Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

[Sean_Reid]

Hi Jono,

My G9 review should be done next week. The camera has various strengths but two notable weaknesses:

1) Manual focus can only be used if the LCD is left on
2) The camera has about a .6 second shutter lag in manual focus mode (even with manual exposure and manual WB).

Cheers,

Sean

 

[jonoslack]

Jono, the D-LUX 3 has no hot shoe, so adding an OVF is not easily done. The G9 is a step towards your M8 in size and weight. Regarding the GX100, if you plan to shoot it mainly at 28mm in 4:3 format, the GV-1 is a great accessory. If you like 28mm and 35mm, especially in 3:2 format, then the CV 28/35 Minifinder is excellent.

Thank you Amin
I hadn't thought of putting an accessory finder on the GX100 - My wife has a G8, so I'm aware of the size, and my son has a D-LUX2, and I briefly owned a GX100 (I swapped with Wilson Laidlaw for some goodies before I'd really got to grips with it).

I don't have a very good history of success with small sensor cameras, I'm really interested in finding the one that is 'least irritating'.

Other people's input is very helpful (dunno why this causes me so much anguish, I bought an M8 without a second's consideration!).

 

[jonoslack]

HI Sean

Hi Jono,

My G9 review should be done next week. The camera has various strengths but two notable weaknesses:

1) Manual focus can only be used if the LCD is left on
2) The camera has about a .6 second shutter lag in manual focus mode (even with manual exposure and manual WB).

Cheers,

Sean

Ahh . . . I could manage with 1), but 2) would drive me crazy.

As I said to Amin, I haven't had much luck with small sensor cameras in the past, and it seems to me that zone focusing and manual focus is almost certainly the way to avoid irritation.
The attraction of the G9 was the optical viewfinder (poxy though it may be!).

For me it's definitely a case of the 'least worst' option. It's becoming relevant as we go skiing in a few weeks, and I'd like not to carry a bag around with me this year!

Your reviews are particularly helpful - not simply in terms of the quality of the results, but also in terms of the actual useage of the thing.

 

[Terry]

Hi Jono,

My G9 review should be done next week. The camera has various strengths but two notable weaknesses:

1) Manual focus can only be used if the LCD is left on
2) The camera has about a .6 second shutter lag in manual focus mode (even with manual exposure and manual WB).

Cheers,

Sean

Sean,
This is really interesting because I always thought on manual focus the lag time was the same as the time from half to full press of the shutter when using AF (meaning the first bit of time in the half press was the AF and the second bit the real lag time). I always looked at those times on DPReview. Good to know that my thought process is flawed! I wonder why on the G9 they slow it down and what is going on in the camera because their half to full press time is pretty normal.

 

[stnami]

I haven't had much luck with small sensor cameras in the past

.. at first I really liked what the GRD produced but then it sorta lost me, the size was ok and it's footprint was too dominant. In the end I figured that I either take photos or I do something else, so I don't really need small to carry around. I went back to the D2 for my wide DOF images, I know the camera and It does produce fantastic results for it's sensor size..........
I considered a small sensor camera like the G9 for some minor movie stuff, it just didn't cut the mustard went for a HV-20 instead, better a purpose built item than a all rounder........

taste good


all this is not a decisive moment

 

[jonoslack]

all this is not a decisive moment

Quite right - sorry - missing the point - when you say D2 do you mean d-lux2?

 

[stnami]

I mean the old Digilux 2..light, not small....... it's great portrait camera and works on the streets as well

 

[Sean_Reid]

Thank you Amin
I hadn't thought of putting an accessory finder on the GX100 - My wife has a G8, so I'm aware of the size, and my son has a D-LUX2, and I briefly owned a GX100 (I swapped with Wilson Laidlaw for some goodies before I'd really got to grips with it).
.

Hi Jono,

Take a look at the GX100 review for the discussion about using a set of finders with the step zoom.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

2) The camera has about a .6 second shutter lag in manual focus mode (even with manual exposure and manual WB).

I found a related anomaly a while ago when I did a lab experiment to understand how my E-1 does its power management. In manual focus mode (using a focus-by-wire ring on the lenses) the E-1 consumes more power than in autofocus. That's because the servos (electronics and motors inside the lens) that are employed when focusing manually stay powered up until the shot is taken. When you autofocus, this stuff shuts down once you have half-pressed and hold the shutter button ready. Presumably in the G9 there is some overhead in relieving an internal microcontroller of its job in focusing and getting it ready to take the picture. Even so, 0.6 seconds seems long. How did you measure it?

scott

 

[Sean_Reid]

HI Sean

Ahh . . . I could manage with 1), but 2) would drive me crazy....

Both aspects were significant problems for me.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Sean_Reid]

Quite right - sorry - missing the point - when you say D2 do you mean d-lux2?

Don't worry about it. We sometimes drift a bit on this forum. And, actually, a 6/10 second shutter lag affects shutter release timing quite a bit. i.e.: One can't be decisive if a camera won't cooperate.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Sean_Reid]

I found a related anomaly a while ago when I did a lab experiment to understand how my E-1 does its power management. In manual focus mode (using a focus-by-wire ring on the lenses) the E-1 consumes more power than in autofocus. That's because the servos (electronics and motors inside the lens) that are employed when focusing manually stay powered up until the shot is taken. When you autofocus, this stuff shuts down once you have half-pressed and hold the shutter button ready. Presumably in the G9 there is some overhead in relieving an internal microcontroller of its job in focusing and getting it ready to take the picture. Even so, 0.6 seconds seems long. How did you measure it?

scott

Hi Scott,

Interesting about the E1.

Intuitively, the G9 seemed very slow in MF mode. I became particularly aware of the problem when I was doing some simple panning pictures with both the G9 and the GX100.

My method was to photograph an on-screen stopwatch and then adjust for the confounding variables. The reason that I report "about" 6/10 second is that my method doesn't allow me to be accurate to the hundredths.

To confirm my own results, though, I checked the review by Imaging Resource (whom I've written for in the past), and they got about the same number for the G9.

I'm scooping my own review here...oops. More when its released. Meanwhile, here are Imaging-Resources numbers:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/G9/G9A6.HTM

Cheers,

Sean

 

[jonoslack]

Don't worry about it. We sometimes drift a bit on this forum. And, actually, a 6/10 second shutter lag affects shutter release timing quite a bit. i.e.: One can't be decisive if a camera won't cooperate.

Cheers,

Sean

6/10th second certainly is missing the point.
it's really the idea of using these cameras in manual focus mode that has got me interested again - it was principally shutter lag which had made me give up in the first place.
I'll now go and look at the idea of using VF and the step zoom in your review (I had read it before, but my concentration span was obviously too small!)

 

[Sean_Reid]

Sean,
This is really interesting because I always thought on manual focus the lag time was the same as the time from half to full press of the shutter when using AF (meaning the first bit of time in the half press was the AF and the second bit the real lag time). I always looked at those times on DPReview. Good to know that my thought process is flawed! I wonder why on the G9 they slow it down and what is going on in the camera because their half to full press time is pretty normal.

Back when I started testing cameras I thought the same thing. But it often ain't so. More about this after I finish and publish the review.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Sean_Reid]

6/10th second certainly is missing the point.
it's really the idea of using these cameras in manual focus mode that has got me interested again - it was principally shutter lag which had made me give up in the first place.
I'll now go and look at the idea of using VF and the step zoom in your review (I had read it before, but my concentration span was obviously too small!)

The only way I've ever gotten any small sensor camera to be truly responsive (lift the camera from my side to my eye and have the shutter trip right away) is with manual focus. None of them is fast to AF (the Sony V1 was close). Some people use the half-press to pre-focus, followed by a full shutter press, but that doesn't work for me when I'm shooting quickly.

For fast work, speaking only for my personal needs, if a camera doesn't trip the shutter immediately when in MF mode, it's useless to me.

Yes, 6/10 second is missing the "decisive moment" (the visual peak as the photographer perceives it) by a mile.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Sean_Reid]

I mean the old Digilux 2..light, not small....... it's great portrait camera and works on the streets as well

That camera has always made some of the most beautiful small sensor files I've ever seen though it struggles at ISO 400 if the exposure isn't dead on.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/leica-digilux2-part1.shtml

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Terry]

Hi Scott,

To confirm my own results, though, I checked the review by Imaging Resource (whom I've written for in the past), and they got about the same number for the G9.

I'm scooping my own review here...oops. More when its released. Meanwhile, here are Imaging-Resources numbers:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/G9/G9A6.HTM

Cheers,

Sean

Thanks Sean,
I just went looking at various cameras on imaging resource. Very interesting. Well, it definitely falls in the category of "you learn something new everyday"!

Terry

 

[Sean_Reid]

Dave Etchells is an engineer and they're very thorough about that kind of testing.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[asabet]

Thank you Amin
I hadn't thought of putting an accessory finder on the GX100 - My wife has a G8, so I'm aware of the size, and my son has a D-LUX2, and I briefly owned a GX100 (I swapped with Wilson Laidlaw for some goodies before I'd really got to grips with it).

I don't have a very good history of success with small sensor cameras, I'm really interested in finding the one that is 'least irritating'.

Other people's input is very helpful (dunno why this causes me so much anguish, I bought an M8 without a second's consideration!).

Jono, adding an OVF removes the lag associated with "watching history," as you put it. I found the combination quite rewarding. Personall, if I were going to lug the M8 everywhere anyway, I wouldn't carry a compact camera as well. Instead, I'd use the extra space to carry another lens. I found the GX100 most useful for the times when I was unwilling to carry a larger camera kit as well as the times when I was seeking to be unobtrusive. As a small, silent, plain black camera, the GX100 attracts very little attention.

 

[tt113]

My G9 review should be done next week. The camera has various strengths but two notable weaknesses:

1) Manual focus can only be used if the LCD is left on
2) The camera has about a .6 second shutter lag in manual focus mode (even with manual exposure and manual WB).

Sean

It does seem like the G9 is slower than the G7 in terms of manual focusing speed. According to Imaing-resource.com, the manual focusing speed of G7 is 0.24 second. My own experience confirms that fact because my G7 can snap a shot as fast as my Panasonic Lx1 in manual focus mode (except the G7 slows down when using iso 400 and up).
It is sad that canon just swap a sensor from the G7 without upgrading the internal processing power. Not just the manual focusing speed is slower, the shot-to-shot time and continuous mode are also slower in the G9.
In terms of AF speed, my fuji f30 in high-speed mode seems to me acceptable, but it has the worst user-interface.