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Sony A850 discontinued...

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Tony Beach

Guest
That seems counter intuitive to me (as opposed to changing your setting and NOT know what the effect will be). Please elaborate.
For one thing, I use uni-WB and other customized settings that allow me to see a more accurate histogram, and that would make the EVF appear green and dull. For another, I have a vision of the scene that will be accomplished in post-processing, I don't need or want Sony showing what one of the available controls on the camera will do to change what I'm seeing, I want to see the scene and not the camera setting's interpretation of the scene; I neither need nor want some tutorial being forced on me when I look into the viewfinder -- YMMV.
 

Lonnie Utah

New member
For one thing, I use uni-WB and other customized settings that allow me to see a more accurate histogram, and that would make the EVF appear green and dull. For another, I have a vision of the scene that will be accomplished in post-processing, I don't need or want Sony showing what one of the available controls on the camera will do to change what I'm seeing, I want to see the scene and not the camera setting's interpretation of the scene; I neither need nor want some tutorial being forced on me when I look into the viewfinder -- YMMV.
Then just zero everything out (ie make it look like the real world view) and adjust everything to you liking in post processing (that's what ACR is for). I use one of these to make sure my WB and exp is on the money....

http://nativedigital.blogspot.com/2010/09/datacolor-spydercheckr.html

I really think many folks are just making WAY to much of this...
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
Then just zero everything out (ie make it look like the real world view) and adjust everything to you liking in post processing (that's what ACR is for). I use one of these to make sure my WB and exp is on the money....

I really think many folks are just making WAY to much of this...
You obviously missed the part about using uniWB.

As for making too much of it, the optical viewfinder on my A850 is what I like to use and I simply have no interest in an EVF with all of its current issues. You can enjoy EVF to your heart's content, I will probably dump Sony over it.
 

Lonnie Utah

New member
You obviously missed the part about using uniWB.
No, I didn't miss it. The fact is, that's a technique that you started using because we had a fancy new histogram on the back of our digital cameras and the ability to custom set WB in camera. It's a learned technique and it didn't exist in the days of film.

With EVF, there will be new and different techniques and solutions to utilize. It's called evolution. To write off technology because it won't allow you to operate as you have in the past, when that same technoligy opens so many other doors is short sighted. If somebody here said they weren't switching to digital becuase it won't allow you to burn and dodge the print when printing to paper, they would be laughed at.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I hate to admit it, but, after shooting some pretty high quality OVFs most of my life, I find that using LCD/EVFs is fantastic, for the most part. I like seeing my DOF before the shot, and the live histogram makes things outrageously simple, so the large majority of my shots are exposed perfectly. I keep my camera in M mode + spot metering, and it allows me to adjust exposure until the histogram is dead on, and I can use the spot meter to check various zones. Pretty awesome. I almost feel like I'm cheating, as if that mattered! lol

That being said, there still is a bit of a disconnect that forces me to look forward to the LCD/EVF technology improving.
Hi Douglas
amazing that (or perhaps not). I came to exactly the same method for exposure with the A55 (m mode and spot metering - together with the AE lock) - fast and really accurate.

I know that I've been a 'no EVF never ever' kind of a guy like Tony, but I think that we all owe it to ourselves to try this stuff out and make a judgement for ourselves rather than trying to impose our normal work-methods on to it.

I've found shooting moving objects in single frame rather tricky, but I probably haven't practiced enough. On the other hand, going back to an OVF makes one feel like one's shooting 'blind' with respect to the exposure.

I'm not using the A55 very much at the moment (because I really do like big bright optical finders), but I'm certainly keeping an open mind with respect to the A77, and I'm pretty certain I'll be buying one and giving it a fair chance before rejecting it, the concept, and Sony.

all the best
 

Lonnie Utah

New member
I know that I've been a 'no EVF never ever' kind of a guy like Tony, but I think that we all owe it to ourselves to try this stuff out and make a judgement for ourselves rather than trying to impose our normal work-methods on to it.
Exactly my point. Thank you for being more eloquent than I am...
 

jonoslack

Active member
Exactly my point. Thank you for being more eloquent than I am...
Lonnie - you've been very eloquent, just that you've sounded too convinced!

It's human nature (mine anyway) to be resistant to something which threatens to change the way one is currently working, however, mostly it simply adds another string to one's bow. After all, there's no reason to stop using an OVF just because one actually finds advantages in an EVF.

Personally I'd like to have a hybrid viewfinder, which could swap from an OVF to an EVF - wouldn't it be nice if Sony managed that for the A99!
 

Lonnie Utah

New member
just that you've sounded too convinced!
It's not that, I'm just not willing, like so many other are, to write something off that I haven't seen or used.

Honestly, I think a lot of this boils down to the fact that "nice" or "pro" cameras "aren't supposed to have EVF's" and a lot of folks are mentally wrestling with that fact.
 

mjm6

Member
I think many pros are perfectly willing to evolve. However, they generally don't want to be forced to do that until the 'improvement' is actually an improvement. That was my point about Canon a few posts ago. They clearly get this, and generally do not introduce a major technology change in their pro cameras without first testing it on the consumer cameras for a while.

Hell, I still miss the focus screens of large format cameras (ever look through a 12x20 camera? They're not bright, but you can really compose something with that interface!), but I'm not going back to film for that.

I get the advantages of EVF, but I think there is a basic disconnect that some people have in composition, and it is important in some compositional mindsets (this is not terribly important in fast-acting reportage, for example, but it can be useful even there). This comes very much from the perspective and process of using a view camera, so if you've never gone there, this may sound a bit laborious, but it becomes a natural part of the vision process, and can be done rapidly and intuitively with practice.

The subject of the photograph is right there in front of you. Pull your eye from the camera and look directly at it. Move around and 'get' it's three-dimensionality. determine what the photograph should be before you even pull the camera up to your eye. Once you are familiar with your lenses and camera, you'll even know what the focal length will probably be before you start with the camera.

OK, now, pull up the camera and see how well the limitless three-dimensional subject works when placing framing limits on it. See what happens when the third dimension is flattened to a two-dimensional representation. If things aren't as they seemed or desired, the composition can be 'worked' in two dimensions on the focus screen, or even three dimensions with some movement.

EVF doesn't negate this approach, but it does disconnect the reality of the subject from the screen. While that will be very beneficial at times, for the way I photograph, I would prefer to be feeling the subject on the screen as close to the same way that I feel the subject when I look at it directly. Brightness, color, contrast are all compromised.

Theoretically, an EVF is a more direct representation of what will be captured in the file. That's great for a lot of circumstances, but I do not believe it is a better representation of the subject, and that is where my hang-up is. Don't get me wrong, I'll learn to use EVF effectively like any other tool that I have had in my camera bag over the years. I just think there is a distancing of reality that is happening that I would prefer to avoid.

I can just imagine trying to work in a dark place with an EVF; you are peering into the milky darkness of some cathedral somewhere and you see an architectural feature that emerges from the blackness, and you want to get a photograph of that. You pull the camera to your eye, and *bam* the magic is gone because the camera has adjusted exposure, color, and contrast to it's formulas before you had even a chance to do some basic composition with the subject the way your eyes see it. That's the disconnect I am talking about.


---Michael
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi There Michael
Theoretically, an EVF is a more direct representation of what will be captured in the file. That's great for a lot of circumstances, but I do not believe it is a better representation of the subject, and that is where my hang-up is. Don't get me wrong, I'll learn to use EVF effectively like any other tool that I have had in my camera bag over the years. I just think there is a distancing of reality that is happening that I would prefer to avoid.
Well, I quite agree with this, but as we've said, everything has it's pros and cons.
I can just imagine trying to work in a dark place with an EVF; you are peering into the milky darkness of some cathedral somewhere and you see an architectural feature that emerges from the blackness, and you want to get a photograph of that. You pull the camera to your eye, and *bam* the magic is gone because the camera has adjusted exposure, color, and contrast to it's formulas before you had even a chance to do some basic composition with the subject the way your eyes see it. That's the disconnect I am talking about.
You can get around that by changing to manual exposure - no *bam* required, and as Douglas and I were saying, that's exactly what we've been doing.

Still, I think that there is another point, which is that the word on the street is that the EVF on the A77 is quite a different animal - and that Lonnie and my point is that writing it off as a concept before seeing what they've done with it is a little premature.
 

mjm6

Member
Jono,

Not writing it off at all, I simply don't want it to be worse than an OVF. If it is, I'll be unhappy and won't purchase it.

However, at this point, there may not be any reason to be concerned, because I can hold on to the a900 for a while and be completely satisfied with it. I would like to buy a second body; an a900 style camera with 35+MP, but beyond that, nothing needs to change for me to be very satisfied for a long time (the M9 has convinced me that there is really a good bit more to gain out of the sensors Sony is using with an AA filter installed). By the time the a900 craps out on me, Sony may be in the 3rd generation of pro EVF camera.


---Michael
 

douglasf13

New member
I do agree that there is a bit of a disconnect with LCD/EVF, but, as Jono said, it's about trade offs. It didn't take me very long to adapt.

The funny thing is that, while using LCD/EVF options, I've actually taken a step back and switched to all manual focusing, because it is so much easier to do compared to any (D)SLR that I've used. Kind of two steps forward, two steps back for me.

Regardless, EVFs are inevitable in the majority of DSLR type cameras in the future. Sony is just getting there first.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I do agree that there is a bit of a disconnect with LCD/EVF, but, as Jono said, it's about trade offs. It didn't take me very long to adapt.

The funny thing is that, while using LCD/EVF options, I've actually taken a step back and switched to all manual focusing, because it is so much easier to do compared to any (D)SLR that I've used. Kind of two steps forward, two steps back for me.
Hmm not me this time!
Regardless, EVFs are inevitable in the majority of DSLR type cameras in the future. Sony is just getting there first.
Shouldn't Panasonic get most of the credit for the G1? or doesn't that count because it doesn't have a mirror?
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
No, I didn't miss it. The fact is, that's a technique that you started using because we had a fancy new histogram on the back of our digital cameras and the ability to custom set WB in camera. It's a learned technique and it didn't exist in the days of film.
Look, without uniWB there is no ability to see where the histogram is. WB gain is also something that film didn't have, so disregarding the effect of WB gain on the histogram (or the light meter, which was available "in the days of film") handicaps your ability to understand optimal exposure.

With EVF, there will be new and different techniques and solutions to utilize. It's called evolution. To write off technology because it won't allow you to operate as you have in the past, when that same technology opens so many other doors is short sighted. If somebody here said they weren't switching to digital because it won't allow you to burn and dodge the print when printing to paper, they would be laughed at.
As far as I'm concerned, you are just making excuses why it's okay for Sony to impose EVF on users who don't want it. You can laugh all you want, I really don't give a whit what you think.

There are no accurate histograms offered by any camera makers, but I would bet Sony will be the last company to offer one if it ever does start happening. This is what's wrong with Sony these days, they are apparently oblivious to what photographers want (for instance, just look at what photographers had to say about the user interface for the NEX cameras) -- EVF on all their cameras, dropping the A700 line with no replacement in sight, and dropping the A850 (and you can bet the A900 will not be far behind) are the kinds of things a consumer electronics company does; they are not the kinds of things a camera company does, especially a camera company that would bother to listen to photographers.
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
Theoretically, an EVF is a more direct representation of what will be captured in the file.
Unless you are using uniWB and dull settings, it is not. Ironically, that is exactly how most will not use it, so in practice (as opposed to theory) the EVF is a gross misrepresentation of what will be captured in the file.
 

douglasf13

New member
Hmm not me this time!

Shouldn't Panasonic get most of the credit for the G1? or doesn't that count because it doesn't have a mirror?
Yeah, I guess my comment was a slippery slope, although I'd imagine we could lump the Sony DSC-R1 in there, too. :)
 

douglasf13

New member
Unless you are using uniWB and dull settings, it is not. Ironically, that is exactly how most will not use it, so in practice (as opposed to theory) the EVF is a gross misrepresentation of what will be captured in the file.
I both agree and disagree.

I've been a proponent of UniWb with Sony DSLRs for many years, and I certainly see its usefulness in eeking out exposure perfection, but I think the advantages of an EVF in regard to realtime DOF preview and realtime histogram (highly accurate or not) appropriately outweigh it, for me. In non-static settings, I'm getting a higher percentage of acceptably exposed, non-tripod shots compared to any regular DSLR, so it seems to be a net positive for my shooting.

Surely, if you're a tripod only shooter, and you're breaking out the magenta filters with UniWB, an EVF may not be ideal, but I'm sure there would be ways to work around enough to be acceptable. How is it that Iliah Borg uses m4/3 cameras on occasion?

The funny thing is, Sony took a very conservative approach to DSLR making for the first few years after taking over Minolta, and only recently, with the SLT and NEX cameras, have they become more cutting edge, and their sales are apparently proving that to be a good move.

I see a lot of terms like "photographers" this or that in various forums, and I've never quite grasped it. Is one person using a Phase back manually more of a photographer than one using a Rebel in auto mode? I'd probably consider myself an average "photographer," but I'd personally be embarrassed if I couldn't make a respectable photograph from most any camera handed to me. Sure, I like my personal method of shooting, quirks and all, but I can imagine it's tough for any camera maker to reach every user's requests. Besides, it's only a matter of time before mirrored, OVF cameras are a niche product. ;)

All of this being said, it's all the quirks of various cameras that force us to choose various avenues, and it seems that Sony has chosen a direction, so I'd expect both a mass exodus from the system by some types of users and an even more massive adoption of the system from new users.
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
I see a lot of terms like "photographers" this or that in various forums, and I've never quite grasped it. Is one person using a Phase back manually more of a photographer than one using a Rebel in auto mode? I'd probably consider myself an average "photographer," but I'd personally be embarrassed if I couldn't make a respectable photograph from most any camera handed to me. Sure, I like my personal method of shooting, quirks and all, but I can imagine it's tough for any camera maker to reach every user's requests. Besides, it's only a matter of time before mirrored, OVF cameras are a niche product. ;)
Well, any photographer regardless of what they shoot wants the camera to get the hell out of their way when using it. That's what a good OVF does, and that is currently what EVF does not do, both in terms of user interface and in terms of image quality. Also, that is why we want higher end cameras, because they do not force us into cumbersome user interfaces to accomplish things we are doing on the fly, and again Sony had that with the A850 and A900 but hasn't really matched Nikon's D300 or Canon's 7D (even with their A700). At this point I have no confidence whatsoever that Sony gets this, so while I will wait to see, my patience with them is wearing thin and I can easily see going back to Nikon because they do "get it."

As for OVF becoming a "niche" product, the same can easily be said for DSLRs in general. Will electronic viewfinders ever really match optical viewfinders? Perhaps, but abandoning a proved technology for one that is currently riddled with flaws is nothing less than a boneheaded move.
 
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