Next Gen Alpha FF DSLR

[vyanush]

Regarding the AA Filter, that of the A900 is already very weak. The pixel density plays by itself the role of the AA filter so that it probably won't be needed at 30 ++ mp.

Edward, i'm in doubt for that. Did you see Lenstips M9 comparison with top-res DSLRs? A900 came behind 1Ds. It even loose to A100 in lppm by ~5% though has more densed sensor. IMHO its AA&CFA are realitively strong vs Canikon rivals and A100
But i trully believe Sony could try to drop AA at 30+MPs that would be very appealing body, at least for me myself...
^)

 

[douglasf13]

Lenstip's testing, like most online testing sites, should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[peterv]

Peterv, I have no real insight on comparisons between the S2 and A900. I was simply implying that 20% is likely too optimisitic of a difference.

Douglasf13, I'm just trying to understand what you're communicating here
So what you're saying is that 20% is likely too optimisitic of a difference in IQ between the €18.600 Leica S2 and the €1.750 Sony a850.
Now I agree price isn't everything, but I find it hard to comprehend this statement, especially when you say you have no real insight on comparisons between the S2 and A900.

Really, I'm quite happy with the IQ of my a900's and all my A-mount glass. Ever since Photokina '08 I have been closely following all the S2 news, and the more S2 info becomes public, the more I've come to realize what a bargain the a900 is.

Again, I think we should wait and see what comes out of Guy and Jack's test next month.

Kind Regards, Peter

 

[douglasf13]

Douglasf13, I'm just trying to understand what you're communicating here
So what you're saying is that 20% is likely too optimisitic of a difference in IQ between the €18.600 Leica S2 and the €1.750 Sony a850.
Now I agree price isn't everything, but I find it hard to comprehend this statement, especially when you say you have no real insight on comparisons between the S2 and A900.

Really, I'm quite happy with the IQ of my a900's and all my A-mount glass. Ever since Photokina '08 I have been closely following all the S2 news, and the more S2 info becomes public, the more I've come to realize what a bargain the a900 is.

Again, I think we should wait and see what comes out of Guy and Jack's test next month.

Kind Regards, Peter

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to characterize the S2 without any experience with the system. All that I'm saying is that I'd personally be surprised if the S2 is "20%" better than the A900, but that's all pretty nebulous anyways. I've certainly seen enough of the A900 vs. digital backs with a similar pixel count to say that the differences are there, but subtle. Regardless, I'd sure like to be in the position to test the S2 firsthand. It looks great to me so far. :thumbup:

 

[ptomsu]

I am almost sure the S2 will perform better WRT IQ than the A900 and also better like any next generation Axyz. Only issue is how big will that difference remain and will it be worth that big amount of additional money?

 

[edwardkaraa]

Edward, i'm in doubt for that. Did you see Lenstips M9 comparison with top-res DSLRs? A900 came behind 1Ds. It even loose to A100 in lppm by ~5% though has more densed sensor. IMHO its AA&CFA are realitively strong vs Canikon rivals and A100
But i trully believe Sony could try to drop AA at 30+MPs that would be very appealing body, at least for me myself...
^)

I just took a look at the M9 comparison, and indeed the A900 images seem to be the softest but very close to the 1Ds3 (which is also known to have a very weak AA filter like all 1Ds models) while the D3X seems to have the weakest AA filter. Very interesting.

 

[nautilus]

A900's files are more than big enough for Sony's customers. These don't want to handle and save too big files.
AA filters have a function and Sony like all other mass market DSLR manufacturers use these filters for a good reason.
Sony allready has the image of producing cameras with noise problem compared to Nikon and Canon.

Therefore Sony will not ignore all theses circumstances and will not build the camera that is described in this thread.
They will concentrate on cameras with better noise behaviour (-> A500), features with market demand (video) and competition fom micro FT and Samsung's APS mirrorless camera. That's much more important for them than adressing the demand of minorities.

 

[vyanush]

Another indication is from David Kilkpatrick:
http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2009/08/04/crop-or-cram-pixel-density-versus-the-big-view/,
note section at the bottom of A900 page that he found A700 softer than A900 and MUCH softer than A100 who was the sharpest to his eyes.
IMHO that sounds promissing for all of us... Sony clearly has a handicup over Canikon in possible AA-weakening in the next FF-MP-Monster

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

A900's files are more than big enough for Sony's customers. These don't want to handle and save too big files.

Well I'm a Sony customer and I can tell you that's completely wrong so far as I am concerned and I expect others feel the same. In fact its the high resolution / pixel count that attracted me to the A900 in the first place.

AA filters have a function and Sony like all other mass market DSLR manufacturers use these filters for a good reason.

Kodak produced the 760, 14nx and SLR/n and c without an AA filters, and the cameras were the better for it.

Sony allready has the image of producing cameras with noise problem compared to Nikon and Canon.

Therefore Sony will not ignore all theses circumstances and will not build the camera that is described in this thread.

They will concentrate on cameras with better noise behaviour (-> A500), features with market demand (video) and competition fom micro FT and Samsung's APS mirrorless camera. That's much more important for them than adressing the demand of minorities.

Well they might, but at the higher end, the demands of minorities become the demands of majorities. Budget DSLR users are different from more serious enthusiast and pro users. A removeable AA filter is an alternative to a fixed choice - as Kodak offered with the 760 and Mamiya offered with the ZD, for example.

 

[nautilus]

Quentin, I have no doubt that this forum has the highest BRPC (buying rate per capita) and it's users usually use the best of the best equipment. I think that quite a few that are here around would buy such a camera. And I understand the reasons that you've mentioned. But I think that this is not representative for the whole market.

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

Quentin, I have no doubt that this forum has the highest BRPC (buying rate per capita) and it's users usually use the best of the best equipment. I think that quite a few that are here around would buy such a camera. And I understand the reasons that you've mentioned. But I think that this is not representative for the whole market.

True, but what market are Sony targeting with their full frame high resolution dslr's? The point of high end dslr's is to service the more discerning and demanding end of the market. If that's Sony's objective, then my points hold true. If its not their objective, then I wonder what the point was of producing the A900 or a rumoured higher end model. For Sony to keep my custom, they need to meet pro end of the market demands because sure as heck, Canon and Nikon will and I have no real brand loyalty (I write as an ex Contax and Nikon user).

Quentin

 

[ptomsu]

True, but what market are Sony targeting with their full frame high resolution dslr's? The point of high end dslr's is to service the more discerning and demanding end of the market. If that's Sony's objective, then my points hold true. If its not their objective, then I wonder what the point was of producing the A900 or a rumoured higher end model. For Sony to keep my custom, they need to meet pro end of the market demands because sure as heck, Canon and Nikon will and I have no real brand loyalty (I write as an ex Contax and Nikon user).

Quentin

Could not agree more! Sony entered this game with a clear intent (part from others) to serve the high end pro market. So the A900 should just be their first step in that direction and I am waiting to see more high end.

I also do no longer have any brand loyalty as ex Nikon, Contax, Canon and Olympus user. Take the system which suits me best at the given time!

 

[nautilus]

True, but what market are Sony targeting with their full frame high resolution dslr's?
...
Quentin

I think that up to now they are walking on the line that separates the enthusiastic amateurs and semi-professionals from the full professional customers.
This is exactly the positioning that Minolta decided for for many years. Very good lenses, one high-end camera that was competitive with Nikon and Canon top cameras in many respects but not all, let me call it a lighthouse camera for the system. But without the professional services and broad range of a professional system.
Konica Minolta including the former Minolta division was in the opinion that their customers (with exceptions of course) would not buy a camera above €2000. At least that was what they told me and indeed there never existed a higher camera. Probably due to the customer base that was developped by Minolta consisting mainly of amateur photographers.

At the time Sony launched the A900 they hesitated to call the A900 a true professional camera. That has changed a bit. Now they clearly call the A900 and A850 professional cameras on their websites. This could be a hint that the Minolta and KonicaMinolta positioning will be left by Sony. I wish it for you and other more demanding customers.
When? Market share could be an indicator. Sony started with around 10% which was exactly the share that KonicaMinolta had when they left the market.
Sony customers were KonicaMinolta and Minolta customers. The last numbers I heared of were around 13% worldwide but these were 2008 data. I think that 20% or 25% could be the critical mass for entering the professional market more seriously. We expect more Zeiss lenses and a huge expensive tele lens that were displayed as demonstrators 2 or 3 years ago. These lenses make sense to be launched together with new cameras.

These lenses were hold back.
Why? Did they rework these lenses to be usable on new mirrorless camera designs with or without video? Or should they be launched as a full professional package together with a new pro camera?
We will get the answer next year I think.
There are rumours that Samsung will have two mirrorless cameras, on of them being fullframe. Maybe that's Sony's next camera as well.

 

[ptomsu]

Why? Did they rework these lenses to be usable on new mirrorless camera designs with or without video? Or should they be launched as a full professional package together with a new pro camera?
We will get the answer next year I think.
There are rumours that Samsung will have two mirrorless cameras, on of them being fullframe. Maybe that's Sony's next camera as well.

Would make sense from this view, although I beg that they always will offer a high end (professional) camera with mirror - maybe I am old fashioned, but I really do not want to get into that EVF game when doing high end photography.

I hope for more high end lenses, especially from Zeiss, like a 2.8/300 or even better a 2.8/120-300 like the one Sigma offers. And maybe also something in the range of a 200-400 like what is available for Nikon for years already. These would be the lenses I would buy more or less instantly, also for a higher price tag.

Now again coming back to the sensor - most important thing here is that it comes without any AA filter - PLEASE!

 

[nautilus]

My biggest fear is that interesting new cameras work together with my lenses only via an adpater. One of my lenses has SSM, all the others mechanical coupled AF. I don't want to hear how they will rattle, get slow, backfocus due to such an adapter. Not to speak of changing lenses and adpters and that every lens gets physical longer (lens'+adpaters' lenght I mean).

No AA filter means clearer and sharper pictures together with a CCD sensor. Was there ever a CMOS sensor without AA in the camera world? Will Sony sacrifice the benfits of the CMOS sensor in a DSLR like better noise behaviour? Will customers accept moiree in their pictures?

 

[edwardkaraa]

The way things are quickly developing, I can see Sony introducing their first full-frame evil camera soon. From there, the remaining days or years of Dslr are numbered. It was really weird that Sony coming so strong in the market would suddenly stop introducing new lenses for Dslr, does not announce an upgrade for the A700, even Zeiss must have been busy designing lenses for the new evil format. Now it is all starting to make more sense.

 

[edwardkaraa]

This is actually my dear old Contax G2 coming to life again. With a few select Zeiss primes, 100% EVF with no parallax, the possibility to AF anywhere in the frame...etc.

 

[ptomsu]

Sony EVIL camera - at somyalpharumors ....

http://sonyalpharumors.com/sr2-sony-evil-ccameras/

If this becomes true and I have no doubt, and the EVFs are useable (enough pixel count and fast) then the MF world will be really shaking!

Also it means you need new lenses for these beasts in order to come to maximum performance. So maybe it is wise to control investment in existing Alpha system.

 

[ptomsu]

And another hint on possible Sony EVIL

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...geable_camera_system_news_288858.html?aff=rss

 

[fotografz]

34.8 meg ... that's okay. :sleep006: Pixel pitch will be getting pretty tiny here compared to a 39 meg MFD. Personally couldn't care less about cramming even more pixels into a 35mm frame.

Here's the useful rumored news IMO:

1/12,000 top shutter speed !!!!!!!!!!!!!! (no more flashing shutter speeds with the fast lenses outside)

High speed flash sync @ 1/1,000 (Super useful for large aperture fill flash outdoors)

Live View. (if like the Canon or Nikon versions ... WaHoo!)

Tilting LCD

Eye start AF (remains to be seen how well it works ... seemed okay in lesser Alpha cameras)

Dual CF card slots. (doesn't say if it's dual simultaneous capture, but I'm going to assume so until informed differently ... this is a BIG deal for me).

Anti-dust function

HVL-F64AM flash is mentioned

Hyper-focal AF option

5 year warranty on parts and Labor ... Gold pro services mentioned.

Weak:

Top ISO 3200 ... which will be okay if ISO 1250 or 1600 is good.

No mention I could find if it's 12, 14 or 16 bit.

3 FPS max burst speed. This triggers worries about buffer speed in real world shooting.

Really not interested in learning yet another Post program like DXO

-Marc