Sony NEX: Is a Leica M killer on the horizon?

[fotografz]

Well you got the goods on me with the 8/9 press release . Those are the right words but not consistent with what they have actually delivered ..so I am skeptical . How did they let Nikon get a 6-12 month lead on them with the D800? With Sony sometimes the marketing comes from California vs Tokyo. Conceded that Sony has changed their tune ..lets hope they get it right . I look forward to seeing what they come out with .

What professional market are they speaking about ? I completely get the wedding side where the key requirement is generating pleasing results (color) with a minimum of fuss. But I don t expect Sony to make a dent in Photojournalism ,Sports against Canon and Nikon .

The other observation would be ..."EVF really ..you can't be serious “ ! I thought photography required actually seeing the subject .

As I down my Expresso ...I wondered ...why do these Leica , MF killer threads bother me ? I guess its because I don t need or want “better,faster,cheaper “ ...as the consumer electronics companies are eating up the entry level equipment (based on mostly irrelevant features and functions ) ...they take away from the pure camera companies (legends OK ) and in turn Nikon s D800 has knocked the starch out of the “new adopters” of MF . This slows the adoption of new technologies by the “camera “ companies . This is what killed the Leica R and is killing the MF business. Inevitable ..maybe . (sorry this is a topic for another day ).

I'm not too worried Roger. As I said, reports of "death" are almost always premature or false. They may be dead to some, but not all ... be it Leica or MFD.

The R system was a tough decision on Leica's part, but it was a money sapping proposition for Leica. A friend was in a meeting at Leica where the R came up, and one of the executives quipped that the minute they stopped the R line, Leica started making money.

Leica's newer positioning and retail strategy basically doesn't care what Sony, Nikon, Canon or anyone else does. It says so in their corporate strategy.

The Sony A99 is indeed aimed at event, wedding and portrait shooters, not sports or Journalism photographers. That it is specifically targeting the 5D-III is also clear indication of that. Sony has a way of stepping their conquest of markets.

Personally, I'm not a fan of video games, or cameras that act like one. So the A900 may be my last Sony. We'll see.

-Marc

 

[philber]

Roger, the photographic side of Nikon is a minority business for them, the bulk coming from semi-conductor manufacturing equipment. Nikon also has strategic ties with the Mitsubishi Group, so I wouldn't classify them as a photography "pure player", a la Leica or Hasselblad.

 

[Shashin]

Wow, yet another camera. Don't camera companies have anything better to do but make cameras? Don't photographers have anything better to do than go shopping?

I actually have a a really great camera that lets me do really great work. How does a new camera change that?

But it has been an exciting year. This will be the third M killer in recent memory and the second from Sony. We had the MFD killer from Nikon. I am just waiting for the Hipstamatic killer.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

I am just waiting for the Hipstamatic killer.

Please, oh Please!

 

[Vivek]

What is Hipstacmatic? Is it made by a "pure camera" company?

 

[Shashin]

What is Hipstacmatic? Is it made by a "pure camera" company?

Made by the three largest camera companies in the world--Apple, Nokia, and Samsung.

 

[peterv]

Interesting article by David Kilpatrick (authority on Alpha line) about the possibility of a FF NEX:

Will there be a full-frame NEX? | Photoclubalpha

 

[monza]

Someone forgot to send that memo to Sony ...

They had the same strategy with the A900. How well did that work out? Maybe they fell for their own 'make.believe' motto. It's not as simple as 'if you make it, they will come.' A serious pro who uses Nikon or Canon is getting more than just hardware.

 

[Oren Grad]

Roger, the photographic side of Nikon is a minority business for them, the bulk coming from semi-conductor manufacturing equipment.

This has not been true for years. For the last three fiscal years, the proportion of Nikon sales attributable to the imaging products segment has been:

FY 2010 72.5%
FY 2011 67.2%
FY 2012 63.9%

(source: Nikon annual reports)

This decline in share for the imaging products segment reflects a rebound from a severe slump in the precision equipment segment; the FY2012 share for imaging products is also depressed by the effects of the earthquake in Japan and flooding in Thailand.

Nikon is not a photography "pure player". But the imaging products segment is now consistently the largest part of its business.

 

[Taylor Sherman]

So - sounds like the hybrid camera is coming. Rather than "adapters" let's say it uses interchangeable mounts - one for E, one for A, one for ? perhaps.

Mirrorless. On-sensor PDAF. E-mount lenses auto-select an APS-C crop, A-mount full 24x36 frame.

I do wonder about the whole "square format" rumors from a few months ago, but I can't really fit that in here. Even making it so E-mount let you shoot square wouldn't work since the E-mount lenses all have 3x2 "windows" in the back. Anyway, I'll ignore this for now.

So - body size. Why make a mirrorless that's SLR-sized? But it depends on where they market this camera. I could see it being as big as the smaller Alphas, if it's aimed at the pros. But then I'm not sure why the compat with E-mount lenses. So I can only hope it's more like a Nex-7++. But, the "it will not be a Nex" proclamations make me lean towards something a bit larger.

Sensor. I think many people would be happy with 24 or maybe 36Mp at FF, and 12-16 Mp at crop. I wouldn't be at all surprised though if this thing had essentially the same density as the Nex-7, so 24Mp at crop, 48 Mp at full-frame.

So I know nothing, just speculating and drooling over the idea of a 48Mp full-frame back for the 2/24 Distagon ZA :-D

 

[glenerrolrd]

Roger, the photographic side of Nikon is a minority business for them, the bulk coming from semi-conductor manufacturing equipment. Nikon also has strategic ties with the Mitsubishi Group, so I wouldn't classify them as a photography "pure player", a la Leica or Hasselblad.

Ok fair enough but their businesses don t sell thru the same channels like Sony,Panasonic and Samsung . In those businesses they have consumer electronics that are sold right along with the cameras . So a customer might be buying Tvs ,DVD players etc right alone with cameras . They prefer the “big box electronics retailers “ . Nikon s camera business operates as a stand alone division . The only point being that Nikon clearly sees their camera business as part of the photographic equipment industry and its shows in both their products and how they service their customers .

 

[camping]

They (people) prefer the “big box electronics retailers “ .

Is that why Best Buy is having financial problems?

The Sony Store concept is quite interesting.

 

[fotografz]

They had the same strategy with the A900. How well did that work out? Maybe they fell for their own 'make.believe' motto. It's not as simple as 'if you make it, they will come.' A serious pro who uses Nikon or Canon is getting more than just hardware.

Sorry, I was tracking the intro of the A900 for some time because it was the first FF digital with Zeiss AF lenses after the demise of the Contax N Digital ... and I do not recall any strategic positioning or Sony communications specifically going after the professional event, wedding and portrait segment as suggested in this A99 communication.

As far as "serious pro " who uses Canon or Nikon is getting more than just hardware ... I do not know what that means ... unless you mean grief

As a "Serious Pro", I owned Canon 5D, 1DMK-III and 1DsMK-III, and after that Nikon D3 and D3X ... The 5D couldn't focus its way out of a paper bag, 1D-MKIII needed the mirror box replaced but only after months and months of bad internet publicity forced a fix; the 1DX took way too much post work where the A900 out of the camera quality saved tons of time at the computer, and I had two Nikon AFs 24-70/2.8 lenses fail ... one couldn't be repaired after months of waiting for a warranty part from Japan and they finally agreed to send a new lens ... but I had to buy another in the meantime just to do my wedding work ... that one also failed.

Two Sony A900s and all of the Zeiss lenses on tough "Pro" duty for over three years now. Zero issues or failures. Just used them again yesterday at the Woodward Dream cruise ... and will this week on two jobs.

Sorry, but internet arguments just to argue mean nothing to me, real world performance does.

And this is from someone that actually doesn't care for 35mm DSLRs all that much ... they're just a tool to make money.

-Marc

 

[monza]

Maybe there weren't any such specific communications, or maybe you don't recall them, but it would be ignoring the obvious as to which market they were going for.

I won't belabor the 'grief' comments as, I agree, internet arguments serve little purpose and are often incorrect, such the claim in the Fuji thread that Leica was not going to open corporate stores, which they promptly did a few weeks later. For what it's worth, I just had to send my A850 in as the AF was not working properly. Strictly anecdotal...

 

[fotografz]

Maybe there weren't any such specific communications, or maybe you don't recall them, but it would be ignoring the obvious as to which market they were going for.

I won't belabor the 'grief' comments as, I agree, internet arguments serve little purpose and are often incorrect, such the claim in the Fuji thread that Leica was not going to open corporate stores, which they promptly did a few weeks later. For what it's worth, I just had to send my A850 in as the AF was not working properly. Strictly anecdotal...

The point is that the wedding market wasn't catered to or solicited, nor was it obvious Sony was going after that segment, it is my market and I follow it closely on member sites such as the DWF.

The A900 didn't have live view, a track record, nor the high ISO ability of the Canikon offerings such as the 5D or D700 ... therefore wasn't considered a mainstream wedding cam ...frankly, it was aimed at advanced enthusiasts, Minolta/Sony users, and more lens centric photographers like me with a history of using Zeiss lenses.

The A99 on the other hand is a product that was designed with that market in mind, with in-put from wedding photographers ... and is being seriously discussed on the DWF.

Anecdotal is mostly what we have to go on isn't it? However, a mass recall of the 1DMK-III wasn't anecdotal, was it? Neither was the IR issue with the M8.

-Marc

 

[glenerrolrd]

Marc

In all fairness to the observations about serious pros by Robert . Sony is attempting to establish a beach head with there products in the wedding,event and portrait segment . This segment is of course huge ..but the vast majority are individual practitioners . Your work and equipment would put you in the top 1% . An important group no doubt as others look at what you might be using . But its primarily the 5DII/III market .

The segments I am more familiar with are journalism and sports . In these segments Canon and Nikon just dominate . Go down the list ..NYT ..Canon , Magnum ..Nikon and Leica , Getty,Zuma ,Sports Illustrated ..Canon and Nikon . I shoot in these venues ..so I see what they have in there bag . Plus I know several of the top shooters . Both Nikon and Canon have well established professional service organizations (NPS/CPS) that have taken years to develop .

No question you can both experience and learn about unacceptable reliability problems and shoddy service with any of the camera suppliers ....and both Canon and Nikon have had some spectacular train wrecks .

The difference is that they are out there delivering professional equipment and servicing the most demanding professionals . Sony is making a promise and this is the first time they have even hinted at setting up a professional service organization .

If I was an A900 user ..I would be nervous about ..where is the A99 . Canon and Nikon have both released pretty great cameras this year and the A99 will be an EVF ....which isn t something I would enjoy .

All I am saying is right now if you did a buyers analysis of the offerings and had to compare the professional offerings of canon and nikon against sony . Most would pick C or N . Sony has to prove they are serious .

Roger

 

[Vivek]

So - sounds like the hybrid camera is coming. Rather than "adapters" let's say it uses interchangeable mounts - one for E, one for A, one for ? perhaps.

Mirrorless. On-sensor PDAF. E-mount lenses auto-select an APS-C crop, A-mount full 24x36 frame.

I do wonder about the whole "square format" rumors from a few months ago, but I can't really fit that in here. Even making it so E-mount let you shoot square wouldn't work since the E-mount lenses all have 3x2 "windows" in the back. Anyway, I'll ignore this for now.

So - body size. Why make a mirrorless that's SLR-sized? But it depends on where they market this camera. I could see it being as big as the smaller Alphas, if it's aimed at the pros. But then I'm not sure why the compat with E-mount lenses. So I can only hope it's more like a Nex-7++. But, the "it will not be a Nex" proclamations make me lean towards something a bit larger.

Sensor. I think many people would be happy with 24 or maybe 36Mp at FF, and 12-16 Mp at crop. I wouldn't be at all surprised though if this thing had essentially the same density as the Nex-7, so 24Mp at crop, 48 Mp at full-frame.

So I know nothing, just speculating and drooling over the idea of a 48Mp full-frame back for the 2/24 Distagon ZA :-D

Indeed, a hybrid appears to be on the cards (y2013).

DSLRs, OVF, and such are not in the Sony line up at all. Totally discontinued and relegated to other electronic giants such as Canon, etc.

The square format- Samsung might come up with one. They are the main driving force behind Sony' developments.

 

[MikalWGrass]

Glen, I am an a900 user and am not concerned in the least where the a99 is or isn't. I am far more interested in getting the best out of my a900 than what is or isn't in the Sony pipeline. Granted, I am not a professional photographer, but I still need quality equipment for the kind of photography work that I do.

I am far more concerned with the lenses that I slap on the body, then anything else. An a99 could hit the pavement running because of advertising, etc., but it would need a walker shortly thereafter if there were no decent lenses to support it.

I have an M6 that I use regularly, as well as the a900. I never felt the need for the M7, MP, M8.......the MMonochrome or the new M10. After years of just using an M6, and finally needing the long reach of a DSLR and buying the right lenses for the kind of work that I do, I realized that if I am unhappy with my pictures, it has more to do with me as a person using the camera than the kind of camera that I am using.

a900, a99, Nikon, Canon, Leica - it just doesn't matter what one uses, because if a person is a crappy photographer with a 24mp FF DLSR, he or she will still be a crappy photographer with a 36mp FF SLT, or M10.

Finally, nothing will kill the M. It will just become more of a boutique item as time rolls on.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Mikal

Sony has canceled the A900 and has yet to release the A99 . It looks like they will be able to correct that at Photokina and they may make a successful move into the professional market (with the volume necessary to keep management happy) ..if not you could be looking at an ophan product line . The product line has to remain viable in order for Sony to continue to (1) apply new advances in technology (2) introduce and maintain new lenses and (3) offer on going service and support .

You don t care ..here is my experience with the Leica DMR ( what I consider a really great camera with glass second to none ) . Service became spotty as they only have a few technicians that know the camera ,then they started running into part shortages . Batteries wore out and were darn hard to replace . They stopped introducing new lenses and then they stopped selling them altogether . They stopped introducing new technology ..we got only one or two firmware updates and SD cards were topped out at 4GB . Some of my friends held out a long time before selling and suffered numerous electronic problems . The die hards now buy used R9 bodies because they are much cheaper than a repair .

I bought my DMR in 2007 and once had over 20 R lenses . I sold it in DEC 2010.

The point being that any product that doesn t continue to evolve and improve will die and it will affect you eventually . Thats why the A99 needs to be a success in the professional market .

Why do I care what the Pro s use ..because they bet their reputation on the ability to deliver . They are all capable of producing great images ..so it comes down to who delivers the goods . NPS and CPS support almost any newsworthy event and you can find help on site if you break a camera or lens or need a different camera or lens as a loner . For a new entrant into the sports,news ,journalism segment ..it had better have something more than some neat features .

It always depends on what you shoot and how you go about it ..maybe none of this is important to your specifics ..but it will be to the market viability of new sony products in the professional market overall .

Keep in mind that I am not predicting any specific outcome just pointing out that Sony hasn t shown a track record of competing effectively to date in the professional market . They are clearly a force in the much larger consumer segments .

Glen, I am an a900 user and am not concerned in the least where the a99 is or isn't. I am far more interested in getting the best out of my a900 than what is or isn't in the Sony pipeline. Granted, I am not a professional photographer, but I still need quality equipment for the kind of photography work that I do.

I am far more concerned with the lenses that I slap on the body, then anything else. An a99 could hit the pavement running because of advertising, etc., but it would need a walker shortly thereafter if there were no decent lenses to support it.

I have an M6 that I use regularly, as well as the a900. I never felt the need for the M7, MP, M8.......the MMonochrome or the new M10. After years of just using an M6, and finally needing the long reach of a DSLR and buying the right lenses for the kind of work that I do, I realized that if I am unhappy with my pictures, it has more to do with me as a person using the camera than the kind of camera that I am using.

a900, a99, Nikon, Canon, Leica - it just doesn't matter what one uses, because if a person is a crappy photographer with a 24mp FF DLSR, he or she will still be a crappy photographer with a 36mp FF SLT, or M10.

Finally, nothing will kill the M. It will just become more of a boutique item as time rolls on.

 

[fotografz]

Marc

In all fairness to the observations about serious pros by Robert . Sony is attempting to establish a beach head with there products in the wedding,event and portrait segment . This segment is of course huge ..but the vast majority are individual practitioners . Your work and equipment would put you in the top 1% . An important group no doubt as others look at what you might be using . But its primarily the 5DII/III market .

The segments I am more familiar with are journalism and sports . In these segments Canon and Nikon just dominate . Go down the list ..NYT ..Canon , Magnum ..Nikon and Leica , Getty,Zuma ,Sports Illustrated ..Canon and Nikon . I shoot in these venues ..so I see what they have in there bag . Plus I know several of the top shooters . Both Nikon and Canon have well established professional service organizations (NPS/CPS) that have taken years to develop .

No question you can both experience and learn about unacceptable reliability problems and shoddy service with any of the camera suppliers ....and both Canon and Nikon have had some spectacular train wrecks .

The difference is that they are out there delivering professional equipment and servicing the most demanding professionals . Sony is making a promise and this is the first time they have even hinted at setting up a professional service organization .

If I was an A900 user ..I would be nervous about ..where is the A99 . Canon and Nikon have both released pretty great cameras this year and the A99 will be an EVF ....which isn t something I would enjoy .

All I am saying is right now if you did a buyers analysis of the offerings and had to compare the professional offerings of canon and nikon against sony . Most would pick C or N . Sony has to prove they are serious .

Roger

NO disagreement at all Roger. Monza indicated the "A900 was aimed at the Pro wedding/portrait market and how did that go.", and I just disagreed with him ... that it wasn't, and said why. That I use one isn't indicative of that market at all ... The Zeiss AF lenses was my driving reason.

In fact, Sony doesn't have a Pro level camera the likes of the Canikon 1 series, and probably never will. I seriously doubt they are interested in sports or journalism ... but now seem interested in the massive wedding/event/seniors/portrait segment, and providing nex gen video ability ... where the specs, lens spread, and price point fit the market. It's obvious that the 5D is the target, and if their AF does what the rumors indicate, then it'll out-perform the 5D-III which is experiencing some hiccups judging by the posts on the DWF. The question will be ... can they do it with an EVF camera.

-Marc