - same
• Larger, better LCD - This is a noticeable improvement, but the E-410 LCD is good enough for me
• Shadow Adjustment Technology - This is handy, particularly for when I am shooting family snaps in JPEG mode and don't want to be bothered with postprocessing. The results are very good with Gradation set to "Auto." Here are two before and after SAT samples:









• Perfect Shot Preview "enables you to view and select your favorite effect right on the LCD, and see how the image will look before you even capture it" - Not useful to me.
• Improved automatic white balance - I think I have noticed an improvement here, but as a mainly RAW shooter, it's not a big deal.
• TruePic III Image Processor - I do notice an improvement in noise at ISO 800-1600, though it is a subjectively small improvement. I think there is also an improvement in frames per second, but I don't care about this.
• New sensor with improved dynamic range "and a new state-of-the-art amplifier circuit dramatically reduces noise and captures fine image details in the highlight and shadow areas" - Again, I haven't tested this enough to know; however, I'm not seeing dramatic differences.

Overall, I would not upgrade to the E-420 if I had an E-410. I will mention that one gentleman who goes by the name Raist3d in the DPReview Olympus forum has both the E-410 and E-420, has compared them directly, and finds the differences to be more significant than I have suggested. His posts are here.

Regards,
Amin
 

Joan

New member
Amin,
THANK YOU so much for your very succinct and helpful analysis and the sample images. I'd read Raist3d's comments but wasn't totally convinced one way or the other. Now you've put it all in a nutshell for me and I tend to agree that for me, too, spending the money to upgrade wouldn't be worth it right now. If I had neither camera, I'd go for the E420 for sure, but I think I'd be better off at this point to save the $$$ for the new standard grade WA lens.

Many thanks,
Joan
 

Brian Mosley

New member
Hi Joan,

I would take a good look at Raist's careful observations between the E-410 and E-420, he has a good attention to detail and all opinions are subjective - he has used the E-410 and now E-420 pretty intensively though.

You seem to have exactly the right attitude - the glass will have a bigger impact on the quality of your image making than a new body, also the cost of the E-410 is dropping through the floor right now (I had a tip from Adam yesterday that the E-410 was going for £199 here in the UK - which is incredible VFM - the DP1 is £550)

Can't wait to see that standard grade WA lens!

Kind Regards

Brian
 
A

asabet

Guest
Glad to be of help Joan.

Brian, seems to be a trend that the E-4xx and E-5xx bodies, thus far, plummet in price when the next one comes out, no? I know it's true for almost all digital cameras, but the degree here is impressive. I recall seeing some outstanding UK deals on the E-400 and E-500 as well. I'm guessing the Sigma too is in for a mighty drop in price over the next 6-8 months.
 

Joan

New member
Hi Joan,

I would take a good look at Raist's careful observations between the E-410 and E-420, he has a good attention to detail and all opinions are subjective - he has used the E-410 and now E-420 pretty intensively though.

You seem to have exactly the right attitude - the glass will have a bigger impact on the quality of your image making than a new body, also the cost of the E-410 is dropping through the floor right now (I had a tip from Adam yesterday that the E-410 was going for £199 here in the UK - which is incredible VFM - the DP1 is £550)

Can't wait to see that standard grade WA lens!

Kind Regards

Brian
Hi Brian,

You are correct that Raist's comments were informed & thoughtful and I know he sees the E420 as a significant improvement. I know you're impressed with the E420, too. It's just that I'm not entirely certain if I want to continue along the Oly DSLR path at all. I've just bought a Digilux 2 which I've wanted for a long time. It may turn out that it will be the camera I use the most for the next couple of years. I put the E410 up for sale a while back, but my buyer had some problems and couldn't complete the deal. Thus I am keeping it for the time being and considering all possibilities.

If the new WA turns out to be very good, then I'll probably be "in" and stay with the E4xx's and also hope for more small primes.

Thanks for your comments, appreciate them!

Joan
 
A

asabet

Guest
The D2 and E-410 kit (with 14-42) have a very similar form, total light gathering ability, and zoom range. Prior to the E-410, the D2 was my most used camera for a while. Choosing between them was difficult, but I didn't want to keep both since they served a similar role for me. The main reason I went with the E-410 over the D2 was that the Oly did a better job keeping up with my children as they are always on the move. For "general" photography, I preferred using the D2.
 

Brian Mosley

New member
Hi Amin, what makes you think the DP1 is in for a massive price drop so quickly? has your replacement arrived yet?

Kind Regards

Brian
 
A

asabet

Guest
Brian, my replacement situation has changed. Canoga, where I originally bought the camera, persuaded Sigma to do a straight exchange for me. I therefore cancelled my order with J&R and sent the defective one to Sigma in NY. They should receive it on Thursday and will ship mine at that time. I should have it early next week, if not sooner.

My feeling that the Sigma will drop is just a hunch. Sigma DSLRs have had heavy price cuts. There is doubtless some money spent on DP1 R&D as well as advertising that needs to be made off us early adopters. Besides the sensor, I doubt there is much of high cost in the DP1 that would require it to continue to cost this much after those initial investments are recovered. It's like the iPhone - sell high to the people who want it no matter what, then sell lower to everyone else. In neither case do I think that the initial group is overpaying or that the company is overcharging. The other reason for my speculation is that I'm just preparing myself for the possibility. If I expect it to happen and buy it anyway, my ego won't be as bruised when it happens and I look back on what I spent :).
 
S

Sean_Reid

Guest
Hi Sean,
Thank you for your comments, very much appreciated! I will add this information to the article.
Regards,
Amin
Just saw the addendum - great. The only note I'd add is that you might want to explain that by lifting the shadows, a lower contrast lens can move the shadow detail data away from the noise floor. Software can extract shadow detail in a higher contrast file but only when the data for that detail is clearly distinct from the data that records noise. In other words, if one digs too far into the shadows, to lift them, he or she may just be digging up noise.

Also, I applaud you for pointing out that your results refer to specific camera/lens combinations and thus do not necessarily generalize to the cameras per se. Many people don't seem to get that distinction.

Cheers,

Sean
 
A

asabet

Guest
Thanks for looking again and for the advice/comments Sean. I just added a bit more per your suggestion. Unfortunately it's 2:40AM, and I can't think clearly enough to write well =).
 

Brian Mosley

New member
My feeling that the Sigma will drop is just a hunch. Sigma DSLRs have had heavy price cuts. There is doubtless some money spent on DP1 R&D as well as advertising that needs to be made off us early adopters. Besides the sensor, I doubt there is much of high cost in the DP1 that would require it to continue to cost this much after those initial investments are recovered. It's like the iPhone - sell high to the people who want it no matter what, then sell lower to everyone else. In neither case do I think that the initial group is overpaying or that the company is overcharging. The other reason for my speculation is that I'm just preparing myself for the possibility. If I expect it to happen and buy it anyway, my ego won't be as bruised when it happens and I look back on what I spent :).
I suppose the price will be whatever the market will bear - demand vs supply will ultimately dictate the price. If Sigma don't drop the price early to match demand, they'll be left with loads of stock to clear and Adam-T will have his £99 DP1 within the next 12 months... fire sales aren't that rare in this high risk market.

I enjoyed your latest comparison - it would have been good to see a GR2 shot of that same landscape, or even the LX1.

Kind Regards

Brian
 
A

asabet

Guest
I suppose the price will be whatever the market will bear - demand vs supply will ultimately dictate the price. If Sigma don't drop the price early to match demand, they'll be left with loads of stock to clear and Adam-T will have his £99 DP1 within the next 12 months... fire sales aren't that rare in this high risk market.
Yes, though I wonder just how many of these they are actually making? I'd think it would be wise to keep production low and scale up for the replacement if this one is a hit.

I enjoyed your latest comparison - it would have been good to see a GR2 shot of that same landscape, or even the LX1.
Thanks Brian, the landscape comparison with small sensor cameras will be coming separately.
 

Brian Mosley

New member
Amin, I've just e-mailed you a couple of conversions from your RAW files. I noticed that the lighting had changed between shots (obviously, people had moved around a lot) - but it's a remarkably close result. The DP1 is doing really well - I think it delivers DSLR quality in a compact cam...

Since you're into serious compacts, did you see the mention on dpreview of yet another breakthrough in small sensor technology here :
http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/digital-camera-sensor-loves-low-lighting-323895

Just imagine a Panasonic TZ50 with Nikon D3 IQ and performance... where would the DSLR market be then? :bugeyes:

Kind Regards

Brian
 
A

asabet

Guest
Amin, I've just e-mailed you a couple of conversions from your RAW files. I noticed that the lighting had changed between shots (obviously, people had moved around a lot) - but it's a remarkably close result. The DP1 is doing really well - I think it delivers DSLR quality in a compact cam...
Thanks Brian! Those people were moving fast, but the photos were taken within a couple minutes of one another, and I noticed no change in light during the time. If you're referring to the fact that the DP1 shot is less bright than the E-420 shot, that is something I am seeing pretty consistently, and I don't have a good explanation for it. I agree with you about the DP1 image quality.

Since you're into serious compacts, did you see the mention on dpreview of yet another breakthrough in small sensor technology here :
http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/digital-camera-sensor-loves-low-lighting-323895

Just imagine a Panasonic TZ50 with Nikon D3 IQ and performance... where would the DSLR market be then? :bugeyes:

Kind Regards

Brian
Thanks for that - hadn't seen that one. I wish I could read Japanese!
 
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Lili

New member
Amin,
Fascinating tests!
The DP-1 does indeed 'deliver the goods' as it were.
Makes it ever so much more tempting...
 

Brian Mosley

New member
Hi Lili,

if I had to choose again, between the GR2 and the DP1 - I'd make the same choice. The 28mm fixed fov was more of a shock than I expected though - it's an expensive niche camera - but if you really want that niche (which I do!) then it's the only game in town at the moment.

This sector is moving so fast though, I wonder what will be available, at what price by Christmas? Amin, did you mention a successor to the LX2? any pointers on further info?

Kind Regards

Brian
 
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