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Sigma DP1 vs Oly E420 vs GRD II

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Mitch Alland

Guest
...you could use the 14-42mm f3.5-f5.6 lens for an EFL of 28-84mm and plenty of dof... plus shooting at ISO 3200 would perhaps give you a head start on getting your signature style (which is fantastic. by the way!)...
....It's also worth mentioning that this zoom lens of which Brian talks weighs . . . 190 gm and focuses down to 25cm - it's also very sharp, and I second his opinion, crank up the ISO and you'll be where you want to be!
for your other pocket there is a 40-150 (80-300) which only weighs 220 gms

The pancake lens weighs 95 gm

all small enough to go on your belt without trouble!
Thanks for the kind words, Brian.

Brian, Jono: Great minds think alike: I was also thinking about the 14-42mm lens and pushing ISO to 3200 to work around the f3.5-f5.6 maximum aperture limitation. The only issue with that is that I use the LCD rather than the viewfinder for framing and the LCD is going to be (disconcertedly?) dark at ISO 3200 — but that may not matter because I look at the subject when pressing the shutter button and only use the LCD for loosely establishing the edges of the frame: I'll have to try this.

AS state above I certainly am much more interested in the Olympus E420 than in the Sigma DP1, but most likely won't buy it because I like the results that I'm getting with the GRD2 so much that I don't feel the need for "more image quality", as you can see in the pictures in following thread:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=942

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
 
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Mitch Alland

Guest
While there have been a number of posts on a number of sites to the effect that the E-420/ 25 pancake combo eliminates the need for the DP1, I don't see it that way...Although there is overlap between these two cameras, there are plenty of differences; and to me, both cameras make sense as photographic tools.
That's not the way I see it; nor is it the way the market is likely to see it either, not least for the reason of the general reputation of Olympus and Ricoh as camera and lens makers compared to that of Sigma. I can see going the with the GDR2 or the E420, or with both; but if the E420 and it's lens are as good as expected a large portion of the DP1's market has suddenly evaporated — or at least as far as my needs are concerned. Time will tell...

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
 

kai.e.g.

Member
I have to agree with Mitch. Especially if Olympus take the E420 one "little" step further down the track and remove the "reflex" aspect of the camera (no mirror, no prism, no slr "hump") - shaving off the entire top plate of the camera, and either eliminate the flash (keep the flash shoe!!) or make it a little pop-up one like DP1/Ricoh. They'd be approaching something along the lines of a Canon G9 in length/height, except with 4/3rds sensor and interchangeable lens, including the possibility of the skinny pancake. They'd retain the SLR's lens register distance, just to make existing lenses compatible, at the obvious cost of increased thickness.... but my word the flexibility and ease of transport would turn heads. Now I can speculate more easily on why the president of Sigma was recently quoted with promises of more models of DP1-like cameras before the year's end (in any other circumstance a crazy thing to reveal) - I wonder if he knew competition was soon about to tighten up!
 
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Mitch Alland

Guest
Kai, I'd be surprised if Olympus got rid of the "vestigial" reflex hump as they probably don't need to do it for competitive reasons. Is it really likely that the reflex VF on the E420 would be so poor that people would want to see it go? Är det möjligt?

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
 

kai.e.g.

Member
I suppose I was thinking of it more as an avenue of approach for Olympus should they want to enter the high-end compact market... but you might be right that the market itself wouldn't care about the body size if the lenses are in any case relatively hefty (certainly when compared to "real" compacts). Most people would prefer the TTL view of course. It's probably just me who hates the resulting bulge :)

Är det möjligt
You're just one country too far to the west for my 2nd language, but I do have a Swedish-English dictionary handy :)
 
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PeterLeyssens

Guest
Kai, I'd be surprised if Olympus got rid of the "vestigial" reflex hump as they probably don't need to do it for competitive reasons. Is it really likely that the reflex VF on the E420 would be so poor that people would want to see it go?
I agree: people recognise SLRs by their hump. Olympus already tried to get rid of the hump in their E-3xx series. Aside from how good a tool those cameras may be, Olympus switched back to a hump and I'm guessing it'll stay that way. It's a bit of a macho thing like a big spoiler on a car: you may not need it, but people recognise it as a sports car.

I personally wouldn't mind, though. Taking out the viewfinder and that silly built-in flash would reduce the size even more. I'm considering an external viewfinder anyway, not just because I hear FourThirds viewfinders are tunnel like. That can be solved to some extent with the ME-1 1.2x eyecup. But I think I'd miss having the surroundings in the viewfinder, like a rangefinder shows it.


Peter.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I agree: people recognise SLRs by their hump. Olympus already tried to get rid of the hump in their E-3xx series. Aside from how good a tool those cameras may be, Olympus switched back to a hump and I'm guessing it'll stay that way. It's a bit of a macho thing like a big spoiler on a car: you may not need it, but people recognise it as a sports car.

I personally wouldn't mind, though. Taking out the viewfinder and that silly built-in flash would reduce the size even more. I'm considering an external viewfinder anyway, not just because I hear FourThirds viewfinders are tunnel like. That can be solved to some extent with the ME-1 1.2x eyecup. But I think I'd miss having the surroundings in the viewfinder, like a rangefinder shows it.


Peter.
There has been a lot of talk on the olympus forums of the "EVIL" (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) camera, but personally I like real light.

As for the 'tunnel like' 4/3 viewfinder - it's true of all but the E3, which has one of the nicest and brightest viewfinders I've used (with a proportionately larger 'hump').
The E420 will be (I guess) the same as the E410 etc. Still, one should get this in perspective, it might be 'tunnel like' but it's in a completely different league from the nasty little holes you get in the likes of the Canon G9.
Mind you - I agree, rangefinders have taught me how nice it is to see what isn't going to be in the picture as well as what is.
 
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Player

Guest
I see the E-420, as Mitch does, as more of a competitor to the DP1 than the GRD2. It's probably worthwhile to sacrifice the smaller-dimensioned DP1 to gain the flexibility of an SLR, since both cameras aren't exactly svelte. The sensors are close enough to be moot. The GRD2 seems to be still unrivalled.
 

Lili

New member
Amin beat me to punch here :)
However that picture there does illustrate there is still considerable size difference between the DP-1 and E420.
Whether or not one is willing to sacrifice the added flexibility of the 420 for the far greater carryability of the DP-1 is very much a personal decision.
Given the MSRP of both cameras I suspect many will opt for the 420 25/2.8 combo, even if it doesn't cover the wide angle of the DP-1.
For me it is a kind of tough choice.
I adore my GRD first gen so would not find the fixed prime WA lens to be a onerous limitation at all.
The slower speed of the lens would be annoying but then most of my shots with the GRD are in bright daylight or high ISO and f4 seems to be my most used aperture so I might be nit picking here.
The live view of the 420, while a step up from the 410 does not seem so fast by its very nature in focus as the GRD or DP-1. However if one prefocuses or uses scale focus then the point is moot.
Question; does the Oly 25/2.5 actually have a focus scale?
If not how does one do scale focus?
 

Brian Mosley

New member
I've linked it from the post by Guenter Borgemeister in DPR

That's a nice illustration - I'd like to see it showing the DP1 with the lens properly extended and the OVF fitted. I realise you wouldn't keep it in a pocket that way, but it would still be a good comparison.

Kind Regards

Brian
 
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7ian7

Guest
Is the point really that it has to be as small as the DP1? Its build is way more sturdy — presumably — so it could live on a strap on one's shoulder, without fear of ruining it. It can shoot six RAW frames in two seconds. It will focus faster than any of our little cameras. It has "contrast detection" or whatever — it focusses differently in Live View, so even then it may still be quick as hell. The only thing I think might disappoint some of us, is that the Oly's "Super High Grade" fixed aperture zooms are not tiny, and also that they don't make a very wide prime. Lately I've been eyeing new dSLR systems — such as the D300 in combination with a used Nikon or new Voightlander pancake lens, which would be a way bigger investment (and probably worth it), but definitely not as small. I guess the question is what the files look like: are they only slightly "better" than our Ricohs or only slightly "worse" than higher end dSLRs. I read about dynamic range issues in an article about the top-of-the-line Oly dSLR (as well as the 410 and 510) on Luminous Lanscape.
 
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asabet

Guest
Most people have their own subjective size categories. For one person, a DP1 may compete in the same size category as the E-420. For others, a DP1 may compete in the GRD II size category. I'm in the latter camp. A DP1 is very similar in size to a GX100, as Björn Utpott has shown in this comparison . As for the size added by extending the lens, a consideration Brian and Jono have mentioned, that is not a significant factor for me. The OVF is a factor, but I will try to get by without it for now in order to keep the form as compact as possible.
 
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Lili

New member
Amin, Thanks for that very informative link, puts things in a very clear perspective!
As to this size issue, I carried my Hexar AF for long time and counted myslef lucky for such a portable camera.
The really small size and weight of the GRD is wonderful for all that it can do.
However, do *I* really need such a small camera for everyday carry?
Propbably not, but it really does help!
My only gripe with the DP-1 (in so far as I can have any, not having even seen one) are the fact the it does very much the same job as the GRD (albeit with a much bigger sensor) with which I am more than pleased ( liking very much the small sensor look ) for a bit more $$.
"If it ain't broke dont fix it"
However the E420 appeals a lot, I seldom took (its still at Pentax for repairs) my K100D anywhere due to size/weight/noise issues.
The little Oly does not have these (I have handled and shot with an E410 and the lightweight but very sharp 14-42 kit lens)
With the 25 it would very much rock, however I see it in light of my Pentax and hexar, not in comparison with the GRD/DP-1's of the world :)
 

jonoslack

Active member
Is the point really that it has to be as small as the DP1? Its build is way more sturdy — presumably — so it could live on a strap on one's shoulder, without fear of ruining it. It can shoot six RAW frames in two seconds. It will focus faster than any of our little cameras. It has "contrast detection" or whatever — it focusses differently in Live View, so even then it may still be quick as hell. The only thing I think might disappoint some of us, is that the Oly's "Super High Grade" fixed aperture zooms are not tiny, and also that they don't make a very wide prime. Lately I've been eyeing new dSLR systems — such as the D300 in combination with a used Nikon or new Voightlander pancake lens, which would be a way bigger investment (and probably worth it), but definitely not as small. I guess the question is what the files look like: are they only slightly "better" than our Ricohs or only slightly "worse" than higher end dSLRs. I read about dynamic range issues in an article about the top-of-the-line Oly dSLR (as well as the 410 and 510) on Luminous Lanscape.
I guess I can chip in here - having loads of both D200 / D2x / K14n / E3 / E510 images - for me the 4/3 images are less good at high ISO, but I think they always have better colour. But, for the sake of your argument, and in your words, 4/3 files are only slightly 'worse' than higher end dSLR files (although many would bicker about that). They are definitely much 'better' than ricoh files (please note the quote marks!). Which is what you'd expect, the sensors being so much larger.
 

nostatic

New member
Good timing on this discussion as I returned my Pentax K10d because I barely used it in HK and was getting better shots with the Leica. For whatever reason I still feel the "need" to have a dslr around. I'm starting to get more call for doing some shots at work (a sideline), and I love to shoot macro, which a good dslr and proper lens will do beautifully (when I get it right).

Sadly, part of the DSLR thing is just legitimacy. When I'm shooting for other people (ie work), if I pull out the Leica I'm perceived as being an "amateur" and treated as such. If I pull out a dslr (like when I shot our group photos with the D70), I am a "professional." While the proof should be in the pudding, often it isn't. Plus I do like the idea of being able to swap lenses if need be. Since I'm a digital media guy and not a "photographer" per se, it isn't that big of a deal but it is palpable.

So I was pretty much set to get a K20d because of the new sensor, and I do like the UI of the Pentax, plus the "vibe" of the brand. Plus I can buy older primes and use them. But 4/3s has always intrigued me.

Part of me just says to keep shooting with the Dlux3, and I will, but I think I need more than just one tool...if for no other reason than to inspire me to see differently.
 

Brian Mosley

New member
If you're happy with your Dlux3 (I'm happy with my LX1 for small sensor cam) then the E-420 would be ideal, considering the legendarily sharp Olympus ZD 50mm f2 macro lens would also be available.

It's worth mentioning that the shutter sound of the E-420 is likely to be an issue for anyone used to the near silent small sensor cams - you'll want to keep your Ricoh / consider the DP1 for those ultra low profile shots!

Kind Regards

Brian
 
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asabet

Guest
Amin, Thanks for that very informative link, puts things in a very clear perspective!
As to this size issue, I carried my Hexar AF for long time and counted myslef lucky for such a portable camera.
The really small size and weight of the GRD is wonderful for all that it can do.
However, do *I* really need such a small camera for everyday carry?
Propbably not, but it really does help!
My only gripe with the DP-1 (in so far as I can have any, not having even seen one) are the fact the it does very much the same job as the GRD (albeit with a much bigger sensor) with which I am more than pleased ( liking very much the small sensor look ) for a bit more $$.
"If it ain't broke dont fix it"
Lili, that makes very good sense!

However the E420 appeals a lot, I seldom took (its still at Pentax for repairs) my K100D anywhere due to size/weight/noise issues.
The little Oly does not have these (I have handled and shot with an E410 and the lightweight but very sharp 14-42 kit lens)
With the 25 it would very much rock, however I see it in light of my Pentax and hexar, not in comparison with the GRD/DP-1's of the world :)
That's how I see it as well. The E-420 as very much in the same size class as the Hexar AF/RF, Leica M, and Olympus OM series. I think it will be a big hit along with the ZD 25/2.8.
 

nostatic

New member
If you're happy with your Dlux3 (I'm happy with my LX1 for small sensor cam) then the E-420 would be ideal, considering the legendarily sharp Olympus ZD 50mm f2 macro lens would also be available.

It's worth mentioning that the shutter sound of the E-420 is likely to be an issue for anyone used to the near silent small sensor cams - you'll want to keep your Ricoh / consider the DP1 for those ultra low profile shots!

Kind Regards

Brian
I did compare the E510 with the K10d at the shop, and for me the viewfinder was night and day difference. The K10d has a beautful, big, bright viewfinder. The Oly was...um...not.

How does the live view implementation work? I am used to shooting without a viewfinder with the Dlux and wouldn't mind that in a dslr if need be. However with macro stuff I really need a decent view to check focus.

Obviously I should buy an Oly to have a 4/3 cam, my dlux for small sensor, and the Pentax for larger sensor ;)
 
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