The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

GR-D II exposure metering lag?

S

Sean_Reid

Guest
Hi Walt,

Different strokes...I actually find the M8's metering to be quite good and it gives me faster access to exposure controls than any other digital cameras I've used. Some day we will meet up and put both cameras in an exposure change race <G>. In any case, I'm happy that the GR II is working out so well for you.

Cheers,

Sean
 

Maggie O

Active member
I'll second what Sean said about the M8. It really is the camera I've been looking for, for quite a while.
 
W

Walt

Guest
Sean and Maggie-

Well I haven't thrown my two M8s in the garbage yet, but I don't get your relationships to this camera and can't imagine how I ever could. I couldn't even sell these two cameras in good conscience unless it was to someone who really, really, really knew what he was getting into. And it would be a total "as is" deal. This is from a guy who used a pair of M4s from 1967 to 1998 and thought they were fine and never gave them a thought. After one of my M4s was stolen, I got a "replacement" M4-2 and after a year and a half of trying to get Leica Canada to make the camera working reliably, I did actually throw it in the garbage and bought a used M4. Some things in life are not worth the aggravation at any cost.

Just reviewing an image on the Ricoh screen and not having it jump back and forth is a breath of fresh air, forget actually shooting with the camera.

Walt
 

Maggie O

Active member
My M8 has been quite good to me- maybe that's because I got one in August of this year, with the then-current firmware. I've had one lockup and I hardly ever chimp, so the "crazy wheel" never bothered me much. FWIW, I don't see "crazy wheel" since the last firmware update. Mine, knock wood, just seems to work and fits my way of shooting.

I like rangefinders and my M8 makes gorgeous files. Heck, I'm still thrilled that I don't have to wait to finish a roll of film to shoot either indoors or out!

If I had a camera as balky as the two you've got, I may very well be singing a very different tune.
 
A

asabet

Guest
Using snap mode on the GX100, I also have a shutter lag due to metering. It isn't excessive, but it's longer than I would like. I sometimes address it by using a half press to set the metering and holding it that way until the moment presents itself. At other times, I shoot in manual mode, but for mixed lighting I find that the half press method is quicker and more reliable.
 
W

Walt

Guest
Using snap mode on the GX100, I also have a shutter lag due to metering. It isn't excessive, but it's longer than I would like. I sometimes address it by using a half press to set the metering and holding it that way until the moment presents itself. At other times, I shoot in manual mode, but for mixed lighting I find that the half press method is quicker and more reliable.
I normally use the half press if I have any time at all before a shot, not so much to lock the exposure, but to make the release smoother and faster--faster just because there's less distance to travel. So maybe this is why I never notice a delay.

But do you see this in manual focus too? When you say "manual mode" I assume you are referring to aperture and shutter settings. I'm wondering if the aperture priority metering can take that much time. Is not the aperture and shutter in this camera one set of blades that open to a certain size aperture for a certain period of time? If that is true, there should be no delay in actuating the blades, just the exposure determination time. Does anyone know how this works?

Walt
 
W

Walt

Guest
My M8 has been quite good to me- maybe that's because I got one in August of this year, with the then-current firmware. I've had one lockup and I hardly ever chimp, so the "crazy wheel" never bothered me much. FWIW, I don't see "crazy wheel" since the last firmware update. Mine, knock wood, just seems to work and fits my way of shooting.

I like rangefinders and my M8 makes gorgeous files. Heck, I'm still thrilled that I don't have to wait to finish a roll of film to shoot either indoors or out!

If I had a camera as balky as the two you've got, I may very well be singing a very different tune.
Maggie-

I'm curious if you come from film M's and if your rangefinder experience is 35mm or larger format rangefinders. If I were coming from a 6x7 rangefinder I'd probably find the M8 more svelte. I'm sure that part of my dissatisfaction with this camera is the inevitable expectation that it function like an M film camera. I am aware that digital cameras are more complex, but there are certain things that I expect to carry over from the film cameras--the accurate frame lines, smooth shutter release, etc. My only other experience with "35mm" digital cameras are with the small Canon SLRs and, though I don't like SLRs, I found these cameras seamless and refined in their operation. I may not have liked what they were, but they were what they were with a certain excellence and consistency. So this is another set of expectations that I come to the M8 with. The Ricoh is like the Canons in this regard--it seems a refined, well-executed, mature design albeit with some details I'd like to see done differently.

Walt
 
A

asabet

Guest
I normally use the half press if I have any time at all before a shot, not so much to lock the exposure, but to make the release smoother and faster--faster just because there's less distance to travel. So maybe this is why I never notice a delay.
That would explain it.

But do you see this in manual focus too? When you say "manual mode" I assume you are referring to aperture and shutter settings. I'm wondering if the aperture priority metering can take that much time. Is not the aperture and shutter in this camera one set of blades that open to a certain size aperture for a certain period of time? If that is true, there should be no delay in actuating the blades, just the exposure determination time. Does anyone know how this works?

Walt
Walt, I haven't used manual focus very much. Either setting the exposure manually or using a half press addresses the lag when using snap focus, so I assume the lag is due to exposure determination.
 
S

sammysbar

Guest
Thank your Sean, Asebet and Walt for your responses. I would have answered sooner but had to read the entire “Continuation” thread first. Your answers were right on the mark for me.
Walt, regarding your question about manual mode and aperture priority - I do not have the answer nor do I think you will find the answer directly in the following links; however, these links might be helpful.
The first link: is a recent New York Times article entitled, ‘Seizing the Moment.’ You will have to register, but it’s free and no spam. The second link is the CIPA draft of definitions.(see Draft E-1 No. 43, Shutter release time lag and No., 44 Shooting time lag.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/t...92320-ukxhjfxWVoNvwafWUD0rjA&pagewanted=print

CIPA Specifications Guideline for Digital Cameras: Email: Digital ...
Latest News Reviews / Previews Camera Database Timeline Buying Guide Sample Galleries Discussion Forums Learn / Glossary Feedback Newsletter Links RSS Feeds ...
www.dpreview.com/news/article_email.asp?date=0706&article=070604cipadraftspecsguide - 7k - Cached - Similar pages


Thanks again. I hope this information is new and helpful- the CIPA link is something I found on another website so it’s probably well known, the NYT’s link is something that’s automatically emailed and maybe not everyone has seen it. Sammy.
 
S

Sean_Reid

Guest
Sean and Maggie-

Well I haven't thrown my two M8s in the garbage yet, but I don't get your relationships to this camera and can't imagine how I ever could. I couldn't even sell these two cameras in good conscience unless it was to someone who really, really, really knew what he was getting into. And it would be a total "as is" deal. This is from a guy who used a pair of M4s from 1967 to 1998 and thought they were fine and never gave them a thought. After one of my M4s was stolen, I got a "replacement" M4-2 and after a year and a half of trying to get Leica Canada to make the camera working reliably, I did actually throw it in the garbage and bought a used M4. Some things in life are not worth the aggravation at any cost.

Just reviewing an image on the Ricoh screen and not having it jump back and forth is a breath of fresh air, forget actually shooting with the camera.

Walt
Hi Walt,

I imagine this particular conversation could go on forever. Clearly, the M8 suits some people better than others and, beyond that, there's really little that can be generalized. I get weary of reading the M8 constantly criticized but, fortunately, here the discussion is mostly going to be about other cameras.

Perhaps the concerns about the M8 could be discussed in the M8 forum here?

I should be able to start testing the GR II in earnest in a couple of weeks and I'll try to look at the lag questions.

Cheers,

Sean
 
Last edited:

Maggie O

Active member
Walt, I used to shoot a Nikon F3, and an Olympus OM-2 (only at work, as a staff writer/photographer, we had to use the paper's equipment) for most of my work, but also had a Canon GIII QL (my first 35mm camera) and an Olympus XA. There was a period where I really didn't do much shooting, save some GIII and SX-70 work (I got burnt out) and the Polaroid eventually got replaced by a couple of Canon digital Elphs, which eventually got replaced by my D-Lux 3.

So, what you've got with me is someone who remembers shooting with an F3, but who got used to digital point-and shoots and then stepped up to the small sensor Leica and then, wanting a digital camera that felt like a "real camera" got an M8. If Nikon had a "digital F3," I probably would have gone with it. I like manual controls and a shutter with zero lag. The M8 is really the only game in town and it's like an even better version of my GIII.

Speaking of medium format, I've got a 645 lying in a closet...I wonder if C1 makes a back for it? Ooops! We can carry this conversation on in other threads. Sorry Sean.
 
W

Walt

Guest
That would explain it.



Walt, I haven't used manual focus very much. Either setting the exposure manually or using a half press addresses the lag when using snap focus, so I assume the lag is due to exposure determination.
Amin-

On your last point, unless the snap focus is a hyperfocal distance, and thus dependent on aperture. I'm not sure how it works. In that case, you would have to have a reading before focus could be set. I wasn't clear on that reasoning and if snap is just a particular distance then it's obviously not that.

Walt
 
W

Walt

Guest
Using snap mode on the GX100, I also have a shutter lag due to metering. It isn't excessive, but it's longer than I would like. I sometimes address it by using a half press to set the metering and holding it that way until the moment presents itself. At other times, I shoot in manual mode, but for mixed lighting I find that the half press method is quicker and more reliable.
Amin,

I've been out photographing this morning and deliberately not going to the first stop but using a single push all the way through. I still have no delay at all. I do, incidentally, have the shutter sound turned on so that I can hear it, and it is this sound that I am largely using to determine firing, though I do not see off-timing when I look at the images either. So, I'm not sure what's going on, but the snap setting is the one operational difference I see here. If it is a fixed position, then it offers nothing over manual exposure and if it's a hyperfocal one (and changing with aperture), it's probably going to have a delay. Can you try manual focus just for your experience on this?

Walt
 
W

Walt

Guest
Walt, I used to shoot a Nikon F3, and an Olympus OM-2 (only at work, as a staff writer/photographer, we had to use the paper's equipment) for most of my work, but also had a Canon GIII QL (my first 35mm camera) and an Olympus XA. There was a period where I really didn't do much shooting, save some GIII and SX-70 work (I got burnt out) and the Polaroid eventually got replaced by a couple of Canon digital Elphs, which eventually got replaced by my D-Lux 3.

So, what you've got with me is someone who remembers shooting with an F3, but who got used to digital point-and shoots and then stepped up to the small sensor Leica and then, wanting a digital camera that felt like a "real camera" got an M8. If Nikon had a "digital F3," I probably would have gone with it. I like manual controls and a shutter with zero lag. The M8 is really the only game in town and it's like an even better version of my GIII.

Speaking of medium format, I've got a 645 lying in a closet...I wonder if C1 makes a back for it? Ooops! We can carry this conversation on in other threads. Sorry Sean.
Maggie-

Yes, that's a different background with cameras and a different expectation in many ways. What we have in common is that I also expected the M8 to be "a real digital camera," by which I had a Leica M in mind, I now realize. I'm finding the GR-D a real camera and I suspect that that is hard for many people simply because of its size and, yes, also a few of the compromises that are dictated by that size (particularly the menu driven contols that would be better done with physical controls). Image wise it's at least as real as any film Leica loaded with Tri-X or, at ISO 200 or lower, Plus-X. I would not be at all be surprised if Ricoh, a customer-centric company apparently, is considering something more like a real camera based on the GRD concept. I can't wait.

Best,
Walt
 
S

sammysbar

Guest
Re: manual focus using hyperfocal and aperture priority:

Could it be the same time as the time reported for a half to full press lag (using external viewfinder)? For the GR-D according to dpreview that is: .03.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohgrd/page4.asp

Unfortunately, I have no idea if this is correct, simply assuming manual focus overrides the AF time. (Full press lag (using Snap AF) amounts to .2.Thus AF in this mode amounts to .17) Anybody really know for sure?

Based on Walt’s experience with the GR-DII as reported above, assuming I understand his preliminary conclusions, the time for manual focus using hyperfocal very well may have been improved.

While waiting for the reviews anybody know if this formula for determining total shooting time in manual focus is correct for the Ricoh and might it work for other cameras as well? Thanks again. Sammy
 
Top