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GRDII vs. G9 (vs. LX2) - a couple of questions

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simon_t

Guest
Hello all,

I'm looking for a new compact camera to live alongside my DSLR, replacing my aging Canon S45. I intend to use this as my carry-around camera, so I'd like it to be small and fairly robust, but capable of producing very good files (incl. RAW) if I bump into a photo opportunity. Also, I often take photos at parties. My preferred settings for party photos are: MF, slow sync + exp. compensation *and* flash compensation (-1.5 or so).

These requirements have narrowed down the field quite a bit. The candidates are: Ricoh GRDII, Canon G9 and Panasonic LX2. However, I still have a few open questions and I hope you can answer some of them.

1) On the LX2, is it true that you cannot select slow sync flash without red-eye reduction? The manual seems to say so. If that's the case, it'll be too slow for my needs, leaving the GRDII and G9.

2) On the GRDII and G9, can you use slow sync flash, exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation in any combination?

3) How is the flash exposure on the GRDII?

4) I have looked around on Flickr to find some full-size samples from each camera. I was very disappointed in many of the GRDII shots: watercolor-like blotchiness at all ISO values, especially 200+. However, the shots in Sean's review seem fine. Can I conclude that the RAW files are OK, but the JPG engine is not so hot (Canon appears much better)?

5) On the GRDII, do you need to save a JPG along with every RAW file? The RAW files seem awfully large from the spec sheets (approx. 20MB).

6) Yesterday, I have fondled both the GRDII and the G9 in the store. I immediately got along with the GRDII, whereas the G9 seemed a little cluttered/confusing. Of course, this is a first impression only. Are there any other people who have used both cameras? Does the handling improve over time? (I did also read Sean's review)

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Simon
 
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H

helgipelgi

Guest
6) Yesterday, I have fondled both the GRDII and the G9 in the store. I immediately got along with the GRDII, whereas the G9 seemed a little cluttered/confusing.
I think you've got the answer right there!
 
S

simon_t

Guest
I think you've got the answer right there!
I'm certainly partial to the GRDII, but if, for example, the flash controls aren't up to snuff I'm off to buy the Canon. There are some things the camera needs to do well (flash control, exposure control, MF, decent quality) and some things I would prefer (intuitive handling, small size). Hence my questions :)
 

kai.e.g.

Member
Hi Simon,
Just out of curiosity (because I'm facing exactly the same decision as you soon), what made you eliminate the GX-100 from your finalists?
Cheers,
Kai
 
Hello all,

.....
1) On the LX2, is it true that you cannot select slow sync flash without red-eye reduction? The manual seems to say so. If that's the case, it'll be too slow for my needs, leaving the GRDII and G9.

...
Hi Simon,

I bought the Dlux 3 just 3 days ago, after comparing it to both the G9 and the two Ricoh offerings. The G9 was quickly eliminated, mainly because of its size and general feel (this was just before Sean´s review..), and the GRD II because I felt too restricted by only 28 mm.

So it was either the Dlux 3 or the GX 100. Very close contenders; my final choice was based mainly on the feel of the two, the Dlux 3 felt more solid and less "plastic-y". But I also liked the 16:9 screen a lot. The Ricoh was much easier to hold, however.

Now, after shooting away for 3 days (and nights...:sleep006:), I´m growing more and more happy with my choice. This tiny toy can do a LOT! And the image quality is excellent (only tried raw, and I doubt that I´ll ever shoot any jpeg).

As for your flash question above: no, you cannot have slow-sync without the red-eye fireworks....:mad: However, it is easy to fool the system into cooperating: select forced-on flash (you still control it by raising the flash or pushing it closed), and use shutter priority with a suitable time setting; also reduce flash output 1 step or so.

That said, I personally find all such small built-in flashes next to useless, with the sole exception of the "bounce-able" flash on my Digilux 2.

Hope this helps, subjective as it is. I´d at least look at the Dlux 3/LX 2 if I were you...
 

Maggie O

Active member
As for your flash question above: no, you cannot have slow-sync without the red-eye fireworks....:mad: However, it is easy to fool the system into cooperating: select forced-on flash (you still control it by raising the flash or pushing it closed), and use shutter priority with a suitable time setting; also reduce flash output 1 step or so.

That said, I personally find all such small built-in flashes next to useless, with the sole exception of the "bounce-able" flash on my Digilux 2.

Hope this helps, subjective as it is. I´d at least look at the Dlux 3/LX 2 if I were you...
I'm not sure what "slow-sync" flash is, or what you mean by that, but if you're looking to do flash and slash type shooting with a low shutter speed, the D-Lux 3/LX2 is totally able to do that- I just shot some tests with these settings: Shutter-priority, 1/6 sec, forced flash, flash exposure compensation at -1, manual focus (zone between 1 meter and infinity) and the only limitation was flash recycle time. There was no red eye pre-flashing or anything like that.
 
I'm not sure what "slow-sync" flash is, or what you mean by that, but if you're looking to do flash and slash type shooting with a low shutter speed, the D-Lux 3/LX2 is totally able to do that- I just shot some tests with these settings: Shutter-priority, 1/6 sec, forced flash, flash exposure compensation at -1, manual focus (zone between 1 meter and infinity) and the only limitation was flash recycle time. There was no red eye pre-flashing or anything like that.
Yep, that´s exactly what I said :clap: Happy to hear it works for more experienced Dlux 3 users than myself... (I´m very impressed by your images, Maggie!).

In any case, this method gives you far better control than a built-in program would.
 
S

simon_t

Guest
Per & Maggie,
Thank you for pointing out that my demand for a perfectly working slow-sync function may not be strictly necessary. In most cases I can probably get away with setting the shutter speed manually. So...the LX2 is back in the game (the Leica is too expensive at almost twice the price).

The other thing that worries me about the LX2 is the sensor noise. From looking at the various reviews, it seems that the LX2 JPG engine tries to outdo the GRDII engine at watercolor-painting, so it would mostly be a RAW camera for me. Has anyone compared RAW files from the LX2 and GRDII?

Simon
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Simon,

I bought the Dlux 3 just 3 days ago, after comparing it to both the G9 and the two Ricoh offerings. The G9 was quickly eliminated, mainly because of its size and general feel (this was just before Sean´s review..), and the GRD II because I felt too restricted by only 28 mm.

So it was either the Dlux 3 or the GX 100. Very close contenders; my final choice was based mainly on the feel of the two, the Dlux 3 felt more solid and less "plastic-y". But I also liked the 16:9 screen a lot. The Ricoh was much easier to hold, however.
Hi Per
I went through exactly the same thought processes and ended up with the d-lux3; only with me the final choice between that and the GX100 was the longer focal length and the 16:9. It's interesting shooting with a different ratio.

Like you, I'm really pleased with the camera - sure, there is some noise, but I've done a couple of large prints - (on 17" roll paper - so, 26" or so). They look just fine.

I was a little worried by not being able to attach an external viewfinder . . then I realised that when in low light I'm much more likely to have an M8 around with a 28 or 50mm fast lens.

The case is nice too!
 

Maggie O

Active member
Thanks for the kind words, Per!

Simon, the D-Lux 3's JPEGs are useable up to ISO 400 for most images and, for the right images, even ISO 800, though it gets a little tricky. Here's an ISO 800 JPEG of mine:




The ISO 800 RAW files are great and surprisingly robust. Ever since I got the San Disk card, I've shot nothing but RAW.
 
S

simon_t

Guest
Jono and Maggie,
Thank you for sharing your high-ISO experiences with the D-Lux 3. In the meantime I have also gotten my hands on some LX2 RAW files, and the noise seems to be fine (compared to cameras from the same class). Also, there are some chromatic aberrations that are easily fixed. The RAW noise reduction is quite noticable, though, if you try to extract details from the shadows. No camera is perfect, and it seems the D-Lux3/LX2 is best used for fairly contrasty shots where the visible effects of noise reduction are pushed into the shadows.... I'll have to see how that compares with the niggles of other cameras.

Talking about those other cameras, can anyone comment about the GRDII's flash performance (incl. compensation)?
 
S

simon_t

Guest
Ok, I will bump this only once... does anyone have experience with the flash (and flash compensation) on the GRDII?

Thanks,
Simon
 

simonclivehughes

Active member
Simon,

I only just received my GRDII but from my experience with the GRDI, which had no compensation mechanism, the biggest issue is the flash being so close to the lens. I remember I taped a small piece of diffuser over the flash lens to tame it as it tended to be overly strong, especially for a fill-flash application. The new GRD does allow up to +/- 2EV in 0.3EV steps. But, it is still so close to the lens that you virtually guarantee red-eye.

Personally, I will use my Leica SF 24D (on auto) with a Nikon off-camera cord so that I can aim the flash for bouncing.

Cheers,
 

Lili

New member
With firmware 2.40 the GRD I does have flash compensation, this make the on-camera flash useable.
I do not have the GRD II, thinking very strongly about getting a GX-100 though.
 
C

Chuck A

Guest
Simon,

You are going through the same decision process that many people on this forum have gone through. These are all good cameras. The G9 was a bit too large for me also. The GX100 begged me to buy it but I think it needs one more generation to be perfected. I am hoping for a GX200 in a year or so. The GRDII is great in just about every way except for the 28mm FOV. For the meantime I bought the LX2 and I like it. Having had it only a few days I have not had the time to use it much. I noticed that the LX2 can be a bit hard to hold onto, especially for long periods. The grip in the GRD and GX100 is much better. I will have to experiment though and it will take me a while to get acquainted with the LX2.
 

nostatic

New member
I have already dropped my D-Lux3. Slippery little devil. The LX2 has the little grip thingy but still hard to hold imho. I'm going to put a piece of friction tape on the front to help. Plus I don't use the thumb rest on the upper right of the back of the camera. Instead I hold it with my thumb along the lower right back edge of the camera, index on the top and middle curled on the front.

Use your wrist strap. I've already got 3 dents from a 4' drop onto concrete :p
 
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helgipelgi

Guest
It is a surprisingly tough decision process, and I've now put my LX2 up for sale and ordered a GRDII. I'd love to own both, because the LX2 is a good camera and has that wonderful 16:9 aspect ratio, but it feels wasteful to have more (new) cameras than you can use.

So, roll on GRDII!
 
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