GRD2 Walkabout at ISO 200

[Robert Campbell]

Mitch,
You could try a Google on MD, or look at amazon for his publishers. I got as far as Seiun-Sha which meant nothing at all to me, and their site needs a password etc to log in.

 

[Mitch Alland]

Concept and structure of the book project

Brian, Ian, Bertie, Jono and Helen:

Woke up late this morning and found lots of interesting comments, suggestions and questions. Thank you for taking the trouble to look at the book project and for devoting some thought to this. Let me try to deal with the questions.

First, the concept and structure of the book. I have often thought that a photograph works in the same way as a poem, that its form — in the sense of its overall shape, design or geometry — needs to be tied to the content and that the meaning emerges from the interplay of the two: so that a photograph 'is" the way a poem "is", with "form" in in the picture being at the base of it. Whatever story one is trying to tell, pictures work because of of their graphic form and fail because of its lack or deficiency, no matter how strong the concept or the story behind them. To make a photograph successful, you have to "feel the form" when making it so the viewer feels the form when looking at it, and the meaning emerges ultimately from this sense of form. This idea is discussed in the following interesting, long thread on LUF:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/29339-form-content-emotion-sean-reid-s.html

Now, when embarking on the project I started thinking about the structure for the book in terms of something that would work in the sense of a narrative poem: that is, there is a type of narrative in the book with emphasis based on repetition or cycles so that the repetition of themes in the structure — each of the four chapters starting with the fish and ending wigh a nude followed by a palm leaf — work like rhythm and rhyme in a poem. The general theme of the book — it's a dark vision — is the difficulty of life in a large, sprawling, chaotic, hot tropical city. While the Thais have charm and grace, life and human relations are are often harsh; and it's not the mindless "land of smiles" that the Tourism Authority of Thailand promotes. In my book no one smiles, although some girls laugh hysterically. In this difficult city the people face go through life with some grace, but the harshness is still there. I also though for a time of how one could present a tragic sense of life with photographs — and there is some attempt to do that.

While I cannot tell you the title for fear of someone else appropriating it, I have the following quote in the book, which follows the first photograph:

All this is life, must be life, since it is so much like a dream. JOSEPH CONRAD

There are four chapters. In the first version, which I printed out on A4 sheets cut to 21x25.5cm and bound in a hard, dark blue cover — which only cost US$6 to do here*— I had a title page for each of the chapters, which I subsequently eliminated because, as there were only 58 pictures in the first version, the title pages became too ponderous. Now that I have 158 pages, which will soon go to 170 pages, I'm considering putting a blank page between the chapters or reinserting the title pages. The title of the chapters were as follows — the titles are in English and Thai, but keep in mind that Thai uses Sanskrit and Pali for most complicated concepts or abstract words, the way English uses Latin and Greek, so that the titles are equivalent to using latinate words in English (except or chapter 2). Perhaps the titles can help to give you some sense of the idea of the book. They are:

1. Souvannaphoum/Golden Land
This was the ancient name for this region: when Louis XIV sent an embassy to Siam the envoys found that the country was richer than France and the people better off. This title is obviously ironic.

2. Emporium/Paragons
This chapter is on commercialism, and the name of the two most upscale shopping centres are "Emporium" and "Siam Paragon".

3. Mahavithayalai/University
Women university students are very striking here because they wear distinctive uniforms, with white blouses and black skirts, many being intentionally cut several sizes too small...enough said. Among men there is among a cult-like fascination with these uniforms, as with the "sailor" uniforms of highschool girls in Japan.

4. Mahanagar/Metropolis</i>
The idea behind this chapter is to try to show an integration with some grace of people into the life of this chaotic and difficult city.

I'm leaning towards not putting in the titles.

On Moriyama, while most of his books are about Japan, he has two recent books about Hawaii and Buenos Aieres and a third one about major cities throughout the world. I doubt that its fruitful to try his publishers, as he's too famous.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

 

[7ian7]

Mitch,

To my eye you're overstating the parallels between yours and Daido Moriyama's work.

In any case, what you're about to read will come off in my typical, unintentionally didactic written tone — sorry, I'm actually funny in person — but these are just my initial thoughts, and I reserve the right to reconsider, too. I'm sure many will feel I deserve a PHD in the obvious, but here it is. I'll be rooting for you and eager to see how you proceed whether or not you agree with anything I say.

What you've written is a good start, but it's not going to get you a deal. I'd like to see a proposal that spends less time using words to describe the feelings you intend to evoke in your reader with your photos, as those photos will be a part of any presentation, and will have to stand up on their own. The Conrad quote is nice, but that's it for ... ethereality.

Instead, emphasize the aspect of your description where you allude to a tangible structure, and where you specifically state what those chapters will address and accomplish. Aside from the fact that you waffle about your commitment to your proposed structure, that's the strong part.

I'm not saying you have to stick to the structure described here, I'm just saying that when you break down exactly how you see this book — literally, physically — it makes it way more tangible, more solid, more easy to imagine as an object, especially for someone who hasn't been walking around with your vision in his head for the past five years. Explaining it won't do. For 99 out of 100 agents or editors, the "object" part is everything. Even if all it ends up being is something for them to demand that you completely change, the process of clarifying your vision is still a crucial way for you to move forward, especially for a book that isn't as simple as a straight-ahead travel or journalistic subject.

Ok, the opening of your description sounds a bit like an imaginary interview with yourself. If the poem cycle metaphor is crucial to this book — and I think it is an interesting viewpoint and approach — you may want to commit to codifying that metaphor or similarity in some way, maybe even by incorporating it as a subheading — Poem Cycle 1, 2 or some such thing — beneath each chapter title. I'd have to see more of how this concept is implemented to know how I feel about it, but offhand, late at night as I think about it, it seems like a bold move, a little wacky, a little self-aggrandizing, but also pretty cool and romantic, especially in light of the dark perspective. But however you incorporate it, don't tell us this is like a poem, instruct us, in some physical way, that it is a poem.

Next, as much as this has to be a physical thing, I don't think your vision is being served by defining a number of images at this stage. I think it may be too early. 170 is a lot of pictures. As you begin to sharpen your tangible vision for this book, a number of things can happen, but hopefully what will happen is that you'll become way more disciplined in your edit, and remain open to cutting out anything that doesn't truly serve the book, or adding, but truly identifying any deficits in your undertaking that require and inspire going out and shooting more, with new vigor and clarity and freedom about your goals. If I'm correct, Robert Frank shot 600 rolls to come up with, The Americans, and some consider his success rate for that little book very high.

Ok two final things: I forgot to mention in one of my earlier posts that designers are the other heavy players in the photo book world. There are many established designers who can get a deal done, so approaching one you respect is a great idea. There's a strong argument that you shouldn't waste your time making a book dummy that doesn't do justice to your hopes for its design, and instead prepare a couple of four-inch thick boxes with so many prints in them that the authority of your accomplishment is so palpable as to be indisputable, even if all those pictures won't ever make it in to the book. That's the thing, at a certain point, the images should suggest a book to anyone who goes through them, even if what they envision is a completely different book than the one you intended to make. Who knows, there may be a designer or editor out there who inspires you to trust him enough to hand off the material, and let him go for it — design, sequencing, edit, everything. That's not a bad thing at all, if it's the right person. Many, many fantastic books have been made that way. (I know, it doesn't sound like the best option.)

And the title; if your title is really so strong that you're afraid it will be stolen by someone on the Ricoh user forum, than it's worth SHOUTING that damn title to anyone who will listen. Make it yours, make it synonymous with your work and your name — MITCHELL ALLAND/BLANK BLANK — and make every publisher's ears in Asia ring with it. Anyway, you'll have to tell publishers, and they're the ones most likely to steal it. If it's stolen, it wasn't meant to be. But in my experience, there's always some blurry figure in the shadows edging in on your creative territory — the process of a book making it's way to the light of day is so slowwww — but those paranoid fears don't usually end up amounting to anything.

If you focus on making a book proposal as specific to your vision as possible, and then reapply yourself to making the work live up to that vision, to making the work as strong as possible and then to getting it out there, ultimately nothing anyone else does will dilute the impact of your accomplishment. I can't wait to see it at Dashwood books, here in NYC, so keep going.

http://www.dashwoodbooks.com/

Ok. I'm delirious and should've stopped an hour ago. Keep us posted.

Good luck.

 

[nostatic]

this is all great info as I've been toying with converting some of my blog posts (the "free verse" stuff") into a mixed media piece. I could do it as a book including photos, or go DVD and include my music and motion stuff. So many possibilities...this is a great century to be alive and able to create in.

 

[Mitch Alland]

Ian, I see you were up at 2:30am writing this! Let me deal with some of your points.

1. I don't mean to be saying that my photography is like that of Moriyama; rather I think that he's an important influence.

2. I don't want the book to have any writing, as I believe in the photographs should speak for themselves; that's also why I am reluctant to have chapter titles as well. You mentioned Robert Franks's The Americans: I just had a look at my copy and he has not writing in it. The only thing that I might have is the Conrad quote which, although not essential, has sentimental meaning for me because I also was born in Poland and English was also the third language that I learned. Currently, I have the following afterword, under the title of Influences but that is not necessary either:

First, Don McCullin’s book, Open Skies, with its dark vision inspired me to learn darkroom printing and begin serious black and white photography. From Ralph Gibson I saw how a part can give a more powerful impression than the whole, especially if the underlying graphic forms are strong, as when shadows are pushed to black. And from Moriyama Daido—who felt that photography which is too exquisite becomes too self-confident to challenge its own meaning and loses reality—I learned to love the 35mm aesthetic, particularly the effect of large grain, deep, black shadows and heightened contrast. As usual, one is a midget standing on the shoulders of giants.

3. The explanation that I wrote above was prompted by whoever asked why each nude was followed by a plant: hence, I thought that I'd best explain the structure and the underlying concept of the book because it's so much harder for the viewer looking at a flickr slide show to grasp this than it is looking through a book.

4. The first version of the book that I printed and bound, and the next version that I'll do, is not meant as a layout, but only convenient way of presenting a sequence, which may in any case change. As for the metaphor of the poem, it's only a metaphor and the pictures are the pictures and the book is the book, which, again, must speak for itself — I think we are on the same wavelength here.

5. Nor do I mean at this stage to be defining the number of pictures in the book: I was only indicating that I have about a dozen pictures that I'll be adding; but there are some that I'll be deleting once I find the courage to cut them out. And I feel that the quality of the book will be improved if I delete some of the pictures.

6. On designers, as I said, I'm not making a dummy layout — only a sequence. But designers can be a two-edged sword; but that's like saying that the designer has to be good. I started to discuss this with a designer friend but gave up when her first suggestion was to bleed a third of a picture onto the next page...

7. Dashwood Books, here we go...

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

 

[7ian7]

Yes, 2:30 a.m., craziness.

Mitch, creating a succinct document that outlines your vision for this book is an important exercise, for you, for the success of the pursuit, and for your potential allies, whether or not those components are visible on the surface of the final product. As an unpublished photographer (for all intents and purposes), you will help your chances by delineating goals that tame the possible perception that you are attempting to publish a sprawling monograph.

Unless you publish this as a vanity-type thing, it will be a collaborative endeavor. Aligning yourself with a collaborator that will enrich the potential for your book is crucial, and it isn't so important that it be pain-free. However steadfast you are about certain principles of your vision, it will serve you to at least give the impression that you are truly inviting your chosen participants in to the process. A big way to do that — one I have ongoing difficulty with — is simply allowing a beat or two or three to pass, or a day, to let in ideas that initially seem anathema to your goals, y'know, "Very interesting; let me think about that for a while." The cool thing is, the right collaborator will really surprise you. Anyway, the mere suggestion of a bleed from one page to the next is not a deal-breaker.

Don't worry about an easy presentation. I think a box of prints signals to an editor or designer or publisher that the project is on some level still in play. Bound pictures may alienate many editors or publishers, who will on some level need to immerse themselves in your work in order to make it their own. Remember that great picture of Avedon in socks gingerly crouching between his prints laid out on the floor, as Alexi Brodovitch, in big shoes, stands with disregard for crimping the prints, as he suggests sequencing changes for an exhibition?

A box, a single page proposal which nails it. This could be compelling. Come to think of it, the owner of Dashwood, David Strettell, is smart as hell, ran a division of Magnum for years, is an expert on the Asian art-photography scene, knows everyone in that universe, and at least as of a year ago was planning on publishing a limited amount of titles under his own imprint. At the very least, he may be an excellent barometer for how others in that world may respond to what you're doing and where you want to go with it (which is not to say his opinion would be right or wrong, just indicative of what may lie ahead). And who knows, if he did get the right feeling about you and about the work, he could point you in any number of valuable directions. It's worth reading the about page on his website:

http://www.dashwoodbooks.com/about.cfm?cookie1=8900250.27382&email=&menu=about

Ok, I'm done with this for now, but looking forward to seeing how your project evolves.

And curious about the title.

 

[Robert Campbell]

Mitch,

A few further slightly random thoughts - and I'm not trying to :lecture: - nor repeat what Ian said.

I approached a publisher nearly three years ago with a proposal, to be told that the market had suffered a decline in that area and they weren't going to commission any further such works.

So, publishers are in the business of making money - for themselves, as much as their artists/authors. So you - or your agent - needs to know the market - you have already suggested Japan.

You could try self-publishing, but hawking the books around seems to be very hard work. And you could try 'vanity publishing' - but this is a very dubious path to follow, and generally not recommended. You could publish 'privately' and just give the books away, but I don't think this is what you have in mind.

You could approach a publisher directly - MD's for example; if they will publish his work, they might well be more rather than less interested in similar books. MD does seem to have several publishers, but these may be acting as 'agents' for oneanother. But by going directly, you as a newcomer will almost certainly loose a lot of control over the end product.

I think the only realistic option is an agent who knows the market, and can present your 'case' to a publisher - and can advise/help/criticise/critique your work - after all, they are the professionals, you are the artist.

For example, they might suggest 'testing' the market by publishing only one individual chapter, and if successful, then publish the rest - cheaper for the publisher, less risky for them.

They could also suggest an exhibition alongside the book, with pix available for purchase. This might give you some PP headaches - I'm no expert, but I expect the PP for book-size plates might differ from big enlargements. Don't however be seduced by posters - these pay very badly.

If this is starting to sound like 'the struggling artist versus grubby commerce', then remember that JK Rowling went through 17 or somesuch agents/publishers before getting accepted.

Your quote from Conrad reminded me of the last line of Lewis Carroll's acrostic poem at the end of Alice through the Looking Glass:

Life, what is it but a dream?

Good Luck, and keep us posted on progress!

 

[helenhill]

Yes indeed the Publishing market is struggling !
The most unfortunate reason ..... People are NOT reading books
( I also suspect the market has gotten flooded with boring & bad Literature /
nor would I recommend self publishing for Literature )
but visual or Non fiction seems to have a better chance.

There is NOTHING wrong with Self publishing
('Vanity Publishing' was the old term people would say who want to look down on you anyway)
As long as you can establish a market /clientele there s a good chance in achieving that ideal.
Certain Self Publishing companies are able to hook you up with Amazon or Barnes & Noble & secure you radio interviews (etc)
and possibly Blk&White is not so costly
The great thing is you can do a Limited Edition

I'm sure Mitch would be able to have a certain amount of Success
because I feel alot of his internet friends & viewers would support his endeavour.
So Just A Thought.... Be Daring.... Be Creative
Cheers ! Helen :grin:

 

[Mitch Alland]

The book project

Thanks again, Ian, Bertie and Helen.

1. I don't really want to get into self-publishing.

2. What I have to do now is to do a real, hard edit by adding about a dozen pictures that I want to include at this stage and deleting an undetermined number. The latter is the difficult part. The fact that I find it easy to add pictures may indicated that the project is nowhere near ready for publication, but somewhere there must be a point of diminishing returns in terms of adding new pictures.

3. Ian, I take your point about not presenting the pictures in a bound format: perhaps what I should do is to print them on A4 sheets and trim them paper to be square so that people don't have turn prints to see the ones in "portrait" orientation.

4. I've made good friends with a very famous photographer who lives in New York and Bangkok and will discuss the project with him when he gets back here, but there are obviously great differences in approach between someone who is as famous, probably more so, than Moriyama and someone who is unpublished; but I'll also see what he thinks about getting an agent or approaching publishers by myself and when to do it.

5. Bertie, quite a difference in tone between the Lewis Carrol and Joseph Conrad quote, as of course there is in the point of view of the two writers.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

 

[helenhill]

Mitch
One of my clients / the actress Stefanie Powers did a self publish book on 'Pilates" and did very well.
For Non Fiction work it is not looked DOWN upon and it gives you
more control over content,editing etc / Publishers can often turn a book into a Farce.....
Toodles, Helen

 

[Mitch Alland]

As this thread started with a presentation of pictures shot an afternoon earlier this week and as I've since edited some of them by cropping from 4:3 to 3:2 format or by changing some of the contrast, here is the full series of the latest version of these pictures:

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

 

[7ian7]

Helen, no shame whatsoever in self-publishing. And yes, publishers can be a nightmare.

That said, at its best, fine-art photography book printing is an art in itself, and one that is disappearing, not becoming more common. The "glory" of participating in that waning universe — working with the very printers in Italy, Japan and Singapore who invented and evolved and mastered these processes over hundreds of years — is still a major allure for many photographers, and I understand why.

At that level of printing, a small run, especially the first run, is still a major expense. In publishing, and in music, there are examples of independents who have done really well, but in general having the machinery in place to manufacture high-quality in a relatively cost-effective way, having the distribution channels lined up to deliver it, and having the long-standing relationships in place to effectively promote that product is a paradigm that — the system still being what it is — hasn't outlasted its usefulness ... yet.

It's true; very few of us will be so lucky as to have Amilcare Pizzi print or Steidl or Twelvetrees Press publish our monographs! And that's definitely no reason to give up. In the early 90s, mid-level quality illustrated books became way more common — maybe starting with the hybrid-sized Rolling Stone Press bio "Cobain" — and I think they can look fantastic, considering they often sell for $29 vs $150. Taschen is sort of a factory, but it has made a tremendous amount of great imagery accessible to a way broader social strata of interested consumers. That's cool. Personally, I end up spending more time with books that are less precious objects and easier to physically hold — like those great little black Photo Poche books from the 90s. I have some great big books on my shelf, but I don't open them up as often. If a photographer winds up with the option to work with a smaller, less-established imprint, it is worth giving that route serious consideration.

By the way, I wanted to add to Bertie's earlier post that within the context of illustrated books, it is important to view book packagers — Melcher, Calloway as examples — and designers — Sam Shahid, JP Suarez as examples — as "agents". Within this realm of publishing I've heard of very few literary agents, honestly none, who claim to have the qualifications, energy or desire to shepherd these unwieldy and mostly far less financially-rewarding projects forward, except under exceptional circumstances.

Finally, my sense is that when the potential for making the best possible images has been truly, fully exhausted, and a collection of work is truly ready to be published, and the person who created the work is truly ready to be published, that all the pieces will fall in to place.

Finally, finally (I promise): Mitch, if you can enlist the support of the established, famous photographer you know, that may be all you need. Nothing gets the attention of an agent, editor or publisher like an endorsement from one of his/her other clients or authors. Try to ask for something specific and do-able: an introduction. One introduction. There is no such thing as a favor. Celebrities don't — can't — save their struggling friends. But if they can do something tangible and specific for someone whose work they believe is ready, like make ONE ACTUAL INTRODUCTION, then chances are, they will. Good luck.

Now I must address whatever it is I am avoiding by spending so much time sharing my thoughts here. Sleep? Honestly, I like participating here — writing helps clarify, plus I contributing is rewarding. I apologize that my posts aren't shorter. Way shorter.

By for now.


Bye for now.

 

[helenhill]

7IAN7

Very True, Taschen & Rizzoli are Great!

 

[Robert Campbell]

Mitch,

Another set of thoughts - but I'm not really trying to teach you how to suck eggs, nor to extend this thread indefinitely.

Many books of pix have pictures only on the right-hand page as you look at an opened book. However, many designers seem to feel that people should 'look into the book' rather than looking off to the right - to the extent that pix are sometimes laterally reversed to achieve this - something to do with keeping your eyes on the page. You might, however, feel that there is more tension if someone looks out of the page.

Similarly, if there are pix on both left and right hand sides, designers seem to prefer people looking at oneanother; again, more tension or drama perhaps if they look out.

This might influence your editing.

 

[Mitch Alland]

Bertie, these design questions are interesting and can be seen in the varying designs of Ralph Gibson's early books, in which the size of the photo is changed on some pages creating another type of rhythm. Moriyama Daido's book "Shinjuku 19xx-20xx" published, by Codax/Hatje Cantz, has pictures on both sides with a few blank pages that appear either either the left or right side. But I'm still very far from design considerations, which I'll start thinking of when I fins a publisher: all I'm thinking about now is the sequence of the pictures.

And here is one of the pictures from the "final final" series above that I've reworked: originall I was happy with the blown out highlights as a way of showing the hot, bright contrast light of a typical Bangkok afternoon, but then brought the DNG file into Aperture to recover the highlights — that could not be done to this extent in either Lightroom or LightZone — and decided on the following interpretation, making the final contrast adjustments in LightZone. With B&W I find that if I look at a picture long enough I want to try another interpretation. This latst version does not shout quite as much as the previous one:

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

 

[Mitch Alland]

And I also couldn't resist reworking in Aperture 2 the fourth picture above to recover the blown highlights (and then did some burning in dodging in LightZone). Here is the revised version:

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/