Sony A77

[jonoslack]

Jono, when I'm shooting at high iso I'm shooting in bad light, I'm also usually shooting fast without time to manipulate my light. That usually translates as noise. What I saw was that those files looked worse per pixel than my 6 year old 5D at every iso from 400 up and that was when they had optimal lighting and I didn't have to touch the fill or brightness slider.

Thing is, I'm already uprezzing most of the time to print from my 5Dc for my fine art work. So I'm downrezzing to kill the noise the uprezzing again and at that point it does get rather silly does it not?

You don't need to downrez first - you just don't need to make the noise worse by uprezzing afterwards! You do need to change your workflow however.

It seems to me that by your logic you should be looking for less resolution and a large sensor - because that will always give you the best 'per pixel' 100% results.

My personal feeling is that this logic is why people are still using the original 5d, and the D700 - because they always make their comparisons looking at images at 100%, rather than looking at a comparable portion of the image.

Doing two wedding books simultaneously with images from D700 for one wedding and the A900 for another was a real eye opener. Quite against my expectations the A900 images looked much better when printed large book size than the D700 - despite their looking much better at 100% on screen.

all the best

 

[dhsimmonds]

I have just been advised by Sony UK that my A77 order is on track and should be delivered next week and yes it will include the latest firmware 1.03.

Fingers crossed!

 

[jonoslack]

I have just been advised by Sony UK that my A77 order is on track and should be delivered next week and yes it will include the latest firmware 1.03.

Fingers crossed!

HI Dave
Sounds grand - I like mine more and more (and so do my son, and my sister, both of whom have them).
I'd like firmware 1.03, but to be honest I'm not suffering any problems with 1.02!
all the best

 

[fotografz]

HI Marc
There's no doubt that there are benefits in the EVF - I quite agree with what you say about WB and low energy lighting.

But I think the jury is still very definitely out on the A77 image quality - not because I have any particular doubts / worries, but because the current firmware (1.02) was clearly optimised for the wrong processor (!!). RAW support is available for lightroom now, and also for C1, but this may also change with the new firmware.

The obviously splendid IQ on the new NEX 5n suggests to me that we can expect something similar from the A77, but I guess we'll just have to wait.

In the meantime I'm enjoying using a delightful camera.

all the best

Jono, I appreciate the candor in your evaluations, and am following your and others explorations now, and will do so in future ... mostly to apply to a possible A99 addition later. I'm not amongst the nay sayers because this is a new camera and needs time to get it up and running. However, I have jettisoned one bad trait I used to have ... early adoption ... not so much for the financial reasons (which is a factor), but because it HAS to fit the need, and if it doesn't, it is a huge waste of time and energy.

I also appreciate that you feel it is a delightful camera to use ... however, I tend to ignore such pronouncements from infectiously contagious folks like you and Guy Mancusio who tout their choices as the best thing since sliced bread ... until they sell it and get something else :ROTFL:

Best of luck, and keep the evaluations coming.

-Marc

 

[jonoslack]

I also appreciate that you feel it is a delightful camera to use ... however, I tend to ignore such pronouncements from infectiously contagious folks like you and Guy Mancusio who tout their choices as the best thing since sliced bread ... until they sell it and get something else :ROTFL:

Moi?
surely not

Actually, I'm slimmed down right now, and back to where I was a year ago (i.e. just Leica and Sony). I think the truth is that cameras have generally got so good these days that they all function pretty well. (that's my excuse for my general enthusiasm).

Incidentally, I'm sure you already found out, but the AF micro adjust does work for different lenses (just tested it). I haven't found it necessary with my new 24 f2 - which is a splendid lens on the A77 by the way (as is the 135 f1.8 Oh Yes!).

all the best

 

[Jim DE]

Jono, with the rumors being mentioned over on the rumor mill Sony site USA release date has been delayed once again till the last week in October or early November. You'll have the new throughly worn off your a77 by the time I am opening up my box

But, I am ready for it to arrive with a couple U1 high speed cards, 3 batteries, and 2 wall plug battery chargers sitting on my desk all charged up and ready for our big day over here. Of course by the now rumored expected arrival date I can cross fall colors off my 1st usage for my a77. The leaves here will mostly be on the ground by then. Peak time is Oct 17-24 here. But, there will be plenty of waterfowl present in early Nov and the breeding pair bald eagles will still be around in good numbers out at Conowingo Dam

 

[Mark K]

Was there a comparison between 5D and A77? I happended to have my 5D with my when A77 was locked up. From all aspects, including high iso noise, dynamic range, colour, my own 5D is inferior to A77.

 

[Jim DE]

Thialand floods now being blamed for the delays to the USA marketplace ..... Guess locust will be the next reason. We will be at firmware version 2.30 by the time they get here

 

[ptomsu]

Was there a comparison between 5D and A77? I happended to have my 5D with my when A77 was locked up. From all aspects, including high iso noise, dynamic range, colour, my own 5D is inferior to A77.

If you compare it to the 5D then this is a 6 year old design, so why wonder?

If you mean the 5D2 then it is interesting.

So which 5D - 5D2 do you mean ????

 

[das_schlechte_gewissen]

Re: Sony A77 - It is working for me.

Not really. If you can't answer the questions, that's fine, but please don't question the motivations of others asking qusetions. I don't have the camera and can't get my hands on one, so the only thing to do is ask folks I tend to trust that are using the camera ... Jono being one of them, among others.

Marc

I don't understand your answer. You've asked difficult questions about the camera and I said that I expect (=hope/being sure that something will happen) that some professional photographers will answer these questions because good answers to difficult questions are difficult by themself and maybe require the experience of somebody who works with cameras every day which most of us amateurs don't do. What's wrong with that?

 

[jonoslack]

BTW, regarding this as it relates to the A77 EVF, it is of great interest that the adjustments of color temp are real time in the viewfinder ... please correct me if am I wrong on this. If true, coupled with a decent high ISO in that 1600 to 6400 range, the A77 (or A99) would be exactly what I personally need for ambient candid work at events and on the street.

-Marc

Hi Marc
Sorry - didn't answer this - you are right on this - it's really splendid, and with the 3 presets, it makes that side of things pretty much spot on.

all the best

 

[das_schlechte_gewissen]

One of the problems that I see all the time with ISO is comparisons of higher megapixel cameras shooting at higher effective ISO than lower megapixel cameras because the people making the comparison do not understand what ISO is. Even though the "ISO" setting on the camera in both cases may be 6400, if you don't account for pixel density you're not comparing the same ISO.

For instance, I'd be pretty surprised if you shot two full frame images with the same lens, one on a Canon 5D mk II and one on the A77, at the same ISO rating, and then reduced the images down to a 1920x1080 resolution, that you'd be able to see any difference.

The 5D has the advantage of a larger sensor, so it is actually getting more light (at the same aperture and lens) than the A77, but it is also an older sensor, and so the advance in technology for the A77 sensor will likely make up for the difference, even though at the "same ISO setting" on the camera the A77 is getting less light on the sensor.

The issue is even more dramatic when you compare a 24Megapixel image to a 14Megapixel image and don't account for the difference in the number of pixels. ITs easy to do, though, just shoot the same image, and reduce the full frame down to something manageable and look at the images.

If you're comparing "%100 crops" of two sensors with different pixel densities, to do an ISO comparison, you're not comparing the same ISOs.

This may sound like a theoretical quibble, but it is anything but. When you shoot, you shoot at full resolution, but the final image is always at the delivered resolution. For the same size sensor, and the same level of sensor quality (e.g.: made the same year), the higher megapixel sensor is going to give you better ISO performance across the whole frame at the final resolution, than the lower megapixel sensor. (Say comparing a 5N or an NEX-5 to the output of an A77) However, if you do a "%100 crop" the higher megapixel image will look worse because you're measuring the resolving power of a smaller part of the sensor, and wasting noise canceling effect if dithering a higher megapixel image down to the working resolution.

Liza, this is a very good explanation of what is happening.
According to your explanation I'm pretty sure that the newer technology of the A77 will deliver slightly better image quality when being compared to cameras of older technology with larger sensors and the same amount of pixels for most output picture sizes.

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Exactly the set up I shall be using with my A77 when I manage to get my hands on it! Also for the same reason!

I have every confidence in the Sony RAW files having used the A900 and A700 with Capture One Pro. It is only a matter of time before the third party RAW processing catches up. Apple's Aperture is usually the last!

I have every confidence the a77 will deliver just fine as well - that's really not a big concern. I'm MUCH more worried about the OOF rendition of the 70-400G... In fact, I may go straight to a D7000+MBD11 and 80-400 VR; if that doesn't work pull out the stops ($$$$) and get a 200-400/4 VR II. The plan is to head to Uganda and Tanzania this winter, and the Sony 70-400 seems like it might be a disaster with grass and bush.

 

[dhsimmonds]

Jan

I travelled to Zambia and Botswana last winter with my A700, A900 and Sony 70-400G lens. This lens is stunning on either of these bodies and I am expecting the A77 with it's higher ISO capability and faster frame speed to be even better!

One thing I will say though, if you have another camera body take it not only as a back up but to keep around with a wide lens on. It is really surprising how many times I found myself grabbing the camera with a wider lens to capture action much closer than I anticipated.....like right next to the vehicle!

Remember the 70-400 becomes a 110-600 on the A77 (A700). It is just not wide enough for many potential shots.

 

[dhsimmonds]

Jan
The following images might better illustrate what I mean:
Image one (cropped)
A lioness at a little distance on a hillock using the 70-400 at 230mm 1/640 at F8 ISO 320. Note the OOF on this lens even at F8 and not even at full reach of this lens.

Image two
Another lioness using an old Minolta 28-105 lens at 50mm 1/160 @ F6.3 ISO 200 Taken right alongside her whilst she takes a pee on the track on which we were travelling. We were right alongside her. Not the sharpest of pictures due to my handholding whilst trembling!

 

[jonoslack]

Jan
The following images might better illustrate what I mean:
Image one (cropped)
A lioness at a little distance on a hillock using the 70-400 at 230mm 1/640 at F8 ISO 320. Note the OOF on this lens even at F8 and not even at full reach of this lens.

HI Dave
that looks fine - Jan - why are you worried about the bokeh of the 70-400 - is it supposed to be bad?

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Dave, it looks excellent in that lion shot! But you also have really good distance to the background so it's not close to focus and so get nice separation. I just looked at the crops at http://www.photozone.de/sony-alpha-aps-c-lens-tests/432-sony_70400_456?start=1 and generally reviewers note it gets very busy towards the long end near the focal plane. I've had other lenses in the past (and got rid of them) that rendered similarly, so I can believe it's perfectly possible. But it could be motion blur as well - it's so bad I can't tell. But it's a much greater concern for me than the a77 not producing good raw files.

And yeah, I'd carry the a850 with a 24-70 or 70-200 as well. Plus a Leica M9 for pretty much anything that doesn't require a DSLR.

 

[jonoslack]

Dave, it looks excellent in that lion shot! But you also have really good distance to the background so it's not close to focus and so get nice separation. I just looked at the crops at http://www.photozone.de/sony-alpha-aps-c-lens-tests/432-sony_70400_456?start=1 and generally reviewers note it gets very busy towards the long end near the focal plane. I've had other lenses in the past (and got rid of them) that rendered similarly, so I can believe it's perfectly possible. But it could be motion blur as well - it's so bad I can't tell. But it's a much greater concern for me than the a77 not producing good raw files.

And yeah, I'd carry the a850 with a 24-70 or 70-200 as well. Plus a Leica M9 for pretty much anything that doesn't require a DSLR.

Yeah Yeah - photozone zzzzz (actually, I find it very useful). It does only seem to be at the long end . . . and also close up - I don't think I'd be panicking.
Incidentally, I've been finding the 24-70 to be pretty fab on the A77 - 35-105 may not be the most exciting focal length, but it does work pretty well.

all the best

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Yeah Yeah - photozone zzzzz

I have to agree in general, but here they actually have something ugly to show that might be a problem in real use...

 

[fotografz]

Yeah Yeah - photozone zzzzz (actually, I find it very useful). It does only seem to be at the long end . . . and also close up - I don't think I'd be panicking.
Incidentally, I've been finding the 24-70 to be pretty fab on the A77 - 35-105 may not be the most exciting focal length, but it does work pretty well.

all the best

35 to 105 field-of-view is actually a very useful for shooting people ... not to distorted on one end, and a perfect portrait focal length on the other.

How does the 24-70 balance in hand on the A77?

-Marc