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A900 Newbie Flash Question

I did look at the Metz, downloaded the user manuals for the 54 MZ-41 and the Metz 58, and found no indication that either would work in ratio mode(or at all for that matter) with the newer Sony control protocols. I researched this fairly extensively before buying, and the new control protocols have been modified to reduce "lazy-eye" issues. With the price of the Sony and Metz units being so close I just went with the Sony. As far as I can tell the ratio adjustments available with the Metz(ratio between bounce &fill) are very limited compared to what can be achieved with a pair of F58s. I also wanted to be able to control two flashes off-camera with an F20(choosing P-TTL or manual as needed) and I found no info at all to indicate whether this was possible with the Metz units. I also felt that having a larger reflector for the fill light would be less harsh. For situations where I would only want a single flash I have had decent results in the past with a bounce card so I'll try that too. The shot below was taken with the F58 and built-in bounce card -- not too bad, really:



The problem with bounce cards is you get what you get -- changing the ratio is more involved than just pushing a few buttons.
 

gsking

New member
Dave,

So the German-translated manuals scared you off. Figures....it does that to most people. ;)

Good point...on the A900, you get many more features with the 58 than with the Metz(es). I'm limited to the A700, so I lose little. And I do limited wireless these days. Metz has no ratio modes, but it does work cross-platform, and plays nice with studio lights as a hairlight. And it will do wireless control (using its own thyristor) even on my Mamiyas.

Yeah, that's the result I get with my 58. I prefer a stronger fill, but I think my tastes lean to the "harsh highlight" end of the range. Or so my wife says...

I have the slip-on diffuser mittens which seemed to work well...I should try them some more. I also got some of the big inflatable ones...but they seem too unwieldy.

Greg
 

fotografz

Well-known member
George, to touch on your original inquiry a bit more ... or rather a lot more ;)

I primarily use a 35mm DSLR to shoot weddings (since you mentioned weddings). In that pursuit, I've used just about every on-camera and off-camera flash system out there. My current set-up is the A900 and shoe mounted 58 flash. My off-camera kit is totally different and uses bare-bulb flashes.

Weddings represent one of the most demanding uses of flash I can think of because you can face just about every ambient lighting situation there is at any given time. (See attached samples).

I personally do not know any wedding photographer that does not modify on-camera flash, except perhaps in one circumstance: longer lenses at distance.

The reason I carry a number of different modifiers is for use in those widely variable ambient conditions. They are easy to carry because most fold flat. None of them are expensive considering what they add to the camera/flash capabilities.

Almost all of the flash modifiers use a combination of bounce while throwing light forward ... different ones do that in different degrees. The reason for forward light is that just ceiling bounce alone can lead to downward shadows in eye sockets, and uneven light spread top to bottom.

When using these types of dual direction modifiers, a straight on secondary forward flash becomes redundant, unless one wants specular light on the subject ... which for closer shots, no woman on planet Earth is in favor of :LOL:

The primary camera technique for using on-camera flash in darker ambient conditions is called "dragging the shutter". The camera is set to Manual and a slower shutter speed plus the fastest aperture possible based on DOF needs is used to open up the background ... while the flash is set to TTL to light the foreground subject and use the short duration of flash exposure to freeze the action (up to a point). Setting 1/50th shutter verses 1/200th shutter has no effect on the foreground exposure because the flash duration is much faster than any flash sync speed on the camera ... but 1/200th shutter will most likely turn the ambient background into a wall of black.

What is the objective of this? For me it is simply to balance the light between the ambient and artificial "assist" to keep the tonal values with-in the camera's dynamic range ... while trying to make it look as if flash wasn't used as much as possible ... even when using straight-on, shoe mount flash. With weddings you are dealing with extremes in many images and the objective is to hold detail in brights and darks ... especially dress detail (like the sample below of the B&G dancing and the Bride's elaborate Spanish wedding dress). Off-camera directional flash is a whole other subject.

Here are some samples of varying ambient conditions that dictated manditory on-camera flash with different modifiers or camera/flash settings. A couple of back-lit examples using balanced fill (Bride at mirror & Bride/little girl in window), some where the ambient was almost none existent (kiss @ fountain shot after sunset in November, Flower Girl reading in church, Guy "admiring" beauties at bar) ... to some ambient, but not helpful as to its direction (B&G dancing, Kids posing in chairs).

In short, flash technique and modifiers have become more important than rigging as digital cameras have become more capable of ISOs in the range of 500 to 1000 ... which with good lighting the A900 is quite able to do well. To repeat, off-camera flash is a whole other subject.

Hope this helps a little.

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
BTW, in addition to the diffuser that comes with the flash (which is almost useless, and oddly seem to cause underexposure), here are some of the flash modifiers I carry with me to a wedding ... most fit in the front pocket of my bag except the Gary Fong one which I leave on the 58 flash in its folded configuration (I also carry the Fong white-translucent dome that snaps into the front of this LSC 01 for low ceilings and directly pointing at the subject). There are two types of Mila Grid diffusers (BG2 and PG2), one allows more upward light for bounce when the ceiling is higher.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/483216-REG/MilaGrid_BG2_BounceGrid_II_Flash_Diffuser.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/483218-REG/MilaGrid_PG2_PowerGrid_Flash_Diffuser.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...01_Lightsphere_Collapsible_Inverted_Dome.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/219657-REG/Metz_MZ_55423_54_23_Bounce_Card.html

Here are some other modifiers of interest:

This Demb product solves the issues of a straight bounce card by providing tilt capability for different situations:

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/

Then there are the Better Bounce solutions ... which is an interesting read (I've not tried these products myself yet):

http://www.abetterbouncecard.com/

http://www.presslite.com/flashdiffuser.php

These are so simple you could easily make your own.


-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Sorry, I forgot to include an illustration of flash freezing action even with a slower shutter speed (i.e., Dragging the Shutter).

This was shot at 1/30th shutter which opened up the background in low light, while the short flash duration froze the action.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Don't know if I can help, I'm not a Sony shooter but I am a wedding shooter.

The examples that Dave has shown was pretty much what I used to get in the past when shooting with metz bounced and the second 'fill' flash light on the front. Not that great which is why I quickly switched to the Lightsphere.

The Lightsphere gives a very nice wrap around light and an almost indiscernible shadow if at all when working in typical 'house' sized rooms where the light can bounce off lots of surfaces. It still gives a softer and more wrapped light even in big halls when used with the 'lid' which I never ever took off. Basically you are both quadrupling the flash surface, putting the light even higher up and also bouncing off any available surface including the guy standing next to you or the curtain behind you, etc.

I stopped using it for a couple of reasons. Firstly the light is a bit too 'nice'. Now that is going to sound strange! I did however want a more moody and more importantly more directional type of flash lighting for a mix between natural and off camera look, but with the fill coming from on camera. What I mean is that I can bounce at a 45 degree angle but still have the fill from on camera, a type of lighting I use a lot for wedding work including outdoors (when I use two lights).

Using the Demb bounce card I get as much light thrown forward as I choose, I can adjust how much exactly from very light fill to all the light going forward (for outdoors), I lose far less light than with the lightsphere, can create directional light, the bounce card is hugely portable rather than the large and not very bendy lightsphere, oh and it doesn't screw up your flash head after a few months like the lightsphere used to. Makes the whole rig much less unwieldy too.

So far so good. But now for the problem I ran into. You cannot rotate the flash head to either the right OR left with fill without also rotating the bounce card. Try it in vertical and you have to rotate the camera! Not the kind of issue you want to deal with mid wedding. Try it and you will see what I mean.

Enter the Demb Bracket. Now I hate brackets. With a passion. However this bracket is different. Firstly you can swivel the flash without having to press any buttons, just push and it slides into place. Secondly you can position the flash at any and every angle you could possibly want until it either hits the camera or your fingers. That means that in a room where I want to choose which surface to bounce the flash off, I can choose, in either horizonal or vertical, any angle I want. I don't know of any other bracket/card combo in existence that can do this and certainly none which are so light, so easy to use and just so useable in the field.

You do lose certain things, you have to cope with flash off camera cords (which I hate), a bracket (I still hate having to use one), losing the vertical shutter release (I miss that a lot, I find it far more steady), it's not nice at all to use on tripod, etc.

However, at least with the canon and nikon flash systems, I can bounce my flash wherever I want and with as little or as much fill as I want, with the minimum amount of hassle using the Demb Bracket and Demb bounce Card for a 'non on camera flash' look to the lighting.

I know that most of this might have gone over the heads of all those not really really good at envisioning what I'm talking about but it really is an interesting and real world way to have direct flash control for directional lighting without being hamstrung in a fast moving and time limited environment without using a two flash system.

Here is a photo from my first wedding using the bracket/bouncecard system, the flash is bounced off the wall/ceiling to the left while the card gives a hint of fill. You can see a bit of shadow but it's far less of a 'flash look', more natural because it's not coming from the on camera axis.


If you don't need directional flash and just want a softer and more pleasing but still pretty controllable flash solution, I can't recommend the Demb Flash Card enough and that goes for the owner too whom I've had long email conversations with and who is more than helpful. The price is very good too.
 
Last edited:

fotografz

Well-known member
Don't know if I can help, I'm not a Sony shooter but I am a wedding shooter.

The examples that Dave has shown was pretty much what I used to get in the past when shooting with metz bounced and the second 'fill' flash light on the front. Not that great which is why I quickly switched to the Lightsphere.

The Lightsphere gives a very nice wrap around light and an almost indiscernible shadow if at all when working in typical 'house' sized rooms where the light can bounce off lots of surfaces. It still gives a softer and more wrapped light even in big halls when used with the 'lid' which I never ever took off. Basically you are both quadrupling the flash surface, putting the light even higher up and also bouncing off any available surface including the guy standing next to you or the curtain behind you, etc.

I stopped using it for a couple of reasons. Firstly the light is a bit too 'nice'. Now that is going to sound strange! I did however want a more moody and more importantly more directional type of flash lighting for a mix between natural and off camera look, but with the fill coming from on camera. What I mean is that I can bounce at a 45 degree angle but still have the fill from on camera, a type of lighting I use a lot for wedding work including outdoors (when I use two lights).

Using the Demb bounce card I get as much light thrown forward as I choose, I can adjust how much exactly from very light fill to all the light going forward (for outdoors), I lose far less light than with the lightsphere, can create directional light, the bounce card is hugely portable rather than the large and not very bendy lightsphere, oh and it doesn't screw up your flash head after a few months like the lightsphere used to. Makes the whole rig much less unwieldy too.

So far so good. But now for the problem I ran into. You cannot rotate the flash head to either the right OR left with fill without also rotating the bounce card. Try it in vertical and you have to rotate the camera! Not the kind of issue you want to deal with mid wedding. Try it and you will see what I mean.

Enter the Demb Bracket. Now I hate brackets. With a passion. However this bracket is different. Firstly you can swivel the flash without having to press any buttons, just push and it slides into place. Secondly you can position the flash at any and every angle you could possibly want until it either hits the camera or your fingers. That means that in a room where I want to choose which surface to bounce the flash off, I can choose, in either horizonal or vertical, any angle I want. I don't know of any other bracket/card combo in existence that can do this and certainly none which are so light, so easy to use and just so useable in the field.

You do lose certain things, you have to cope with flash off camera cords (which I hate), a bracket (I still hate having to use one), losing the vertical shutter release (I miss that a lot, I find it far more steady), it's not nice at all to use on tripod, etc.

However, at least with the canon and nikon flash systems, I can bounce my flash wherever I want and with as little or as much fill as I want, with the minimum amount of hassle using the Demb Bracket and Demb bounce Card for a 'non on camera flash' look to the lighting.

I know that most of this might have gone over the heads of all those not really really good at envisioning what I'm talking about but it really is an interesting and real world way to have direct flash control for directional lighting without being hamstrung in a fast moving and time limited environment without using a two flash system.

Here is a photo from my first wedding using the bracket/bouncecard system, the flash is bounced off the wall/ceiling to the left while the card gives a hint of fill. You can see a bit of shadow but it's far less of a 'flash look', more natural because it's not coming from the on camera axis.


If you don't need directional flash and just want a softer and more pleasing but still pretty controllable flash solution, I can't recommend the Demb Flash Card enough and that goes for the owner too whom I've had long email conversations with and who is more than helpful. The price is very good too.
Ben, if I understand your concern correctly ... rotating the Sony 58 flash isn't the same as regular flashes ... it is always in the upright position.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
I know the sony flash is different in how the head rotates though I've never seen how in practice, do you know of any diagrams or a video that can demonstrate it to me?

Many thanks!
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
OK, found out how the Sony flash works. Yup it would solve the problem in horizontal mode. You can bounce either right or left without having to change the orientation of the bounce card.

Wouldn't work for vertical though unless you had a bounce card with a swivel from side to side as well as forwards and backwards. Doesn't exist as far as I know but if I know Joe Demb, he'd be interested in making it :D

On an aside I'm seriously thinking of trying these new NiZN batteries to do away with the battery pack I have on my belt. I don't know if you saw my thread on the lighting forum about using speedlights instead of strobes and how to build a reflector for them but I really am trying to 'dumb down' the amount of equipment and faff I need to do sophisticated lighting at weddings.
 
Marc, thanks for the very informative posts. Those grid diffusers look like just the ticket -- though I see the potential for side-shadows in vertical orientation. I don't see evidence of that in your shots though. Is it that the fill is diffused enough to soften the shadows, or is there something else going on? Are these examples of "opposite the prevailing ambient" technique that you mention above?

Also, the product shots of the MilaGrid units appear to show the strap and the internal diffusers as part of the product. Is that so, or do the pieces have to be ordered individually?

Ben, interesting bracket -- with the F58 you would have to tape over the slot in the shoe if you want to use HSS, I think. Not sure it works if the flash thinks it's off-camera. The F58 isn't particularly light -- is the bracket up to the demands of using a heavy flash unit?

Greg, the Geman-translated manuals are no issue... Over the past 6 years I have spent a great deal of time deciphering 30 year-old German-translated repair manuals for the German car I've been restoring so I'm used to it. :D

I have to say, the built-in bounce card on the F58 is a lot better than nothing but I'm going to look into the MilaGrid diffusers.
 
BTW, for future readers of this thread, and for Ben in case you missed something, here are some vids that illustrate how the F58 articulates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKn5Bs1mNaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ4y61ur8vQ

Actually in vertical mode you can bounce to either side, it just depends on whether you rotate the camera clockwise or counterclockwise from horizontal. It's very quick to do this in either direction. The only thing you can't do, the issue solved with the Demba bracket, is positioning the fill over the lens.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Actually in vertical mode you can bounce to either side, it just depends on whether you rotate the camera clockwise or counterclockwise from horizontal. It's very quick to do this in either direction. The only thing you can't do, the issue solved with the Demba bracket, is positioning the fill over the lens.
Going to watch the videos now.

Yeah, I call that turning the camera upside down, same thing with the canon, I just can't shoot both ways depending on which way I want to bounce the flash. Just too awkward.

That said I do like the Sony implementation for versatility though having the entire control panel on a 45 degree might be weird for a bit :D

Keeping the fill over the lens isn't really important, I don't want the fill that on axis to be honest, the more 'off' it is the less 'on camera' it looks.

I would say that if you stick to bounce with the built in bounce card (much better on the Sony than with CaNikon as you don't lose the bounce card when going vertical) you won't go very wrong. If you're not shooting stuff like weddings, to be honest, it should be more than enough for most circumstances. Where it might let you down is with distant subjects, very high ceilings and of course outdoors when you want the lightsource bigger than just straight flash.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Now if only in that last picture Marc, the flash could rotate further towards the camera grip it would be perfect, bounce off any wall in any direction whether in Landscape or Portrait!
 
Marc, any response to my question above about what's included with the MilaGrid units?

Ben, way back when I first bought the 5200i flash(actually the white one pictured above is the second one I bought) I tried taping cards to it but found that it often wasn't enough; that's what prompted me to try the two-flash setup. The MilaGrid stuff may be just the ticket, but I still want to play with a dual-F58 setup cobbled up out of HW store stuff or stuff from my metal scraps, so I can decide whether to go further. Marc made a good point about specular highlights -- I'll have to see if the fill can be ratcheted back enough to mitigate that.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, any response to my question above about what's included with the MilaGrid units?

Ben, way back when I first bought the 5200i flash(actually the white one pictured above is the second one I bought) I tried taping cards to it but found that it often wasn't enough; that's what prompted me to try the two-flash setup. The MilaGrid stuff may be just the ticket, but I still want to play with a dual-F58 setup cobbled up out of HW store stuff or stuff from my metal scraps, so I can decide whether to go further. Marc made a good point about specular highlights -- I'll have to see if the fill can be ratcheted back enough to mitigate that.
Mine came with the white bounce card. I'd make sure it's included. B&H usually lists what is included.

-Marc
 

goonygoogoo

New member
Marc,

Exceptional examples. Thanks. I shoot with flash much as you've described in the great write up. I will definitely be picking up one of those MilaGrids. I think that will help make the 58 flash work better for me for portrait shots.

George
 
Marc, I want to thank you for the MilaGrid recommendation. I had a chance to really put it to the test last Weds. when I was photographing an ERT drill at work. It was my intent on some of these to let the background go dark, to convey the fact that we were in a building with no power except for emergency lighting. The results were worth every penny and more. I performed some initial experiments with gels on the flash but every time I turned a corner the lighting was different, between emergency lighting, window light, and the florescent light in the conference room where the moulage was taking place I decided to do without gels since it just wasn't that critical for the intended purpose.

Anyway, they work great and I would recommend them to anyone. :thumbs:

135 1.8 @f/5, 1/125, ISO 320:



135 1.8 @f/5, 1/125, ISO 320:



135 1.8 @f/7.1, 1/125, ISO 800:



20 2.8 @f/5.6, 1/60, ISO 800 (Note: This room was completely dark except for the light coming in the doorway.)



20 2.8 @f/9, 1/60, ISO 1600



20 2.8 @f/9, 1/60, ISO 1600



80-200 APO @200mm, f/7.1, 1/125, ISO 800

 
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