They (people) prefer the “big box electronics retailers “ .
Is that why Best Buy is having financial problems?
The Sony Store concept is quite interesting.
As far as "serious pro " who uses Canon or Nikon is getting more than just hardware ... I do not know what that means ... unless you mean grief
As a "Serious Pro", I owned Canon 5D, 1DMK-III and 1DsMK-III, and after that Nikon D3 and D3X ... The 5D couldn't focus its way out of a paper bag, 1D-MKIII needed the mirror box replaced but only after months and months of bad internet publicity forced a fix; the 1DX took way too much post work where the A900 out of the camera quality saved tons of time at the computer, and I had two Nikon AFs 24-70/2.8 lenses fail ... one couldn't be repaired after months of waiting for a warranty part from Japan and they finally agreed to send a new lens ... but I had to buy another in the meantime just to do my wedding work ... that one also failed.
Two Sony A900s and all of the Zeiss lenses on tough "Pro" duty for over three years now. Zero issues or failures. Just used them again yesterday at the Woodward Dream cruise ... and will this week on two jobs.
Sorry, but internet arguments just to argue mean nothing to me, real world performance does.
And this is from someone that actually doesn't care for 35mm DSLRs all that much ... they're just a tool to make money.
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Maybe there weren't any such specific communications, or maybe you don't recall them, but it would be ignoring the obvious as to which market they were going for.
I won't belabor the 'grief' comments as, I agree, internet arguments serve little purpose and are often incorrect, such the claim in the Fuji thread that Leica was not going to open corporate stores, which they promptly did a few weeks later. For what it's worth, I just had to send my A850 in as the AF was not working properly. Strictly anecdotal...
The A900 didn't have live view, a track record, nor the high ISO ability of the Canikon offerings such as the 5D or D700 ... therefore wasn't considered a mainstream wedding cam ...frankly, it was aimed at advanced enthusiasts, Minolta/Sony users, and more lens centric photographers like me with a history of using Zeiss lenses.
The A99 on the other hand is a product that was designed with that market in mind, with in-put from wedding photographers ... and is being seriously discussed on the DWF.
Anecdotal is mostly what we have to go on isn't it? However, a mass recall of the 1DMK-III wasn't anecdotal, was it? Neither was the IR issue with the M8.
In all fairness to the observations about serious pros by Robert . Sony is attempting to establish a beach head with there products in the wedding,event and portrait segment . This segment is of course huge ..but the vast majority are individual practitioners . Your work and equipment would put you in the top 1% . An important group no doubt as others look at what you might be using . But its primarily the 5DII/III market .
The segments I am more familiar with are journalism and sports . In these segments Canon and Nikon just dominate . Go down the list ..NYT ..Canon , Magnum ..Nikon and Leica , Getty,Zuma ,Sports Illustrated ..Canon and Nikon . I shoot in these venues ..so I see what they have in there bag . Plus I know several of the top shooters . Both Nikon and Canon have well established professional service organizations (NPS/CPS) that have taken years to develop .
No question you can both experience and learn about unacceptable reliability problems and shoddy service with any of the camera suppliers ....and both Canon and Nikon have had some spectacular train wrecks .
The difference is that they are out there delivering professional equipment and servicing the most demanding professionals . Sony is making a promise and this is the first time they have even hinted at setting up a professional service organization .
If I was an A900 user ..I would be nervous about ..where is the A99 . Canon and Nikon have both released pretty great cameras this year and the A99 will be an EVF ....which isn t something I would enjoy .
All I am saying is right now if you did a buyers analysis of the offerings and had to compare the professional offerings of canon and nikon against sony . Most would pick C or N . Sony has to prove they are serious .
DSLRs, OVF, and such are not in the Sony line up at all. Totally discontinued and relegated to other electronic giants such as Canon, etc.
The square format- Samsung might come up with one. They are the main driving force behind Sony' developments.
Glen, I am an a900 user and am not concerned in the least where the a99 is or isn't. I am far more interested in getting the best out of my a900 than what is or isn't in the Sony pipeline. Granted, I am not a professional photographer, but I still need quality equipment for the kind of photography work that I do.
I am far more concerned with the lenses that I slap on the body, then anything else. An a99 could hit the pavement running because of advertising, etc., but it would need a walker shortly thereafter if there were no decent lenses to support it.
I have an M6 that I use regularly, as well as the a900. I never felt the need for the M7, MP, M8.......the MMonochrome or the new M10. After years of just using an M6, and finally needing the long reach of a DSLR and buying the right lenses for the kind of work that I do, I realized that if I am unhappy with my pictures, it has more to do with me as a person using the camera than the kind of camera that I am using.
a900, a99, Nikon, Canon, Leica - it just doesn't matter what one uses, because if a person is a crappy photographer with a 24mp FF DLSR, he or she will still be a crappy photographer with a 36mp FF SLT, or M10.
Finally, nothing will kill the M. It will just become more of a boutique item as time rolls on.
Sony has canceled the A900 and has yet to release the A99 . It looks like they will be able to correct that at Photokina and they may make a successful move into the professional market (with the volume necessary to keep management happy) ..if not you could be looking at an ophan product line . The product line has to remain viable in order for Sony to continue to (1) apply new advances in technology (2) introduce and maintain new lenses and (3) offer on going service and support .
You don t care ..here is my experience with the Leica DMR ( what I consider a really great camera with glass second to none ) . Service became spotty as they only have a few technicians that know the camera ,then they started running into part shortages . Batteries wore out and were darn hard to replace . They stopped introducing new lenses and then they stopped selling them altogether . They stopped introducing new technology ..we got only one or two firmware updates and SD cards were topped out at 4GB . Some of my friends held out a long time before selling and suffered numerous electronic problems . The die hards now buy used R9 bodies because they are much cheaper than a repair .
I bought my DMR in 2007 and once had over 20 R lenses . I sold it in DEC 2010.
The point being that any product that doesn t continue to evolve and improve will die and it will affect you eventually . Thats why the A99 needs to be a success in the professional market .
Why do I care what the Pro s use ..because they bet their reputation on the ability to deliver . They are all capable of producing great images ..so it comes down to who delivers the goods . NPS and CPS support almost any newsworthy event and you can find help on site if you break a camera or lens or need a different camera or lens as a loner . For a new entrant into the sports,news ,journalism segment ..it had better have something more than some neat features .
It always depends on what you shoot and how you go about it ..maybe none of this is important to your specifics ..but it will be to the market viability of new sony products in the professional market overall .
Keep in mind that I am not predicting any specific outcome just pointing out that Sony hasn t shown a track record of competing effectively to date in the professional market . They are clearly a force in the much larger consumer segments .
In fact, Sony doesn't have a Pro level camera the likes of the Canikon 1 series, and probably never will. I seriously doubt they are interested in sports or journalism ... but now seem interested in the massive wedding/event/seniors/portrait segment, and providing nex gen video ability ... where the specs, lens spread, and price point fit the market. It's obvious that the 5D is the target, and if their AF does what the rumors indicate, then it'll out-perform the 5D-III which is experiencing some hiccups judging by the posts on the DWF. The question will be ... can they do it with an EVF camera.
Is it possible that Sony would walk away? I would say it is more possible than Canon or Nikon doing so ... possible, but not probable ... anything is possible. What is also possible is that Sony will be first in, best dressed with a modern camera that enthusiasts will embrace, and some Pros will adopt.
Meanwhile my trusty A900s just keep on clickin' on and on and on ....
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the answer is not can they? I'm sure they can - the answer is will they?
It's the same will they? as everyone is asking about bringing out decent E mount lenses.
as for being an M killer . . . it'll need an optical mechanical rangefinder to do that, and that seems a little unlikely.
all the best
Just this guy you know
I hear you, and you are absolutely right on the service issue. I never thought about that issue, so thank you for opening my eyes to that part of camera ownership. Interestingly enough, I bought the a900 to do a bit of non studio fashion work for my wife's fashion blog, and am now using the camera to take pics at my wife's triathlons (my wife has reinvented herself a few times, so I need a camera that can keep up with her).
The a900 and the ZA 85/1.4 is an excellent combination (it is also great with the ZA 135.1.8 and a Summilux R 50/1.4) but I am not sure that the a900 is the best camera for shooting triathlons or other sports, because the auto focus can be a bit slow. I use the ZA 85/1.4 at it does the trick for me 95% of the time. If I was a sports shooter, I don't know that I would have gone the a900 route, but the more I learn about the camera the happier I am with it. If only it was waterproof for a bit so I wouldn't be so afraid to venture out into the water during the swim portions of the triathlons.
I try to make do with what I have and over the years I have taken great pics (my standards - sports and otherwise) with a Leica M6 and 50/1.4 lux, and a Mamiya 7 ll. I am an attorney by profession whose practice is devoted primarily to adoptions and adoption related issues. My cameras are used to take pictures of the young women who place their babies for adoption and the adoptive parents who see their new babies for the very first time. For years I shot with the Leica and the 50 lux. Then I incorporated the Sony into the mix. The two cameras have served me well.
On another note, I should be a tester for Sony because I tend to take my cameras everywhere and use them for everything.
What I said was:
"Roger I think your analysis is spot on" and what Roger said was "Yes Sony was trying to break into the professional /advanced amateur category with the A900."
The rest of Roger's post that I considered "spot on" is here.
I used the A900 for weddings for several years, and, like Marc's it performed flawlessly - no complaints, lovely files, great lenses (blah blah).
However, I'm aware that if it HAD gone wrong, then I wouldn't have had a prayer of a chance of getting a decent answer out of Sony UK.
But it seems to me that the real problem is one of continuity - in the current climate of changing hardware and sensors this is really tough to achieve, I don't believe it's in Sony's DNA - they just don't understand (and from a commercial point of view perhaps they're right). Each new Vaio computer was completely different from the last - The A99 is going to have nothing to do with the A900. . . . now it appears they're going to bring out a full frame mirrorless camera and start another product line, which they'll drop, like optical viewfinders, the second that it seems prudent.
Olympus on the other hand, have just announced that there will be a solution for those that bought their top pro lenses 5 years ago - and, as you say, Fuji are clearly proud of the X-Pro1, and one can confidently expect it to develop as a range over the next few years.
If Sony really are going to bring out a full frame mirror less - I have no doubt it really will be excellent (and I've long since given in to the advantages of an EVF). But I doubt very seriously their ability or desire to create a developing system, with all that that entails.
all the best
Just this guy you know
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"... The Sony A99 is indeed aimed at event, wedding and portrait shooters, not sports or Journalism photographers. That it is specifically targeting the 5D-III is also clear indication of that."
Your immediate answer:
"They had the same strategy with the A900. How well did that work out? Maybe they fell for their own 'make.believe' motto."
That wasn't their A900 strategy. If it were, they would have included live view, and made a higher ISO camera to compete with the predominated cameras in that Pro segment ... the 5D and D700. The A900 was simply their FF flagship camera to keep current Sony owners in the fold, and use the sensor from the D3X in a $3K camera to conquest more enthusiasts ... which one scan through the GetDpi Sony section for past years will show.
But enough ... this is about a FF NEX and we've hijacked that intent. You aren't going to alter my opinion of the A900, and I'm not going to sway anything you believe in.
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The leaked images do look impressive.
(SR5) HOT! Sony NEX-5R and NEX-6 images leaked!!! | sonyalpharumors
So a few give a hoot about "corporate strategy" before buying a camera (or not).
How is your 7 doing Robert?
The AF is just as fast or faster than a 5D and 5D-II, and is more accurate by a country mile. What it is not excellent at is continuous focus tracking often used for sports ... for excellent focus tracking you need a 1 series Canon or Nikon ... which I know is bigger than what you want to shoot with.
"event, wedding and portrait shooters" were your words, injected onto my reply to Roger's definition of the market. Since I didn't use those words, it's in appropriate to use quotes.
In any case, Roger's definition of Sony's desired market - "Yes Sony was trying to break into the professional /advanced amateur category with the A900" is a superset of your narrowed "event, wedding and portrait shooters" market.
It's apparent that everyone agrees, as Roger said, that Sony "was not happy with the results" regardless.
Vivek: wifi and a standard hot shoe! And phase detection.
The move that Sony is making with the A99 is against the wedding market, NOT sports. So repeatedly referencing Sports Pros and their specific needs is not relevant to the A99 positioning. IMO, they seem to be attempting to change the game and be first in best dressed. We'll see.
The NEX is also gaining attention with wedding shooters because it is a small ... if they improve it along with the A99, it'll be an interesting back-up package for wedding shooters who have to carry two of everything anyway.
Frankly, I do not favor 35mm DSLRs in general, and Canikon specifically ... because I do not like their lenses. When I stop shooting weddings, is the day I off most of the 35mm DSLR stuff.
Life is too short to shoot with stuff you personally don't like.
My original 5D's focus accurately in any focusable light at f1.8, not just accurate but perfectly accurate every time (albeit after tuning). The focus with centre point is slightly faster in low light than the 1Ds3 I owned. They've been shot in heavy pouring British rain until the point where I have little doubt that the innards are rusted solid. I've shot with them where I couldn't see through my glasses the rain was so heavy, many many times. They've got well over 100,000 frames on each, I've had to replace the shutter on one. They've survived rain, drizzle, snow and being baked in the midday middle eastern sun which made a ballhead explode (Manfrotto 468MG, the one with the brake fluid system). I've shot them for over 7 years of pro photography from commercial, wedding, event, landscape, pano stitching, etc work.
And it means nothing. Because it's just a single persons experience.
What I would add however is what I would consider the bare minimum for a pro system for a photographer working in any field. A pro repair system with 3-7 day turnaround. Availability of rentals. Availability of replacements, not just mail order but in local stores. Availability of sufficient system history so that you can afford cheap but fully capable backup. Easy availability of peripherals. No long backorders on essential items.
It's not even certain manufacturers, but also within their product lines.
When you couldn't find a spare battery for a 5DII it wasn't a camera to be used by a pro unless you managed to stockpile because if you had a problem then you were screwed. If you need a D800e then at present it is not a camera for anyone who has to work on a deadline because you won't find another one anywhere if it goes down when you have the full team on set at day rates and you've promised 36 megapixels at high ISO to a client who's used to a MFDB look.
I remember when the flooding happened and many pro's were suddenly very worried because there was backorders on many essential basics. We all have networks of friends who shoot similar systems who we can borrow a lens from or a flashgun should an emergency happen.
Can Sony achieve that? They will have to if they want to be considered a pro system by anyone except those few who can afford to keep enough spares that it wouldn't be necessary (not looking at you and your M9 collection Marc ).
My preference would be a camera that doesn't need repair or rentals because I never got a camera back from anyone in 3-7 days ... except my S2 where a loaner was on my door step at 10AM the next day and the delivery guy picked up my S2 for Leica service.
As far as the 5Ds' focus issues ... I guess you were lucky ... the DWF is rife with the issue, and the big anticipation with the 5D-III was whether the 5 series AF was finally fixed. Most of my second shooters use a 5D or 5D-II, and when processing I often want to just scream.
BTW, I couldn't care less about Sony, Canon or Nikon ... I can't wait to stop shooting weddings (I like the work, hate the current business and financial environment of a lot more work for a lot less $), and without that work I have little need for any of them.
P.S., I only have one Leica M camera and a few lenses
Didn't you have a couple of them at one point while you sent the other for fixes?
I've got two weddings left then I'm out of weddings for good. Will help out a friend but I'm closing the business, my feet just can't do it any more. Annoying thing is that I'm at the peak of my game, I'm the most expensive wedding shooter in Israel at the moment and I'm turning away bookings. Just fed up of the painkiller overdoses, of the agonising pain, of the stomach lining almost completely gone due to drugs, etc, etc.
Happily I'm now running this repro studio and also teaching.
Not connected I know, but as I've mentioned the studio please excuse me, we've just started employing a new girl in the studio, she came to work today from a shoot with her D800, first time I've ever seen one in the flesh. What the f*** did they do to the ergonomics? I get the impression that it's impossible to hold in normal sized male caucasian hand! Honestly it was the most uncomfortable camera I've ever tried to hold. I just couldn't hold it properly. The thumb rest is non existent and the fingers are forced down so low that without a grip I can't see how you can balance it at all. Shutter release position is also all wrong. She said that it's more comfortable for her compared to her D700 and with smaller hands like a girls or Asian hands I can see why. I know the D700 however and IMO they've ruined the ergonomics of it with this body. Was horrible. I'm very glad the D800e we are buying for the studio will be on a copy stand permanently.
Another long and amusing thread on the rise of another "Leica M Killer". I wonder if Oskar Barnack thought his little invention would be the target of so many hopeful killers a century later?
- I have the GXR with M-mount camera unit. I'm delighted with it.
- I have the M9. I'm delighted with it.
- I've got the M4-2 in the closet and a CL coming along soon now. Old favorites for a reason.
- The mix of Voigtländer and Leica lenses in the cabinet is truly delightful.
- The X2 fills in the place where my Rollei 35S fits in film.
I'm stopping here. For the present anyway: there's no room left in the closet unless I sell some stuff.
Wake me if someone kills my cameras. ;-)
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Well, after months playing with a Monochrom, then the OMD and the RX100 - all great cameras, I'm now back shooting mostly with a pair of M9s, usually one with a 75 'cron and the other with the WATE. . . . I love it!
The idea that anyone is going to kill those Ms is very strange!
all the best
Just this guy you know
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I am waiting to see what Photokina brings ... Sony A99, Hasselblad's rumored new secret weapon, possible S3, and the M10 ... to many toys for my toy budget If my eye surgery is successful the M probably will get my $ vote if it retains the M IQ and offers higher ISO. It'll be added to the M9P.
The NEX is something I'm watching closely because it is a possible companion to the M using the same M lenses.
Otherwise I'm more interested in lighting and new conceptual photo adventures, than grueling weddings and more good/better/best cameras
"If my eye surgery is successful the M probably will get my $ vote"
Why all this "killer" mentality? Can't the cameras all get along with each other?
Al Tanabe3 Member(s) liked this post