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Recommendations sought from Sony [i]cognoscenti[/i]

kit laughlin

Subscriber Member
Hello all,

I presently shoot a D3s/D2x combination. My main paid work is architecture (interiors/exteriors) and heavy machinery on locations on farms, in forests, and industrial engines for John Deere. Some studio work for brochures for same, and on-location in-working-environments portraits. AF is the mainstay of the on-location work.

I use the 14–24.2.8, 24/3.5 PC-E, 24–70/2.8, 60/2.8G micro, 105/2.8 VR micro, 80–200/2.8 AF-S, extenders, and a number of primes. I have a bunch of SB-600s, and a SB-800. I rent lights for studio work, or use an Elinchrom three-head system.

I have pro video gear, so do not need video capabilities in my stills cameras.

I am thinking of changing systems. To begin, an A-900 body, and 16–35, 24–70, and 85/1.4 lenses. Then there's the question of whether the 70–200/2.8 Apo or the 70–400 Apo is the lens to get (the reports I have seen of the 70–400 are glowing re. sharpness), or whether to go with the 70–200 Apo plus the 1.4 extender; that's long enough for my needs—and I would prefer the wider aperture of this lens.

I know the 135/1.8 is the lens that excites everyone, but if I were to get that, I would need something longer—so some kind of idea of how the 70-200/2.8 Apo compares at a similar focal length would help that decision. In the sometimes very restricted working areas we have on these locations, sneaker zoom (and even changing lenses) can be really restricted, so I would be inclined towards the zoom simply for this reason, if it's even only close to the same IQ.

The pluses for me of the A900 over the D3s are simply the extra MP, and the Zeiss zooms—even though the current Nikkors I own are are very very good. As well, I really like the in-body stabilisation; for me, this offsets the high-ISO capability of the D3s considerably and I like the non-grip form factor.

I have written about the usefulness of Nikon's Live View elsewhere, but others have mentioned that the finder is good enough to see in-out of focus for tilt, and because the 14–24 is so good, I find I use this in preference most of the time anyway, with careful camera placement. The additional pixels of the A900 make this (fine tuning perspective correction in PS) even easier.

The Mirex plus one of the Mamiya or Hasselblad lenses might do this work, although finding a lens wide enough might not be easy. This aspect is the only real unanswered question for me presently. For the occasional table-top work, the Mirex seems very usable.

I could simply get a D3x—but paying a stiff premium over the Sony for the same sensor, more or less, just does not sit well. I like the smaller/lighter form factor of the Sony, I don't need a vertical grip, and the sensor cleaning is a necessity on these sometimes very dusty locations—and the number one reason why I did not get the D3x in the first place when I upgraded from a brace of D700 bodies.

All suggestions (for/against/orthogonal!) gratefully received.
 

Jan Brittenson

Senior Subscriber Member
I'm receiving an APO 70-200/2.8 on Friday and will post some quick tests on the A850 shortly after.

An A900 and a good lens lineup can fit in the budget of the D3X alone...
 

edwardkaraa

New member
If I was in your situation, Kit, I would definitely not get into the Sony system. You have already a heavy investment in excellent Nikon glass, and the the price of body/lens combination you plan to buy can easily get you a D3X, which in my opinion, is a high end A900, well, sort of :D

If it's to use the Zeiss AF glass then, can't argue with that. The ZA lenses do have an exceptional look, even though, in pure resolution terms, your Nikon glass may be on par, or even better (the 14-24 for instance).

As for your question about the lenses, if you prefer using zooms, I would get the 70-200 with a 1.4X instead of the 70-400. I didn't use any myself, but from the photos I have seen from both, I believe the 70-200 to be the better lens and of course it has the luminosity advantage especially at the long end.
 

kit laughlin

Subscriber Member
Thanks Edward; until I saw this from you, I had not considered selling the D3s and keeping all the glass—if I did, a used D3x would be possible. The only fly in the ointment is no sensor cleaning. Not an absolute deal killer, though. More thinking.
 

edwardkaraa

New member
One more thing regarding the sensor cleaning. I've had the A900 for 2 years now, and I have never cleaned the sensor. I do use a blower bulb occasionally but have never touched the sensor. Even after 2 years it is still cleaner than any of my previous cameras after wet cleaning. However, the secret is not in the sensor vibration but rather in the treatment of the glass cover and its distance from the actual sensor which many believe it to be further away from the sensor.
 

kit laughlin

Subscriber Member
More useful info; thank you. I found the D3 to be a dust magnet, and why I went to the D700 bodies, then to the D3s.

I PMed a member this evening about possibly swapping his D3x for my D3s plus cash; let's see what transpires.
 

kit laughlin

Subscriber Member
Douglas and Bill, honestly I agree with you; and on location most (tho' not all) if the work is hand-held—so Iliah's points may well be valid. Having a faster shutter speed available is very useful, I'd be the first to admit, especially when the light starts failing.

Then there's the client's perception about 12 vs. 24MP!
 

dhsimmonds

New member
Hi Kit

No one has mentioned the Sony's colour rendition versus Nikon which most agree is more pleasing and makes for less work in RAW conversion!

The ZA16-35 is a stunning lens and my favourite for architectural subjects. No obvious vignetting either. The large and bright viewfinder on the A900 makes it easy to check for convergence etc IMHO.

I also have the G70-400 lens for natural history work and confirm that it is a very sharp lens even when used handheld. The hood is a bit plasticky though but so far mine has not cracked or broken. It has a little slot with a sliding cover for rotating polarising filters.

However my favourite "long" lens for shooting wildlife is a Tamron 200-500. Every bit as sharp as the Sony 70-400 with a nice colour rendition too. It is a massive lens though!

Just my two penny's worth!

Good luck with whatever you chose.
 

peterb

Member
Hi Kit,

For architectural work I can certainly see your desire to find an affordable system that would offer the megapixelage (if there is such a word) you want beyond what the D3x that you own has. And the Sony certainly fills the bill. The A900 is an amazing cam (along with its equally potent and even MORE affordable little sibling, the A850--honestly the differences are negligible--although I suppose 98% coverage vs 100% MAY be a deal breaker in precision architectural photography and studio work).

While I'm a big fan of Sony and its utterly superb (albeit limited) lens lineup (particularly the Zeiss and tele "G" lenses) I'm not sure how much better they are than the optics you already own. I mean we're SERIOUSLY splitting hairs here. The 14-24mm f2.8 from what I've read (and seen) is out-and-out stellar and I'm not sure Sony's two Zeiss counterparts (the Zeiss 16-35mm f2.8 and Zeiss 24mm f2) can top that (they are a LOT lighter, that's for sure). For architectural work I'd think the 14-24mm must be nothing short of god sent. The Zeiss mystique, like the Leica mystique, appears to be a result of their legendary rendering of out-of-focus areas in part due to the lens formulations and in part due to the finely articulated 9 bladed apertures that approach a true circle. How much of that comes into play in architectural photography with its resolution demands to record fine details I don't know.

At the other end of your optical wish list, again while Sony certainly has some stellar offerings in their renowned "G" series of lenses I'm not certain they are much better than Nikon (who have made a LIVING in the long end department and have only recently beefed up their short end).

The tele zooms from Sony you've expressed interest in are, indeed, from all accounts I've read, extraordinary. But so are Nikon's. (It's always been funny that Sony had been dissed by many as having a limited lens line but the lenses that they do offer cover just about everything you need. How many overlapping coverages of 35mm or 200mm does a camera company really need? I mean if you've got a great lens that covers that focal length, enough already!)

Then there's the matter of PC control. Yeah you can get a Schneider or the jury rigged Mirex thing but will they be better than the THREE fine optics that Nikon has designed SPECIFICALLY for their camera bodies? Not sure.

Architectural photography is deliberative work from what I gather. So speed isn't of the essence. If Zeiss is what you want have you considered the Zeiss in the F mount. The Zeiss 18, 21 (especially), 25, 35 (now available in f1.4 as well as f2) from the examples I've seen on Flicker and Ken Rockwell's reviews are spectacular.

Still, the D3s' 12 relatively noise free megapixels is small. But from what I've been told supersized enlargements that are free of artifacts are indeed very possible from the Nikon unlike other similarly sized sensored cameras (with the exception of the D700 which has the SAME sensor). And the DR (also what I gather is essential in architectural photography) is also quite impressive (although here the Sony may outdo it).

The Sony would demand you stick around the ISO 100-320 range to remain safe in the noise and artifact department (again not a problem for well lit, non-moving buildings). But the Sony's additional 12 MP definitely give you a leg up in the resolution department. And as I've just mentioned, the DR department as well.

Here's my final thought....it's been a while since Nikon has announced anything at their upper end. The D3X was followed a year later by the D700 which was essentially the same sensor and image processor in a smaller, more affordable body. The 24.5 MP D3S has never seen a counterpart. And my gut tells me that Nikon may be due for something since it's been over a year. So my guess is surely Nikon wants to increase their minions among the large megapixel crowd. (If it's any evidence they seem to be really into 700 these days with their D7000 with it's new 16 MP sensor being annointed the new king of APS-C world and I wouldn't be surprised if a weather sealed version isn't far behind).

Why not wait a month to see what Photokina brings.

If Nikon doesn't offer any surprises in a smaller, more affordable D700X or something with it's now well established 24MP sensor...yeah...go ahead and get the Sony and its optics. (And, by the way, Sony may have some surprises of their own although an interview I read somewhere suggested that it probably not be in the FF area as they are clearly into developing their EVF/pellicle cameras and HD video capabilities and FF just isn't a high priority for them at the time. The article hinted that whatever FF they do come out with will probably also be a 'mirrorless' EVF design. But who knows?)

In any event, you'd have an affordable 24 MP system you desire and optics that would be a good match for nearly all of your photography in terms of resolution, contrast, color and that intangible we call bokeh. :D

Peter
 

douglasf13

New member
The A900 has better resolution in the greens than the D3x, but the D3x has about a stop better DR. For architectural photography specifically, I'd probably choose the DR advantage.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Kit
Not having used a D3x I can't give you a complete answer.

I changed from a similar set of lenses over to Sony a couple of years ago (D3 and D700) and I can't say I've regretted it for a single moment.

I always seemed to have to fiddle about with the colour of the Nikon files to get them right, especially in evening light, whereas the Sony files are fine out of the camera (lovely in fact).

As for the longer zoom - don't write off the 70-300 G lens - it's very light and relatively cheap, but if you can deal with the speed it's really excellent.

I can back up what Edward says about sensor cleaning - I've never done it, but the D3 was always getting stuff on it (the M9s I use now aren't much better).

all the best with your decision
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
I have no experience with Sony (other than they are one of my clients!). However, I have been contemplating the purchase of a D3s for awhile, to replace my now ancient D2Xs. I've put the plans on hold until the summer when I hope to see Nikon's next batch of pro DSLRs. It could very well be that a body will materialize to closer fit your requirements for more MP. If it does (and I realize that's a big "if"), you'll feel better about hanging on to your Nikon glass. And should you trade up to a D3x in the meantime, you'd still have a killer system with that body as a backup.

Maybe it's just my aversion to camera churning. Or maybe it's some other vague impression. But my perception of Sony as a professional camera pathway is that it's not going to be in the same league as Nikon. No offense to the Sony lovers/owners. Just a strictly biased and uninformed opinion.

Tim
 
Then there's the client's perception about 12 vs. 24MP!
No argument there. Every now and again I get shot with the Sony that shows what it is capable of delivering, and they are pretty impressive for a relatively small DSLR and probably getting in the ballpark of a Leica M9. Of course a perfect shot requires perfect technique (tripod, MLU, etc.) which is only occasionally practical. In the past, my general rule was that tripods were only necessary for big lenses or slow shutter speeds. With the Sony, they are always necessary. My monopod, which in the past had been reserved for long glass, is now with me all the time.

When shooting hand held I think the 24 MP actually works against you because they highlight even the smallest technical error (focus, shake, shutter speed), but locked down on a tripod I do think there is a difference.

One thing that swayed me to Sony was the in-camera image stabilization. There are a number of times it has been very handy, but it does degrade image quality (it kind of looks like the camera has a really aggressive AA filter or the focus was a bit off) and unless I am shooting in low light and slow shutter speeds I leave it off. It reminds me of Canon's image stabilization on the 28-135IS -- a good tool to have when you need it, but better left off most of the time.

A couple other things I should mention is the Sony is only a 12-bit camera, but has a pretty broad dynamic range. What that means is the color is a little thin, and it doesn't have the depth you might be used to with a 14- or 16-bit camera. To some degree this can be overcome in raw and post processing, but it has been a very steep learning curve for me. FWIW I use Lightroom as I was not consistently happy with my results from C1.

The last thing I will mention is the final push for me to buy the Sony was the cost of the D3x. While I have not used one, it just seems like way too much money for what it is. The Sony gave me comparable image quality at a fraction of the price in a body the size of the D700 with the best viewfinder I have ever seen in a DSLR and slightly superior to my F2 and F3. It seemed like a no-brainer to me. If I were to do it again it would be a tougher decision. The Sony is indeed a good value, but Nikon has a much deeper lens lineup and the CLS system.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Having shot a D3 and several Nikkor lenses I switched to the A900 and Zeiss zooms. I wanted the 24MP and use this camera for landscape.

Against what many found here I could not really get friend with the Sony. Also I did not like the handling and build quality of the Zeiss lenses - I ask myself what real photographer was involved in their design - but this is my personal subjective feeling and opinion. I also did not like the colors out of the Sony and when I got my H3D39 I sold the Sony as there was no longer need for a 24MP DSLR.

A few months later I bought back into Nikon with the D700 and all the 2.8 zooms 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 (VR2). And I am VERY happy with that camera and the lenses and the whole system. It is in my eyes the BEST DSLR system in the range above 12MP FF today. But I do agree that I would not be willing to pay the amount what a D3X costs for a FF DSLR!

I am currently waiting for the next strike of Nikon in form of the D800, which should have higher MP count while preserving same high ISO quality if not better than the D700. I will use this setup then for mobility in landscape and wildlife photography, while the H3D39 will remain for real high end work. The D4X will probably be too expensive again and for sure too bulky.

I am kind of on the cliff to also buy the M9 and get able to use my M glass again, but something tells me not to do this and wait one or two more years for the M10.

Well and finally - if I am really lazy or on a business trip, then I have now my almost perfect GH2 and M43 system for that purpose.

End of the day I did never regret that I got rid of the Sony and went back to Nikon. I found this rather a big relief.
 
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